Dont laugh

[kuthax]

I used to think I knew a decent amount about firearms. Then I started doing some research on prices for a chacter I made for G.U.R.P.S.. For those of you who dont know what that is it is a Role Playing Game similar to Dungeon and Dragons. Anyway while doing that research I found I knew pratically nothing. Now I am not ashamed to admit that. Instead I decided to fix it. That is how I came here. My first question is what difference does the grain measurement make? Example 115 grain 9mm bullet and 120 grain 9mm bullet. Thank you to any and all who reply.

[Oxford]

Ok kuthax, I'll keep it simple for you.

kuthax...a 115 grain load of powder goes BANG! :target:

A 120 grain load of powder goes BANG BANG! (You see...it's a little louder...and a little more powerful.

[Oxford]

My recommendation to learn a whole lot more than from my post above is to go to the following link provided by Remington Arms Co. This link, referred to as Remington Ballistics, is an excellent guide to learn about different loads for different ammunitions.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/resource/ballistics.asp

:right: Good luck!

[Big Dog]

A fairly simplistic way to think of it is that a lighter bullet will generally be faster and flatter shooting over a specific distance, while the heavier bullet will be slower, but may have greater kinetic or "knock-down" energy.
Looking at various load data, you'll see that the faster hollow points are usually lighter in weight, and will usually be designed to expand more quickly, dumping their energy into the target without going all the way thru.
The heavier solid lead slug will penetrate more deeply (better for some game), but runs the risk of penetrating all the way thru.

In actuality, there are many variables in this. That makes the study of ballitics really interesting!

I didn't think folks still played GURPS. I remember it coming out in my gaming days - the early eighties!

[kuthax]

So basically if I want that "man stoppin" power, I may actually want to invest in the couple of extra bucks to get the higher grain. That is of course instead of just buying a higher calibur firearm. The next question then would be could you in theory (physics of the holding capicty being "ignored") get a .38 bullet to give as much punch as a .45? Or (reaply those capicty rules) is that one of the main reasons that you have the higher calibur bullet is to hold the extra grain
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Big Dog, yes there are still people who play GURPS. My current gaming group consits of a wide range of ages. The oldest two are in their late 30's and early 40's. They are the two that own all the books for GURPS and just recently got us younger ones playing it. Most of the rest of the group is 20 and younger. I am 24 but actually fit somewhere between the old guys and the kids. I would like to thank my parents for that.

I used to play Dungeons and Dragons, AD&D, Cyberpunk and Shadowrun and every once in a while Gamma World back before I got my first Playstation and Resident Evil..just took a break from GTA San Andreas

[Big Dog]

You enter a real netherworld when you start comparing light&fast with heavy&slow. Basically, it's the old 9mm vs. 45ACP question - each has it's pros and cons, it's adherants and detractors.
Theoretically, a .38 bullet can develop the same energy as a .45 - depends on the loading, velocity, etc. of each. A .357 magnum is certainly more powerful than an old .41 rimfire. But it can't touch a .45 Win Mag.
Bullet design factors in too. A .22LR that hits a vital spot and stays in the body can kill, when a .357 Magnum that just punches thru muscle wouldn't.
Lots a factors to consider!

[Troy]

that's where individual preferences and opinions come into play. you only really learn what you like and are comfortable with through experience. take advertising with a grain of salt, but try talking to folks on forums(like your doing here), gun ranges, and the sort for info. the kind of folks who have nothing to lose or gain by speaking to you.

Originally Posted by Big Dog

A .22LR that hits a vital spot and stays in the body can kill, when a .357 Magnum that just punches thru muscle wouldn't.
Lots a factors to consider!

thats what dice rolls are for BD :right: somebody just needs to come up with a workable combat system with realistic critical hit modifiers

[dinengurth]

Originally Posted by Big Dog

A .22LR that hits a vital spot and stays in the body can kill, when a .357 Magnum that just punches thru muscle wouldn't.
Lots a factors to consider!

A .22LR to the brainpan will make scramby eggs...One in the head and one in the chest, just to be sure :assult: .

take it easy

[Big Dog]

In my early Navy days, we had a good hobby and gaming shop outside the back gate at great Mistakes, Ill., heck, sometimes we stayed overnight on weekends, crashing in the basement "play room"! Good days.
I was into AD&D and RuneQuest, with a little Space Opera on the side.
That led into collecting swords & knives, then that into collecting guns.

My Navy Days also influenced my preferences in guns. I carried a Colt 1911A1 .45ACP on guard watch, and we used the M-14 and the Rem. 870 shotgun. Well, I have the .45 and the 870! The M14 remains out of my price range though. I like bigger calibers, though I do have a couple 9mm pistols.

[dinengurth]

I never really got into D&D, but I did play Magic The Gathering, still do too. The only AD&D spin off I've played was on PC, Baldur's Gate.

[Big Dog]

At one time, SSI and TSR got together, and brought out a series of AD&D-based computer games (The "Gold Box Series") that were based on some TSR books I had read. Excellent games!
I have them for the Commodore 64, and had a bad habit of using my trusty Sector Editor to . . . uh . . . enhance my characters. I thought of the "Necklace of Magic Missiles" as a grenade vest - soon all my characters were packin' major heat! Waltzing thru the Kobold packs and Orc hordes, and finally nailing the Big Guy!
Got my come-uppance when I transferred my beefed up characters to a later game, and they got turned into Vampires! Still don't know how that happened - a glitch in the data. It's a bummer when the fight starts, and my team begin putting the bite on each other . . . :insane:

[kuthax]

Originally Posted by Big Dog

At one time, SSI and TSR got together, and brought out a series of AD&D-based computer games (The "Gold Box Series") that were based on some TSR books I had read. Excellent games!
I have them for the Commodore 64, and had a bad habit of using my trusty Sector Editor to . . . uh . . . enhance my characters. I thought of the "Necklace of Magic Missiles" as a grenade vest - soon all my characters were packin' major heat! Waltzing thru the Kobold packs and Orc hordes, and finally nailing the Big Guy!
Got my come-uppance when I transferred my beefed up characters to a later game, and they got turned into Vampires! Still don't know how that happened - a glitch in the data. It's a bummer when the fight starts, and my team begin putting the bite on each other . . . :insane:

That must have really sucked. I have played AD&D 2edition, with and without Players Options, Dungeon and Dragons d20 (and various "world" editions like Everequest), Rifts, Robotech, Shadowrun, Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, and now GURPS. Played a few computer game versions of D&D stuff. Right now I am kicking the crap out of Dynasty Warriors 4 on the PS2.
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Thank all of you for answering my questions on grain. Next question is more about opinion. My character in GURPS has had no actual training in using a gun. With the rules in GURPS however I can still use one defaulting to my DX (dexterity). After all penalties I get from the lack of training my skill with a gun is a 12. Meaning that I need to roll a 12 or less on 3 six sided dice to hit the target. The guy is kind of a whimp so he wont be able to handle something with lots of recoil. With those things in mind what would yall recomend for this quy. Money is not really an issue. Me as my character has roughly $126,000.00 to spend on equipment. This is after I have bought him a car and a house, so basically I can spend it all on weapons if I wanted to. Legallity is still an issue. He would want to stay within the confines of the law with permits and such. Mainly because his job is basically a private security officer with some fringe benifits.

[Big Dog]

In the 'real world', many security companies limit their personnel to the venerable 4" .38 Special revolver. Depending on how much of a stickler for realism your Game Ref is, you might be able to upgun to a .45, or maybe a hi-cap 9mm. Even the GI .45 is easily handled by most folks with a little practice. I know a twelve-year-old kid who can clean my clock with his custom .45ACP pistol. He shoots in CAS competition too - the kid's a 'natural'!

[kuthax]

For the purposes of the game on of our fringe benifits from the company is there is only one limit to what gun we can use. The limit is that it must be legal by local and federal government.

[smoker]

I've played GURPS for years. It actually has a pretty realistic firearms system, if you take into account the damage multipliers for various hit locations. A .22lr will almost certainly kill you if it hits vitals or brain, but a .50bmg can't kill you if it hits your arm, although you can kiss that arm goodbye.

The only downside to the GURPS system is it's a little outdated. Good, modern hollowpoints expand pretty reliably, but GURPS only gives them a 50% chance to expand. GURPS also doesn't allow for things like +P ammo, various bullet weights, etc., which should make at least a slight difference. Also they have an arbitrary caliber at which big-bore bullets do x1.5 damage, I think something like .40, yet in real life a .357 has better stopping power than a .45. The prices are waaay off nowadays.

It's interesting to compare it to other systems such as d20 Modern. d20 just doesn't lend itself to realism, especially where firearms are concerned. A .22lr has the same stats as a .380, and a 9mm has the same stats as a .45. A .50 BMG has a range increment of something like 90 ft.(!!!) I mean, some ballistics tables for those don't even include data below 100 YARDS. Their masterwork ratings are completely arbitrary. Glocks are masterwork, but an H&K SOCOM isn't? d20 is OK for cinematic stuff though, but if you're a gun purist like me, pick something else.

One thing I've found is that RPGs are much more fun if you play something you know little or nothing about. That's why I still like D&D, because magic can be whatever you like. When realism isn't such a concern, you're freer to just have fun with it.

[Big Dog]

Yep, the game developers are seldom experts on the weapons they include in the game. "Realism" can vary widely. The most realistic are those that have actual military or LEO people oversee the weapons deveopment and programming. But, some just don't put much resources into it. They can be ridiculously arbitrary. Others can be too realistic - it gets so cumbersome it adversely affects the game play and isn't as much fun!
That's one reason I started getting into the real thing - I can see what the different calibers and loads do on various targets and media. And there's just no substitute for "real steel"!

[kuthax]

To smoker: I dont play d20 modern, saw to many problems with standard d20 D&D to want to mess with it. Me and my friends have house ruled to fix most of the problems. And I dont have to worry about GURPS outdated (and sometimes overrated) prices. My game master is allowing me to find and use prices elsewhere as long as I show him.
__________________________________________________ _______________To Big Dog and smoker: Know the feeling of poor comparison of gaming book stats versious the real thing. Although most of mine comes from dealing with things like swords and axes. I actually found a book the stated a great sword (like a claymore) weighing less than a katana. The sadest part was a guy that I play with actually bought into it, utill I showed him my swords. He then agrred that the was no way that my better made katana weighed more than my "barbarain" sword.

give your PC a 12 gauge pump shotgun and a .45 or .357 and you should be heavily armed enough for anything..just as you would be in real life