New M1A from Spingfield

[Thrawn]

I wanna get a M1A but cant afford Fulton armory so I'm thinking of a service grade from Spingfield. The only real question I have is if the 7.62 nato is different from the 308 win then why does Springfield list both chamberings? Are the rifles chambered in EITHER caliber or is the difference in cartridge size neglible for these rifles? I don't have much experience in these rifles, but have always wanted one. Also, are they making them with bayonet lugs and flashhiders now that the ban is gone? Thanks :right:

[PAPA G]

LogansDad posted some excellent info about the ammo, but i foget what forum it was on.

i used to use .308 Winchester reloads for mine, before mil/spec ammo became common and cheap. they were approved loads with in pressure/bullet weight limits.

the really big difference IMO is that 7.62Nato has to be within certain bullet weight and operating pressure; .308 Win is loaded hotter for the sportsman and could cause significant damage to rifle and shooter.

[Gyrene]

Thrawn - YES, 7.62 x 51mm and .308 are different. Look in the reloading books for the specs (.308 SAMMI and 7.62 x 51mm NATO). DO NOT FIRE bullets over 180 grain weight! They were designed for 147/150 grain bullets, but match shooters use 168 and 173 grain bullets just fine.

I suppose that Springfield Armory (Commercial) makes them in either 7.62 x 51mm or .308, but I do not know that for sure. I do know that ALL of the ones that have come to our range over the past 3 or 4 years have .308 tight chambers, and what that means for you is that you need to shoot NEW 7.62 x 51mm or .308. If you reload, then the brass has to be resized in "Small Base Dies", at least in your first reloading of that brass. New brass of either 7.62 x 51mm and .308 should work, but they are different.

If you are lucky, the bolt and its parts will be USGI, if not keep your eyes open for USGI parts (commercial bolts and parts are where most of your problems will occur). If you replace it, the bolt needs to be checked for headspace by a competent gunsmith, with the appropriate .308 or 7.62 x 51mm headspace gages. The second most common problems are that the trigger group falls out of the rifle when you fire it, so consider getting a USGI Trigger Group to replace it. This and improper lubing are the reasons that the magazines fall out when you fire it, TOO! The rear sight should be changed out for a National Match, with a "Lock Bar", as soon as you can afford to.

Even though the owners manual tells you not to disassemble the M1A, you will have to clean and lube it! I can't understand why they do not tell you how this is to be done. Most of them (I haven't seen all of them so I don't know about the ones I haven't seen) come assembled DRY, and most of them will only fire single loading. They are so bound up with friction without lube, that they do not reliably cycle, and usually do not load the next round. Critical places to lube are in the Military Tech Manuals, which you should get (as well as several books on the M14 and M1A).

The Gun Store you buy from may or may not have people who know the M1A, so I would recommend that you go to a local rifle club where they fire NRA matches, and get one of their shooters to go over the proper way to clean and lube the rifle. In hopes of getting new shooters to join their club, they will generally help you out.

The places that absolutely have to be lubed are the Operating Rod Spring, the receiver rails where the bolt rides, the bolt lugs, and the Operating rod tab, the bottom (or top of the Operating Rod) of the barrel where the Operating rod contacts it, and the point of the hammer. YOU CAN'T ALL LUBE THESE PLACES WITHOUT DISASSEMBLING THE M1A!

DO NOT LUBE THE SEAR, OR THE GAS CYLINDER. Those need to be almost absolutely DRY, and should always be wiped dry before taking the M1A to the range each time.

Good Shooting!
`

[Thrawn]

Thanks for the info on the ammo and the springfeild rifle, That is weird telling customers not to dissasemble the rifle. The first thing I do with any firearm is completly take it apart, just gotta see what makes it tick. :smash:

[PAPA G]

i know Springfield tells buyers of their match grades not to disassemble the rifle because of the bedded action.

take my Standard grade apart all the time, no problem. the removal of the op rod is a beech, so i do not try to remove it or the bolt. i can clean and lube easy enough.

[Gyrene]

PapaG - Most of the Op Rods are not too difficult to remove, in my experience, and those that are, are that way because the guide attached to the barrel will not allow any side movement, some will pull apart with persistance.

Now, in my Chinese M14, it is so loose that it will allow up to 10 degrees of movement, and Op Rod removal and installation is a snap. Hey, the whole rifle is loose as a goose, but will out shoot most shooters. One of our Experts (who usually shoots from 445/500 to 475/500 fired a 459/500 on his first attempt with my loosey goosey Chinese M14, and that is better than I can do with these nearing 70 year old eyes.

What I am getting at here, is that everything on the rifle doesn't need to be so tight it is difficult to maintain it. Yes, the receiver needs to be tight in the stock (well bedded), and nothing should be so loose that it falls off! In the Springfield Armory (Commercial) M1A's, some drop their trigger groups and/or their magazines upon firing, and that can't be good, even though everything seems to be tight! In a firefight you'd be dead!

As I have stated many times, during the past 3 to 4 years, MOST of the Springfield Armory (Commercial) M1A's that come to the range have problems. Some we work out for the owners (lube and non-USGI bolts and parts), and some end up going back to Springfield Armory (Commercial) for several visits, before they seem to function well.

I know of one 1911A1 that made 3 trips back to Springfield Armory (Commercial), and two of those times they did NOTHING except hold it for a week or two and then return it to the owner, still malfunctioning exactly as before it was sent back the first time. After the first return, it looked as though nothing had been done, so the owner set up some lumps of grease that would have to be smashed or smeared if they disassembled the 1911A1, took a digital photo of the grease as deposited, returned it, and when it came back, he complained to them that he had proof that they did nothing. They did take it back again and the person responsible was on the phone talking to the owner three times before it came back to the owner in a properly functional state. Now it shoots like a Kimber 1911A1 would right out of the box (it cost more than the Kimber).

I just wish that Springfield Armory (Commercial) would bring their Quality up to the standards that their customers should be able to expect. They seem to have been pretty good about reworking faulty firearms, but the quality should be good enough that they do not have the added expense of reworking their firearms. One of the Experts in Quality published a book called "Quality is Free!" by Philip B. Crosby, and I am a firm believer in that!

`

[Thrawn]

So would I be better off getting a rifle from somwhere else? Should I stick to rifles with USGI parts only? I'm on a budget, but I also want to get the most bang for my buck. I'm not looking for a rifle that can pick fleas off a woodchuck at 2000 yds., just a rack grade sevice rifle since I won't plan on scoping it. I want it to be reliable and fairly accurate.

[PAPA G]

Springfields good, as are the rest of them. mine is nearly 30 years old, and all GI, even got the cutout in the stock for the selector!!!

all GI parts is best if you can get them. trouble is that as the demand for these rifles go up, the supply of reasonable priced parts go down.

[Gyrene]

Thrawn - THE SPRINGFIELD SHOULD BE JUST FINE. What I am saying about the M1A, is to watch for the failures I have talked about, and get USGI parts when you need to replace any parts. DON'T LET MY COMMENTS SCARE YOU OFF THE SPRINGFIELD ARMORY (Commercial) M1A, just realize you may have some, or most, of the problems I have talked about. There are plenty of good people that will help you get everything working and advise you how to keep everything working.

Right at the present time I am looking at a used Springfield Armory (Commercial) M1A that is a loaded one, usually advertised in Shotgun News for $1,499.95, with the Chrome barrel. It has at least $500.00 Plus of added goodies including a Springfield Scope, and the guy needs the money. His price to me is too good to pass up, but I won't have the cash available for at least a month, and I am hoping he can wait.

PapaG - The first ones were the ones that made the name, and I am glad you got one, and that it is exactly what you paid for and wanted. I know too many people who invest their money in what could be as good as the one you got, but it turns out to be one headache after another. I think it is only fair to let them know those possibilities, and at the same time offer up what we have found that corrects the problems. The M1A's are excellent rifles, but should be without the failures that we at our rifle range have seen.

[allan1898]

I haven't had any problems at all with my SA. I'd certainly buy it again. SA does recommend that you not remove the action from the stock if it has been glass bedded, as you could damage the bedding. But you can still clean everything that needs it.

[PAPA G]

nor am i trying to degrade your experience and observations with the M1a, i beleive most troubles with the M1a is tracible to operator malfunction and ignorance of the ways of the rifle.

only story i can offer years ago a new-b blew the op rod out of his rifle, swore never again. in my discussion he used ammo tailored to his .308 bolt action match rifle. way to hot for the M1a, he figured it would be fine in the M1a. he was convinced that M1a was a bad rifle.

i sincerly beleive that an M1a newbie should hook up with an experienced owner, and learn about his rifle before he does anything with it.

[Gyrene]

THE M1A's HAVE TO BE DISASSEMBLED FOR GOOD CLEANING, AND LUBRICATION!!!

THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN PUT ENOUGH LUBRICATION ON THE OP ROD SPRING WITHOUT TAKING THE RECEIVER OUT OF THE STOCK!!!

`

[Thrawn]

Thanks Gyrene for the info, regardless of what SA says if I buy any firearm (new or used) the first thing I do is inspect it, and thats hard to do without disassembly. call me crazy, but I like to make sure my guns go bang not BOOM. :insane:

[Gyrene]

Thrawn - Please, when you disassemble the M1A, let us know the state of lubrication it has. I am sure you will find that there is a small amount on the receiver, and maybe a drop or two of oil in the bolt, but I doubt that you will find any lube of any kind elsewhere. The Op Rod Spring will likely be as dry as a popcorn poof (flatulence), as will the Op Rod itself.

If you get the M1A new, buy any or all of the tools, all of the extra magazines, and 2 slings they allow on the special deal, if you can afford them. You will not find a better price elsewhere, and the quality is good. Of course, the Springfield Armory (Commercial) regular price is a bit higher than you can find elsewhere.

[Thrawn]

Thrawn - Please, when you disassemble the M1A, let us know the state of lubrication it has. I am sure you will find that there is a small amount on the receiver, and maybe a drop or two of oil in the bolt, but I doubt that you will find any lube of any kind elsewhere. The Op Rod Spring will likely be as dry as a popcorn poof (flatulence), as will the Op Rod itself.

No problem, just as soon I get the cash together. :cheer: :right:

[Thrawn]

www.fredsm14stocks.com
Fred's FAQ


What's a Good M1A to Get?

The standard of M1As is the Springfield, and they are getting up a little in price, although used ones can be found, and generally, with little use (shameful of gun owners not to become proficient, but their loss is your gain). If you buy a new one, you can sometimes take advantage of special offers by Springfield on scopes and accessories that in effect brings the price down.
M-K Specialties is rapidly developing a reputation in the field, first rewelding original GI M14 cut receivers; most recently, producing an all-new forged receiver. The verdict is not in on these, although the company's reputation would suggest a good product. As in the initial stages of any new commercial product, shipping delays are causing disappointment among eager buyers. Be prepared to wait a while if you order one. [Bad news: recent info indicates that MK is having a problem with BATF, and I would not count on any of their rifles being available until further notice.]
When buying a used M1A, look for GI parts. At least check the trigger group, op rod, and bolt, all of which should carried GI parts numbers and maker's stamp - if you don't know what they look like, check a friend's M1A, or cruise the gun shows (while they are still around).
Barrel wear is something that only an experienced person can judge by eye, and then only roughly, by checking the lands just ahead of the chamber. On an M1A, you’ll need a reflector to look up the bore from the chamber end. Best is a commercial or GI throat erosion gauge (a “T.E. gauge”), which a friend may have, or, rarely, you can borrow at a gun show. A ‘throat’ of ‘0’ up to ‘1’ is considered nearly new; ‘4’ would be reject by the military for match use; ‘6’ would be barrel replacement time. I routinely shoot mine to a ‘9’ or more with acceptable accuracy out to 500 yards, so I suggest wringing the barrel of all its useability before you swap it out for a new one. When you do replace, replace with an original US GI chrome-lined barrel for max barrel life.
Because most M1As are shot very little by their owners, you have a good chance of getting a rifle that has seen little, if any use. If the rifle otherwise looks 'new', and no gauge is around, you won't be taking too much risk by buying it.
With mags so expensive, you can save money getting only two. Four would be better, but more than 4 is not needed if you have ammo stored in bandoleers and strippers.
Other makes besides Springfield: Federal Ordnance, sneered at by the armorers, but the one I had worked great. The early ones had all GI parts; after several thousand were made, Chinese parts started appearing until, in the last ones made, all the parts were Chinese, including the receiver.
If you are really lucky and come across a receiver marked “Smith”, snap it up! It’s likely forged!
Chinese rifles? There’s enough controversy that I’d stay away from them unless the deal is irresistible.
If you can’t afford an M1A now, cheaper rifles that a rifleman would select for real use would be (in order of increasing cost) any British Enfield, with the No 4 with its peep sight a first choice ($100+); an SKS ($150+), any make; a CMP M1 Garand ($400), or an FN-FAL ($500+). Any would be good choices for an intermediate or a backup gun you could lend to a friend if a pinch comes.
Ammo for all the above is cheap, and you should “buy it cheap and stack it deep” as one fellow so eloquently put it. To put it in perspective, I talked with an RGC member who built an M1A for another member, and he quoted the excited new M1A owner as saying, “I’m really set now, got the rifle and 3000 rounds of ammo!” The armorer paused, got a smile on his face, and said “A 100,000 rounds is - nothing!” Okay, you may not need 100,000 rounds, but you may need to lift your expectations a bit. Five or ten thousand rounds will be in reach, and would be a good investment. When it comes to ammo, think big!

[Gyrene]

Thrawn - Thanks for the article.

I believe that Fred is saying mostly the same as I have said, and I didn't get my information from Fred, so that is somewhat comforting, to me.

He did not address ARMSCOR M14's, but I will. ARMSCOR M14's are OK for shooters, and OK as military standard issue rifles. I have never seen one in the winners circle, except at a local match with no really top shooters. They are good solid rifles and unless you want to win at state or national level, they are a good buy, as long as they are under $900.00 or so. Most have been made with USGI parts as much as possible.

I had to give up on the M1A that was available to me for a good price recently, but I did succeed in getting a friend to buy it. He had asked me for time to discuss the M1A because he was thinking about buying one. We did not discuss anything except the availability of the one I was looking at. He called the guy, and yesterday they made arrangements to go to an FFL to make the sale/purchase. My friend said he was pretty much satisfied that this would be a good shooter. The guy who is selling it told me he didn't know it could shoot as good as my friend could shoot. Both are happy.

[7mmag6]

Out standing thread, I have a m1a coming, national match version(springfield) with stainless barrel, it should be here this week. I have talked to a few owners and it seems to me the quality is spotty, now, Im a little nervous after researching it on the web. From what Ive read is the op rod is sometimes soft and the extractor is cast and prone to failure. As a matter of fact ,if I can find it Ill post it< one person who is a long time user of springfields maintains the recent batch(2001-2004) is complete crap. with numerous failures of extraction and complete reciever failures( explosive), so Im a little wee bit nervous. i bought it because I could get a good deal from my provider and wanted to do some match shooting. But the more I read the more Im not sure I havent bitten off more than I can chew. ill post some pics of it and Ill probably have a ton of questions for gyrene before I try to shoot it. i think the first thing Ill do is call springfield and try and get the skivvy on the problems and reliability issues. That being said, dismantling a match rifle as soon as I get it makes me nervous also.I havent seen an m-14 for 30 years, ( at one time I could field strip it in my sleep, but that was a long time ago bros) so im operating on the fly, not knowing quite what to expect, maybe I should stick to aks, well any rate good read and ill be back as soon as it arrives----thanks

[7mmag6]

here is the site I mentioned

http://www.thegunzone.com/m1akb.html

[7mmag6]

Read all the other entries on this forum, looks like there is a lot of very knowledgable people here I can ask questions of, Im still nervous about what i should do to begin with, (especially after the bucou bucks I shelled out) should I change the op-rod right off the bat?