01-19-2005, 08:06 PM
| #1 |
| Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1
| M14/M1A advice.... Hi.. This is my first posting....I did not see a Reception/In Processing area, so I will just get on to the point.. I am interested in the M14/M1A rifle...... Mostly for the nostalgia, since that was the rifle my father served with as well as his generation... ALso, I am curious about the rifle and want to learn it inside and out and get a feel for it for myself... I served in the M16-A2 era and did not have any practical experience with the M1 family of rifles.. I want the feel and smell of the wood stock like this rifle was originally intented... My purpose is to have a rifle to have FUN with.... I would like to use the NM iron sights for target practice and competition as well as be able to scope it.... Possibly bring it deer hunting..I know it's 10lbs ,but not a big deal for me..plus I would use the flush mount 5 round mag.... From looking around my choice seems to be the Fulton Armory competition M14 with rear-lugged reciever...ARMS scope mount....with a NightForce 3.5-15x50 NXS.... I ordered the M14 book by Scott Duff..so when it arrives I will study it... Any suggestions would be welcome.... Best Regards Chris Last edited by merrec; 01-19-2005 at 08:12 PM. |
|  |
|
01-20-2005, 11:02 AM
| #2 |
| Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somerset, kentucky
Posts: 12
|  your dad used the M-14, make him your first source of info...and be patient with the old fart. Fulton makes a fine product. and sounds like ya got the bucks too. hey get one for dad too, you'll get it back one day. and you both can have a good time!!! |
|
| |
|
02-03-2005, 10:42 AM
| #3 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA
Posts: 886
| From my experience, the M1A/M14 is a better and more consistent shooter with the iron sights, and when in the full size configuration. The Scout and Bush versions have problems with accuracy that are not present with the full sized M1A/M14. I work at a range (for many years) where all kinds of rifles from .17 Mach 2 to .50 BMG's are shot on a daily basis, and there are many M1A/M14's brought out to shoot every week. I have yet to see a really satisfied M1A/M14 owner with a scope mounted on the M1A/M14; they may say that they are happy with it, but if you watch their target (it won't be a good group), and their personal body language when they are firing, you will not see happiness. Also I have yet to see one of the Scout or Bush M1A's shoot better than an 8 inch group, consistently, at 100 yards (that is sad, because I would like to see them perform well). If you have vision problems, and actually need a scope, then plan to not be as consistently accurate as the iron sights can be. My suggestion is (if you buy a Springfield Armory M1A), to get the Loaded M1A (sugg. retail, about $1,500.00), and get all of the tools, magazines, Slings, etc., that they allow at the discounted prices. If you can afford it, the M1A Super Match is the best of their M1A's. If you buy from Fulton Armory, plan for a long wait, and talk with the people there, the wait is generally worth it. If you get the Loaded Springfield Armory M1A, plan to buy a USGI Trigger Group (and all of its components), a USGI Bolt (and all of its components), and a USGI Lock Bar Rear Sight (in National Match configuration), because you will need them eventually, if not right away. The reasons are: Non USGI Trigger Groups tend to fall out of the M1A on firing (if it doesn't then you may have a good one), and the magazines tend to fall out, too, with the Trigger group, or by itself. The non-USGI Bolts and non-USGI components tend to fly out of the M1A on firing (at least 5 out of 10 of them). The non-USGI Rear Sight tends to not hold its settings (adding the Lock Bar Rear Sight, you can easily snug the sight, with your fingers, so it can hold its settings, or loosen it so it can be easily adjusted if and when needed. These should not be a problem with the M14 from Fulton Armory, there is only the long wait to deal with. When you get the Springfield Armory (Commercial) Geneseo, Illinois M1A/M14, it will need to be lubricated. I am fairly sure the Fulton does this well, but you will need to learn what and where it needs lubrication eventually, too. The USGI Manual is fairly good, but not absolute. Springfield Armory (Commercial), Geneseo, Illinois [not to be confused with the Springfield Armory (Government), Springfield, Massachussetts] does not recommend dissassembly of the M1A, and it voids your warranty if you do dissassemble it (I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS!). If you want the M1A to shoot, then you will need to take it apart and lube it, some of them will not cycle as they come from the factory, because they are bone dry, except for the bolt (they do a fairly good job of lubing the bolt). More later. LATER: The Operating Rod needs lube where it goes through the Operating Rod Guide (attached to the barrel), and where it can and usually does contact the barrel just in front of the bottom of the receiver (with the M1A upright)). The Operating Rod Spring needs a lot of lube (the spring goes inside the Operating Rod, and if it isn't lubed it has too much friction and won't move freely). The Operating Rod Spring Guide needs lube (if it isn't lubed, it doesn't move and since the end of it is what the magazine hooks on (at the front of the magazine) it can cause the magazine to fall out of the M1A). As time goes by, there will be wear marks, usually shiny, and that is what needs lube; it is shiny because it didn't really have enough lube. Grease should be used, as it will stay on the parts. The best grease is what was used on the M1 Garand and the M14, and is normally available at Gun Shows, or from SARCO (it may be available from other sources, too). ` Last edited by Gyrene; 02-03-2005 at 01:29 PM. |
|
| |
|
02-22-2005, 03:14 PM
| #4 |
| Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2
| "Also I have yet to see one of the Scout or Bush M1A's shoot better than an 8 inch group, consistently, at 100 yards (that is sad, because I would like to see them perform well)." I have an older M1A bush rifle, it consistently shot 4.5" or better at 100yds with Portugese/South African/Austrailian surplus ammo when I first bought it (used). I put it in a Sage stock and now it shoots 3.5" at worst, it commonly shoots 1.75 to 2.5 MOA all the way out to 400yds, and I can get 5rd groups as good as 1.5" at times. This is about all I expect given the shorter sight radius, course sights, and surplus ammo, so I am "happy" with it. It is noticeably less accurate than my other full length M1A's, but I am skeptical to believe that all bush M1A's shoot no better than 8 MOA. This is the only one I have ever had, maybe I got lucky. |
|
| |
|
02-22-2005, 08:41 PM
| #5 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA
Posts: 886
| gaustin70 - I am happy that you have an M1A Bush Rifle that shoots at worst 3 1/2" groups, and generally better than that. I do see that you refer to it as ". . . an older M1A bush rifle . . .", and that may explain its better accuracy. Most of the "Older" M1A's seem to have better quality than the newer ones, (which is a bad trend, for Springfield Armory (Commercial), Geneseo, Illinois). One of the other problems with the short barreled rifles, in general, is that they burn far too much powder out in front of the flash suppressor/muzzle brake. It completely defeats the purpose of the flash suppressor, causing loss of night vision, in addition to not being able to use the full power of the .308 (7.62 x 51mm); (if it is not in the barrel being pushed by all of the burning powder, it certainly can't reach the designed speed, and muzzle energy levels); it is also a terrible danger for your (and anybody around you) ears without excellent ear protection (when your hearing is gone, it won't come back even with medical help). Fred of Fred's M14 Stocks writes about these issues, and did address part of them in the February 20, 2005 issue of the Shotgun News. "You might just ask - 'If the short barrel is so great, why the longer one in the first place?' " [To quote Fred.] I further state if the short barrel was better then why does it not appear in the inventory of the US Army, US Navy, and/or US Marine Corps. I am sure that they are appropriating the best for the Special Ops guys, as they generally get what they want, and what works the best for them. When the Springfield Armory (Government), Springfield, Massachussetts, made attempts to provide a short M1 Garand in WWII for the house to house fighting in Europe, it was found to be more of a liability than an asset, being too loud, and no better in the house to house fighting than the full size M1 Garand, besides they had reliability problems that the full size M1 Garand never had. Except for a few Museum pieces, they were all scrapped, and scavanged for useful parts. Springfield Armory (Commercial), Geneseo, Illinois reintroduced them as M1 Garand Tanker models, and they brought back the same problems as the original ones had. They were never used as a special "Tank" model, and I doubt that very many had ever been put inside a tank. ` |
|
| |
|
02-23-2005, 09:08 AM
| #6 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Classified
Posts: 934
| After all the talk I've seen about the questionable quality out of newer M1A's, I'm kinda happy (happier!?) with the one I found a few months ago. I'm an FAL nut but still longed for at least one M1A for the vault - just because. I've always really liked the lines of the M1A and have always gotten up from the bench with a smile when I had opportunity to fire one but I just couldn't bring myself to drop the coin for a new one. There are only a couple of my FALs that have come close to or over a grand and they all are veritable tack drivers -comparitivly speaking considering their military heritage. ANYWAY, I happened to find out about a private collection that was being liquidated and went to look. There were a load of Garands and M1 carbines, but only a couple of M1A's. I looked over the M1A's very close noting the serial numbers, one of which began with a zero! I ran the history on that particular rifle and found out that it did military service as a training rifle. In fact the history showed it going into the armory and being re-fitted with the nam era fiberglass stock that it was currently fitted with. I figured then that it should be a good one because as it was it appeared to be a fresh arsenal rebuild. The best part was that when I went back to haggle I ended up taking this one home for under a grand! Just because I like the lumber I have since found an M1A walnut stock (without the selector cut) and dropped the action into the wood. The great thing about that is that it can be back in the plastic stock in under a minute. As far as performance it holds a fair group at 100 and on out to 500. I do have a couple of FALS that shoot tighter - but what the hey, the Springfield is most definantly a classic and for sure was worth the pittance that I had to shell out. Of course I can always fit a Krieger barrel and tighten up the grouping, but as it is I'm just too cheap to double the amount of my investment at this point. SO, point to merrec - shop around before you drop major coin on a new one, you never know what you may trip over. Of course, sometimes when you trip you fall into a pile - in this same collection was another M1A chambered in .243 that I really wanted to throw into my take home pile, but for some reason he was really proud of that one price wise so I left it. Oh well!
__________________ The Second Amendment, it ain't about DUCK HUNTING! I feel more like I do now that I did when I first got here! |
|
| |
|
03-13-2005, 01:05 PM
| #7 |
| Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2
| Short Barrel M1A - Looks Cool, but that's it I agree with Gyrene and Fred, the short barrel M1A is in no way better, and is in no way equal to the performance of the original length rifle. For an M1A set up for CQB, the shortfalls are not enough to matter, but you can do CQB action with a regular length M1A just as well, so why not have a rifle that is not limited in accuracy at longer ranges? I bought a old pre-ban bush rifle because I thought it looked cool and would be cool to put into a double pistol grip stock and use for 3-gun matches where the longest you usually shoot is about 80 yard (at the least the matches in my neck of the woods). After getting a Bush length M1A and trying it out, I am thinking about selling it and dropping one of my normal length rifles into the Sage stock. I can still shorten the stock to get the rifle in close for tight spaces, the additional 4" of barrel will not keep me out of anywhere I need to go and I will wind up with a rifle I can hit well with past 400yds. My conclusion is that with an M1A, FAL, HK-91, or other 7.62x51 battle rifle, short barrels are a worthless modification which actually detract from the overall performance of the rifle. You lose accuracy and velocity, which limit the rifle's range and you increase the muzzle signature which better give up your position and also kills your night vision. I have an FAL in 50.63 configuration with a 16.5" short barrel also, it is less accurate and has tons more flash than my other FALs, I am thinking of getting rid of it also. You don't see a thing in bright daylight, but go shoot that short barrelled rifle in the late evening and into dark and see the difference. So if you want a rifle you can make into a short package, go ahead and get the folding and collapsable stocks, tactical rails, etc., but I suggest building it all on a full length barrelled rifle. |
|
| |
|
03-13-2005, 03:02 PM
| #8 |
| Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somerset, kentucky
Posts: 12
| i wonder if he ever got it??? |
|
| |
|
04-16-2005, 04:30 AM
| #9 |
| Registered User  Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 12
| Springfield armoury is the way to go and go ahead and get the National Match and get that over with and you should be happy, but be warned SA no longer offers Chrome lined barrels. All their barrels are just standard 4140 arsenal grade steel unless you order Stainless. |
|
| |
|
06-02-2005, 12:59 PM
| #10 | |
| Senior Member  Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 395
| Quote:
I suggest you visit Different's M1A site and then visit my web site being sure to visit all of the M1A - M14 FORUMS I link to. Do this and you will have a better understanding of what to look for and what to look-out for. Good luck. | |
|
| |
|
06-02-2005, 01:19 PM
| #11 |
| Senior Member  | The M-14 is a fine rifle, I shot DCM league (now CMP) with the M1 Garand and was issued a state owned M-14 for competition, DO NOT ATTEMPT to disassemble the bolt without the combination tool, use only the combination tool for removing the gas plug! The M-14 (M1A) can be loaded from the top with stripper clips, making for a very fast reload when shooting in a match where you have to shoot 5 rounds and reload to shoot another 5 rounds in 70 seconds. Try to stay with the GI model and parts. My M1A was a Springfield Armory (Early 80's) National Match grade, Fine weapon, with all the accessories, nothing else comes close.
__________________ Life is too important to be taken seriously. |
|
| |
|
06-03-2005, 07:16 AM
| #12 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 395
| Quote:
When my Scout action was bedded in walnut I could shoot 2.5" groups @ 200 yards all day long. Like you, my action is now tension bedded in a SAGE chassis stock and 1.75" @ 300 yards is common with Port surplus. Any M14 type rifle that can't shoot a 4.5" group @ 300 yards needs to be checked for a major problem. Also, problems such as trigger groups and magazines falling out of the rifle while shooting are operator errors. | |
|
| |
|
06-04-2005, 02:01 AM
| #13 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA
Posts: 886
| Rex Cramer - I disagree about the problem of magazines and trigger groups falling out as being operator errors. In every case that has occurred at our range, the owner is extremely frustrated, having spent so much money on a rifle (they are not $1,500.00 anymore, the last suggested retail I saw was $1,799.00 plus shipping and tax and . . . ) that seems to self destruct with every shot, and I, along with my fellow rangemasters, save their day, by attempting to get their parts to work properly, first with lubrication, and if that doesn't do the job, then we substitute our own personal USGI parts to show them that the rifle will perform; IT ALWAYS DOES SOLVE THEIR PROBLEM! I have seen bolts fly apart on the first shot, throwing parts everywhere. One day I saw two M1A's in less than 10 minutes (during the same firing period) puke out their bolts. Putting USGI bolts in and checking the headspace solved their bolt problems, and then on to the lubrication problem, trigger group ejection, and magazines falling out. The cure every time has been to switch to USGI parts, and to disassemble and lube the M1A as it should be lubed. I have talked about this far too many times, in this and other forums, and it always comes down to switching to USGI parts and proper lubrication that solves these problems. Working at the county rifle and pistol range, I have dealt with, at the very least, 1 to 5 M1A's every month for the past 3 years, and I have never failed to solve their problems. First the lube route is tried, and if that doesn't solve the problem, then the Springfield Armory, Inc. parts get scrapped and USGI parts get installed, with proper lubrication, and no more problems. I have never seen a short barreled M1A, no matter what you call it (Bush rifle, Scout rifle, or SOCOM, it is still only a short barreled M1A), shoot better than a 4 1/2 inch group, at 100 yards, even with a telescope, and that is only one! This is reasonable combat accuracy, but it is not even close to the 1 inch or less groups that a properly fitted and lubed M1A bedded or unbedded can shoot. If you are thinking the shooter is the problem, I can agree with that some of the time, but I know that some of these M1A owners can shoot a 1 inch group at 100 yards with their full length M1A's (and 1 1/2 to 2 inch groups at 200 yards) using only the Iron Sights (USGI of course). At least one of them can regularly shoot 460/500 to 480/500 with his M1A Super Match on a standard NRA full length Course 200/300/600 yards/meters using the iron sights; yet he couldn't get better than a 5 1/4 inch group with his M1A Bush rifle, and that was inconsistent. I live with this stuff every day, and I do not like to see what I see, but I can't refute what is happening. So that you do not think I am just out to try to make Springfield Armory (Commercial) Geneseo, Illinois, look bad, I have a M1A Super Match on order at the present time. When I receive it I will check it out for all of the characteristics I have complained about in the past, and I will report back what I find. I will also shoot for accuracy at 100 and 200 yards, as soon as I can get the time to do so (hopefully it will come in and I will have it in time to shoot for the 4th of July)! Meanwhile I will continue to shoot my NORINCO M14 S/A, which will give me groups of 2 to 3 1/2 inches at 200 yards, and it is not bedded. It is interesting to me, that I had to switch most of the parts to USGI, including all of the parts I recommend to be switched on the Springfield Armory (Commercial) Geneseo, Illinois. I do find that the magazines, Chinese or USGI, work the same, and I have to look at them for the logo to tell which is Chinese and which is USGI. ` |
|
| |
|
06-04-2005, 07:33 AM
| #14 | |||||
| Senior Member Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 395
| Quote:
Recently the SEAL's opted for the optimal flash reduction available on the 18" barrel over the extra blast and reduced velocity of the 16" barrel with it's muzzle break. Do you think the SEAL's would find 4.5+" groups @ 100 yards acceptable? Quote:
The shooter is responsible for inspecting the rifle to make sure it is good-to-go before stepping up to the line. As for the guy that can't do better than 5.25" - he needs to send that Bush rifle back to SAI. That is unacceptable. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
SAI get's all the attention because they sell more M14 type rifles than all others combined. Tip: No matter what brand M14 type rifle you own you should follow Gyrene's cure listed above. Gyrene, I'm sure you know the Super Match is, or at least should be a better built rifle out of the box. I hope it lives up to the hype and is worth the extra cost. Good luck and I will look for your range report. Also, I wish there was a guy like you at every range :cheer: Last edited by Rex Kramer; 06-04-2005 at 08:16 AM. | |||||
|
| |
|
06-05-2005, 08:24 PM
| #15 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA
Posts: 886
| Rex Kramer - Thanks for the vote of confidence! Today another M1A with a serious problem. This was a Loaded M1A (at the time it was purchased (2 years ago) it cost the owner $1,693.95). It will make its 5th trip back to Springfield Armory Inc. (Commercial), Geneseo, Illinois. The problem was, it suddenly developed an extremely difficult trigger. Outside of the rifle, the trigger would not release the hammer with 20 lbs (measured with a calibrated trigger pull scale) pull (we were afraid something would break, so stopped at 20 lbs). In the rifle, the owner decided he would pull the trigger until the hammer was released, and it was obvious it took a lot of pressure to get the trigger to release. We then applied another trigger pull scale (just a big scale calibrated by hooking the scale up to the calibrated scale, and pulling to check the readings for comparison), and on the M1A the trigger released at 36 lbs. The trigger housing is a Springfield Armory (Gov't), Springfield, Massachussetts trigger housing, and the trigger appears to be a Gov't trigger. Everything else in the trigger housing is "after market" (the safety, the hammer spring, the hammer spring guide, the trigger pin, the trigger guard, etc). My suspicion is that the trigger pin has a problem, and there may be other things wrong. The hammer hooks on the sear worked and the trigger did not release the hammer hooks, preventing hammer function when the trigger housing was outside the M1A. I think it was the excessive pressure applied to the trigger that caused the trigger pin to flex and release the hammer when the trigger group was inside the M1A. The owner is resigned to the fact that every time he has brought it to the range to shoot, he takes it home in a non-firing condition. I prevailed upon him to be confident, that the problems will get resolved, and he will have a great M1A. It is very accurate, 1 inch groups at 100 yards with iron sights, when it will fire. What I have found, is the most of the M1A's that were built before about 3 years ago have very few problems, and I have only heard of two Super Match M1A's that had problems and they were built in the past 2 years. The one I am getting is not a newly built one, but one that was built almost 5 years ago. It sat in a dealers' storage for 2 years (nobody wanted to spend $2,695.00 to buy it), and it was sold, unfired (and still is unfired (except for factory testing) to another dealer, who put it aside, hoping to keep it as his own, but he needs the money, now). ` |
|
| |
|
06-05-2005, 09:38 PM
| #16 | |||
| Senior Member Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 395
| Quote:
Quote:
Everytime it came back with a new GI part. My rifle now has ALL USGI and GI aftermarkets parts except for the receiver, rear sight and stripper clip guide. Quote:
Here is a clickable thumbnail of my Scout.  It is currently at the Crazy Horse spa for M14's in Arizona  Last edited by Rex Kramer; 06-05-2005 at 09:55 PM. | |||
|
| |
