New to Cetme's

AKagain · 11-28-2004, 10:36 PM

In what some would call a fit of idiocy I traded my SAR-2 (I was running low on 5.45 ammo anyway) on a used Cetme... the guy assured me it was a fine gun... took it to the range today and it shoots well with 150gr. fullpatch ammo.
Do any of you know how well it'll possibly shoot/function with lead point ammo, say, ummm, for hunting? as an aside on that, what sort of chamber pressure can the delayed blowback action handle?
Also- what makes the most sense when it comes to installing a scope?
How is the accuracy of any of your cetmes?
etc, etc, newbie questions...etc...
Thnx, all

Big Dog · 11-29-2004, 06:17 AM

Welcome to G&G!
I've had my CETME for a couple years now, and I love it! One of the best deals going in a full power semiauto rifle.
I normally shoot milsurp 7.62X51, but I have shot the Remington/UMC 150 grain Core-loct hunting ammo in it. Accuracy was good - using a 6X scope I get 2 MOA (2 inch groups) consistently at 100 yards - well within "Minute-of-Deer". It is more accurate with military ammo that it likes, but it handles commercial ammo well. I've heard good things from other CETME owners using Winchester premium hunting ammo, but I haven't tried the "high dollar" ammo yet.
Most guys like the Clamp-on scope mounts or the one sold by B-square.
I'm cheap though. I used a Weaver rail from Wal-Mart, and some JB Weld (lots of JB Weld . . . ) - it has held up through several hundred rounds now.
Sanded and dressed down and painted black to match the rest of the gun, it looks good to! It sits low enough that I can use my iron sights without removing the scope.
Normally I use the 6X scope with the German Reticle (pointed lower post and non-connected side posts), but I currently have a Simmons 4.5-14X40AO ATV scope on it, for accuracy testing.
I have shot several one-inch groups using the Venezuelan CAVIM .308 ammo. I'm pleased - these rifles can be pretty good shooters indeed.
Some guys have had problems with their CETMEs - I must have caught the CIA assembler monkey on a good day. Hehehe.

Here's a good website to check out for this rifle:
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/

They have a good CETME/FR8 forum, with a lot of very knowledgable people.
I read that the CETME/HK action can handle 60,000 pressures, but don't really know for sure. The nice thing about these rifles is that the lack of a gas system makes them more forgiving of different ammo than gas-operated guns. No pesky gas valves to have to adjust for different loads!

Mandy · 12-14-2004, 05:00 PM

:assult: :assult: :assult: :assult: :assult:
CETMEs and G3 are more or less the same, as BD said, this gun is very reliable once tuned properly, many CETMEs come with gremlins inside, same can be said about the CAI G3s, but the first owner should get rid of them with little work.

If yours is used, then the gremlims should have been removed by now, every CETME owner that I know, is as happy as a dog with 2 tails with his rifle.

I got a G3 and I got rid of my gremlims, most of them were due to a dirty chamber and metal shavings inside the receiver, the monkey at CAI forgot to blow the whole thing before assembly.

The B-Square Mount is rock solid, can acomodate a 40mm obj and allow the use of the Iron sights due to the seethru design, I got mine in Cheaper than dirt.

Enjoy your Chopo, it won't kick like a mule, but pack the power of a real rifle!!!

:uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi:

Uncle Jaque · 12-16-2004, 09:44 AM

Century has a "sale" on SS Recievered CETME's for the rest of Dec., but my rep sez that there are no more kits coming in for them to make more out of - so as much as i was going to wait till after Christmas, I'm off to my local Gun-Shop to order one.

My C&R, needless to say, won't cut it for a CETME!

Also the internet buzz is that the CAI monkeys are getting semi-educated, as the CETME's coming out of their cage are not QUITE as bad as they used to be.
Pity; they just figure out how to do it, and the parts run out.

Whether or when any more parts kits will become available, who knows - but ads for CETMEs seem to be drying up all over.

Uncle Jaque In Maine

Big Dog · 12-16-2004, 10:01 AM

UJ, that tallies with what I've read elsewhere, and the fact that the CETME prices are really climbing at gunshows.
Glad I got mine when I did!

Uncle Jaque · 12-20-2004, 06:05 PM

Well, my Class 1 FFL Dealer's FFL copy went out thursday and my check followed it Friday, so by Christmas I reckon a CETME will be headed this way.
I probably won't see it 'till New Years or later, but that's OK, as the weather up here in Maine isn't all that conducive to shooting just yet.

From what I read here and similar CETME boards, even if i get lucky and get a "good one" (which seems to be a bit of a crap - shoot with Century) it will need some cleaning, tweaking, working in and general TLC before it's really rangeworthy.

My Century Rep tells me that they still have about 100 of the "Sale" special stainless CETMEs in stock, so I ought to get my order in on time to score one it seems.

Now I guess I'd better order up some fodder for this beast; it seems that the Australian is about the best milsurp to feed it - has anyone tried the Israeli surplus that KY Imports is selling? Who' s got the best price on Aussie these days?

Big Dog · 12-22-2004, 02:58 PM

You might want to give the Venezuelan "CAVIM" 7.62 a try. I'm getting one inch groups at 100 yards with it. Shooting with a good scope of course - my tired eyes require some augmentation these days.

Just stay away from the Indian stuff (real cheap, usually sold in clear plastic packs) - very dirty and poor QC. Some squibs have been reported!

Yep, cleaning is a must! No telling what crud the Monkeys left in it. I caught my assembler monkey on a good day, but he was still a slob.

I have been reading of some owners finding parts of chamber flags still in the bores! Make sure there's no obstructions before shooting.

Uncle Jaque · 12-22-2004, 04:47 PM

Oh yes; it is SOP in this shop to give any newly acquired weapon a good and thorough pulling down and going over!

I've been downloading, printing, and studying everything I can find on the CETME, and have set up a 3-ring binder full of data, instructions, documentation etc... and my CETME hasn't even left the warehouse yet!
By the time it gets here I ought to at least have a clue as to how it works.

Where do you get that Vennie fodder? I have not seen any advertized anywhere so far, but I'll start looking.

I just mailed out orders for 200 rounds of Aussie from AIM and 100 rounds of Israeli IDF milsurp and a box of 20 "Santa Barbara" to try for comparison from KY Imports.
From what I gather those are pretty standard and acceptable feed for a CETME.
Thanks for the tip on the Vennie though; if I see any at a decent price I might go for a can or two of that as well. I have a feeling that this "Choppo" and I will be doing some serious range time together when things warm up a bit.

I had hoped that my 7MM Vennie FN-49 would be my primary SHTF rifle... but I can't get it to group inside of 2 feet at 100 yards. I'm sure hoping that this CETME will do better than that.

Besides; as much as i like the 7MM, .308 is a lot more commonly availiable these days.

Uncle Jaque · 12-22-2004, 04:52 PM

BTW - with my old bifocalled eyeballs, will probably put one of the scopes gathering dust in one of my cubbyholes down in the shop to work on this CETME.

That B-Square mount with the knurled wheel on the side looks like as good a rig as any, and I may drop the $50 for one if this rifle shoots as well as I hope it does.

Has anyone tried mounting a "Scout" pistol LER scope out forward of the reciever yet?

Is it do-able even? (I may have to try even if it ain't!)

12-22-2004, 05:36 PM

TAPCO has a nice mount with two weaver rails for $50. The top rail is also STANAG. I topped mine with their STANAG T28 4x28 illuminated reticle, whole deal, $120, still have a side rail left for my lithium light (works good, lights up the sights nicely) or a laser eventually.

FloridaShark · 12-23-2004, 12:58 AM

That was just the combo I had in mind> Tapco has some good stuff.

FloridaShark · 12-23-2004, 01:01 AM

THANK YOU ALL!!!!

I will clean the hell out of it and gather as much inf as I can as well.
You guys are the best

Skarky

Mandy · 12-23-2004, 03:11 PM

:assult: :assult: :assult: :assult: :assult:

Does the Tapco mount is a seethru design?

If so , it's a good deal. What I like about the B-Square mounts, is that they are seethru and I can use the iron sights without removing the scope, also the B-Square holds zero when reinstaling the mount.

:uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi:

FloridaShark · 12-24-2004, 05:51 PM

I am holding in my currentyl CLP stained fingers (bottle shake sound)
the Tapco catalog and on page 14 it states in the holy catalog of cool things that it is a see through mount

Amen

12-25-2004, 12:10 PM

SWAT mount is a see-thru. I have a B square on my Mini-14, I like it too. The TAPCO mount is similar design, but you tighten it with a hex (allen) wrench instead of having a knob made on the side.

Uncle Jaque · 12-26-2004, 08:11 PM

In running a search it seems that the B-Sqare mounts for the G-3 / CETME run around $85 or so; what is the best price for these and where does one go for said deal?

I like the idea of the large knurled wheel for mounting; Hex-heads are a royal pain in the breechblock!

UJ in ME

Uncle Jaque · 12-26-2004, 10:06 PM

I was just perusing diecschem's web site, and now I'm not so hot for the B-Square mounts; it seems that his bent and distorted in tightening it down, and still "set back" under recoil, messing up the top of his reciever and rear sight. Making these things out of aluminum might work for .22s, but it does not make a lot of sense to me for use on a real rifle.

So what's out there within the $50 price range that's made out of STEEL and WORKS?

How about those Repro "STANAG Claw" mounts?

http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd....U=886300&MC=YJ

Are they any good?
Will they work on a stainless cast reciever?
Do they accept standard Weaver rings?

Mandy · 12-27-2004, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Gunslinger

SWAT mount is a see-thru. I have a B square on my Mini-14, I like it too. The TAPCO mount is similar design, but you tighten it with a hex (allen) wrench instead of having a knob made on the side.

:assult: :assult: :assult: :assult: :assult:

Cool !!!!

:uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi:

Mandy · 12-27-2004, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Jaque

I was just perusing diecschem's web site, and now I'm not so hot for the B-Square mounts; it seems that his bent and distorted in tightening it down, and still "set back" under recoil, messing up the top of his reciever and rear sight. Making these things out of aluminum might work for .22s, but it does not make a lot of sense to me for use on a real rifle.

So what's out there within the $50 price range that's made out of STEEL and WORKS?

How about those Repro "STANAG Claw" mounts?

http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd....U=886300&MC=YJ

Are they any good?
Will they work on a stainless cast reciever?
Do they accept standard Weaver rings?

:assult: :assult: :assult: :assult: :assult:

So far I haven't had a problem with my B-Square, so maybe diecschem's was installed improperly.

The stanag claw looks good, just be sure the rings are included, my B-Square came with the rings.

:uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi:

Uncle Jaque · 12-27-2004, 02:58 PM

Thanks for your comments, Mandy - if you have not been to Dieschem's site lately, check it out!

http://dieschem.tripod.com/

When it comes to CETMEs, this chap really seems to know what he's about!

I have had "issues" with aluminum around HP rifles myself, so tend not to trust it a whole lot as a rule. Especially in a component that has to stand up to the tremendous G-forces and repeated shock of holding a scope rock solid on a recoiling reciever, without coming loose or losing it's precise "Zero".

They want $95 for the STANAG, and I have yet to hear from anyone who actually uses one; I like the low-mount Weaver bar - if anything can be made of alumunum and stand up that might I suppose - but they want around $60 for that, too.

If worse comes to worse I can and will MAKE a scope mount for the foolish thing!
It might not look all that horny, and might look more at home on a pickup truck than a battle rifle - but the bloody thing won't shake off either, I'll reckon!
I inherited a cigar box full of rings and such from my late "Pappy", so I'm sure I can come up with something to use there.

Got a couple of decent scopes on hand, too.

11-28-2004, 10:36 PM	#1
AKagain Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1	New to Cetme's In what some would call a fit of idiocy I traded my SAR-2 (I was running low on 5.45 ammo anyway) on a used Cetme... the guy assured me it was a fine gun... took it to the range today and it shoots well with 150gr. fullpatch ammo. Do any of you know how well it'll possibly shoot/function with lead point ammo, say, ummm, for hunting? as an aside on that, what sort of chamber pressure can the delayed blowback action handle? Also- what makes the most sense when it comes to installing a scope? How is the accuracy of any of your cetmes? etc, etc, newbie questions...etc... Thnx, all

11-29-2004, 06:17 AM	#2
Big Dog Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 10,213	Welcome to G&G! I've had my CETME for a couple years now, and I love it! One of the best deals going in a full power semiauto rifle. I normally shoot milsurp 7.62X51, but I have shot the Remington/UMC 150 grain Core-loct hunting ammo in it. Accuracy was good - using a 6X scope I get 2 MOA (2 inch groups) consistently at 100 yards - well within "Minute-of-Deer". It is more accurate with military ammo that it likes, but it handles commercial ammo well. I've heard good things from other CETME owners using Winchester premium hunting ammo, but I haven't tried the "high dollar" ammo yet. Most guys like the Clamp-on scope mounts or the one sold by B-square. I'm cheap though. I used a Weaver rail from Wal-Mart, and some JB Weld (lots of JB Weld . . . ) - it has held up through several hundred rounds now. Sanded and dressed down and painted black to match the rest of the gun, it looks good to! It sits low enough that I can use my iron sights without removing the scope. Normally I use the 6X scope with the German Reticle (pointed lower post and non-connected side posts), but I currently have a Simmons 4.5-14X40AO ATV scope on it, for accuracy testing. I have shot several one-inch groups using the Venezuelan CAVIM .308 ammo. I'm pleased - these rifles can be pretty good shooters indeed. Some guys have had problems with their CETMEs - I must have caught the CIA assembler monkey on a good day. Hehehe. Here's a good website to check out for this rifle: http://www.gunboards.com/forums/ They have a good CETME/FR8 forum, with a lot of very knowledgable people. I read that the CETME/HK action can handle 60,000 pressures, but don't really know for sure. The nice thing about these rifles is that the lack of a gas system makes them more forgiving of different ammo than gas-operated guns. No pesky gas valves to have to adjust for different loads! __________________ Moderator of: AR15/M16, M14/M1A, New/Beginning Shooters and Militaria/Collectables.

12-14-2004, 05:00 PM	#3
Mandy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico Posts: 1,641	:assult: :assult: :assult: :assult: :assult: CETMEs and G3 are more or less the same, as BD said, this gun is very reliable once tuned properly, many CETMEs come with gremlins inside, same can be said about the CAI G3s, but the first owner should get rid of them with little work. If yours is used, then the gremlims should have been removed by now, every CETME owner that I know, is as happy as a dog with 2 tails with his rifle. I got a G3 and I got rid of my gremlims, most of them were due to a dirty chamber and metal shavings inside the receiver, the monkey at CAI forgot to blow the whole thing before assembly. The B-Square Mount is rock solid, can acomodate a 40mm obj and allow the use of the Iron sights due to the seethru design, I got mine in Cheaper than dirt. Enjoy your Chopo, it won't kick like a mule, but pack the power of a real rifle!!! :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: __________________ :assult: :assult: :assult: :assult: :assult: Better be judged by 12 than carried by 6. _________________________________ If you gonna die, die with your boots on ! Iron Maiden _________________________________ The deeper you go, the better it feels ! Divers Motto :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi:

12-16-2004, 09:44 AM	#4
Uncle Jaque Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yarmouth, Maine Posts: 18	Century has a "sale" on SS Recievered CETME's for the rest of Dec., but my rep sez that there are no more kits coming in for them to make more out of - so as much as i was going to wait till after Christmas, I'm off to my local Gun-Shop to order one. My C&R, needless to say, won't cut it for a CETME! Also the internet buzz is that the CAI monkeys are getting semi-educated, as the CETME's coming out of their cage are not QUITE as bad as they used to be. Pity; they just figure out how to do it, and the parts run out. Whether or when any more parts kits will become available, who knows - but ads for CETMEs seem to be drying up all over. Uncle Jaque In Maine __________________ For God and Country; "Uncle Jaque"

12-16-2004, 10:01 AM	#5
Big Dog Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 10,213	UJ, that tallies with what I've read elsewhere, and the fact that the CETME prices are really climbing at gunshows. Glad I got mine when I did! __________________ Moderator of: AR15/M16, M14/M1A, New/Beginning Shooters and Militaria/Collectables.

12-20-2004, 06:05 PM	#6
Uncle Jaque Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yarmouth, Maine Posts: 18	Buying myself a CETME for Christmas... Well, my Class 1 FFL Dealer's FFL copy went out thursday and my check followed it Friday, so by Christmas I reckon a CETME will be headed this way. I probably won't see it 'till New Years or later, but that's OK, as the weather up here in Maine isn't all that conducive to shooting just yet. From what I read here and similar CETME boards, even if i get lucky and get a "good one" (which seems to be a bit of a crap - shoot with Century) it will need some cleaning, tweaking, working in and general TLC before it's really rangeworthy. My Century Rep tells me that they still have about 100 of the "Sale" special stainless CETMEs in stock, so I ought to get my order in on time to score one it seems. Now I guess I'd better order up some fodder for this beast; it seems that the Australian is about the best milsurp to feed it - has anyone tried the Israeli surplus that KY Imports is selling? Who' s got the best price on Aussie these days? __________________ For God and Country; "Uncle Jaque"

12-22-2004, 02:58 PM	#7
Big Dog Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 10,213	You might want to give the Venezuelan "CAVIM" 7.62 a try. I'm getting one inch groups at 100 yards with it. Shooting with a good scope of course - my tired eyes require some augmentation these days. Just stay away from the Indian stuff (real cheap, usually sold in clear plastic packs) - very dirty and poor QC. Some squibs have been reported! Yep, cleaning is a must! No telling what crud the Monkeys left in it. I caught my assembler monkey on a good day, but he was still a slob. I have been reading of some owners finding parts of chamber flags still in the bores! Make sure there's no obstructions before shooting. __________________ Moderator of: AR15/M16, M14/M1A, New/Beginning Shooters and Militaria/Collectables.

12-22-2004, 04:47 PM	#8
Uncle Jaque Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yarmouth, Maine Posts: 18	Oh yes; it is SOP in this shop to give any newly acquired weapon a good and thorough pulling down and going over! I've been downloading, printing, and studying everything I can find on the CETME, and have set up a 3-ring binder full of data, instructions, documentation etc... and my CETME hasn't even left the warehouse yet! By the time it gets here I ought to at least have a clue as to how it works. Where do you get that Vennie fodder? I have not seen any advertized anywhere so far, but I'll start looking. I just mailed out orders for 200 rounds of Aussie from AIM and 100 rounds of Israeli IDF milsurp and a box of 20 "Santa Barbara" to try for comparison from KY Imports. From what I gather those are pretty standard and acceptable feed for a CETME. Thanks for the tip on the Vennie though; if I see any at a decent price I might go for a can or two of that as well. I have a feeling that this "Choppo" and I will be doing some serious range time together when things warm up a bit. I had hoped that my 7MM Vennie FN-49 would be my primary SHTF rifle... but I can't get it to group inside of 2 feet at 100 yards. I'm sure hoping that this CETME will do better than that. Besides; as much as i like the 7MM, .308 is a lot more commonly availiable these days. __________________ For God and Country; "Uncle Jaque"

12-22-2004, 04:52 PM	#9
Uncle Jaque Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yarmouth, Maine Posts: 18	BTW - with my old bifocalled eyeballs, will probably put one of the scopes gathering dust in one of my cubbyholes down in the shop to work on this CETME. That B-Square mount with the knurled wheel on the side looks like as good a rig as any, and I may drop the $50 for one if this rifle shoots as well as I hope it does. Has anyone tried mounting a "Scout" pistol LER scope out forward of the reciever yet? Is it do-able even? (I may have to try even if it ain't!) __________________ For God and Country; "Uncle Jaque"

12-22-2004, 05:36 PM	#10
Last Gunslinger Guest Posts: n/a	TAPCO has a nice mount with two weaver rails for $50. The top rail is also STANAG. I topped mine with their STANAG T28 4x28 illuminated reticle, whole deal, $120, still have a side rail left for my lithium light (works good, lights up the sights nicely) or a laser eventually.

12-23-2004, 12:58 AM	#11
FloridaShark Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: the gunshine state Posts: 43	That was just the combo I had in mind> Tapco has some good stuff.

12-23-2004, 01:01 AM	#12
FloridaShark Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: the gunshine state Posts: 43	THANK YOU ALL!!!! I will clean the hell out of it and gather as much inf as I can as well. You guys are the best Skarky

12-23-2004, 03:11 PM	#13
Mandy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico Posts: 1,641	:assult: :assult: :assult: :assult: :assult: Does the Tapco mount is a seethru design? If so , it's a good deal. What I like about the B-Square mounts, is that they are seethru and I can use the iron sights without removing the scope, also the B-Square holds zero when reinstaling the mount. :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: __________________ :assult: :assult: :assult: :assult: :assult: Better be judged by 12 than carried by 6. _________________________________ If you gonna die, die with your boots on ! Iron Maiden _________________________________ The deeper you go, the better it feels ! Divers Motto :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: Last edited by Mandy; 12-23-2004 at 03:19 PM.

12-24-2004, 05:51 PM	#14
FloridaShark Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: the gunshine state Posts: 43	I am holding in my currentyl CLP stained fingers (bottle shake sound) the Tapco catalog and on page 14 it states in the holy catalog of cool things that it is a see through mount Amen

12-25-2004, 12:10 PM	#15
Last Gunslinger Guest Posts: n/a	SWAT mount is a see-thru. I have a B square on my Mini-14, I like it too. The TAPCO mount is similar design, but you tighten it with a hex (allen) wrench instead of having a knob made on the side.

12-26-2004, 08:11 PM	#16
Uncle Jaque Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yarmouth, Maine Posts: 18	Best Price on B-Square Mounts? In running a search it seems that the B-Sqare mounts for the G-3 / CETME run around $85 or so; what is the best price for these and where does one go for said deal? I like the idea of the large knurled wheel for mounting; Hex-heads are a royal pain in the breechblock! UJ in ME __________________ For God and Country; "Uncle Jaque"

12-26-2004, 10:06 PM	#17
Uncle Jaque Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yarmouth, Maine Posts: 18	Scope Mounts and the CETME I was just perusing diecschem's web site, and now I'm not so hot for the B-Square mounts; it seems that his bent and distorted in tightening it down, and still "set back" under recoil, messing up the top of his reciever and rear sight. Making these things out of aluminum might work for .22s, but it does not make a lot of sense to me for use on a real rifle. So what's out there within the $50 price range that's made out of STEEL and WORKS? How about those Repro "STANAG Claw" mounts? http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd....U=886300&MC=YJ Are they any good? Will they work on a stainless cast reciever? Do they accept standard Weaver rings? __________________ For God and Country; "Uncle Jaque"

12-27-2004, 02:58 PM	#20
Uncle Jaque Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yarmouth, Maine Posts: 18	Thanks for your comments, Mandy - if you have not been to Dieschem's site lately, check it out! http://dieschem.tripod.com/ When it comes to CETMEs, this chap really seems to know what he's about! I have had "issues" with aluminum around HP rifles myself, so tend not to trust it a whole lot as a rule. Especially in a component that has to stand up to the tremendous G-forces and repeated shock of holding a scope rock solid on a recoiling reciever, without coming loose or losing it's precise "Zero". They want $95 for the STANAG, and I have yet to hear from anyone who actually uses one; I like the low-mount Weaver bar - if anything can be made of alumunum and stand up that might I suppose - but they want around $60 for that, too. If worse comes to worse I can and will MAKE a scope mount for the foolish thing! It might not look all that horny, and might look more at home on a pickup truck than a battle rifle - but the bloody thing won't shake off either, I'll reckon! I inherited a cigar box full of rings and such from my late "Pappy", so I'm sure I can come up with something to use there. Got a couple of decent scopes on hand, too. __________________ For God and Country; "Uncle Jaque"