Army reservist being held for detaining illegals at gun point at AZ Border - Page 2

SPOCAHP ANAR · 04-13-2005, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rugged

Sad,

I don't see any assault. He was stopping a felony. Making a citizens arrest.

I know I am going to get razzed for this but he had no business stopping them. As it was stated he had no probable cause. This is no more different than a cop pulling a gun on you and siezing your guns and detaining you because he THINKS you might be doing something wrong. If this was the government doing this to a white guy with guns it would be called oppression; do it to mexicans and its OK?

So for the record: I do not like illegal immigration; I do not like the piss poor efforts our government has taken to reduce it; I do not like paying for their welfare that they do not deserve.

SPOCAHP ANAR · 04-13-2005, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GUNRUNNER

He threatened to kill them,'' Sheriff Joe Arpaio said. ``He did not have the right to do what he did. How did he know they were illegal aliens?''

But they were....

We agree on something? :jaw:

GUNRUNNER · 04-13-2005, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPOCAHP ANAR

We agree on something? :jaw:

Don't let it happen again!

jerry · 04-13-2005, 06:05 PM

[quote=Rugged]What happens when you court martial an Army reservist? do they have to become an Air force reservist?/QUOTE]

EASY........ :jet:

GUNRUNNER · 04-13-2005, 06:07 PM

[quote=jerry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rugged

What happens when you court martial an Army reservist? do they have to become an Air force reservist?/QUOTE]

EASY........ :jet:

Sic 'em Jerry...get Spooky on 'em....

Shaun · 04-13-2005, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rugged

can't be kidnapping. Doesn't have the elements for kidnapping or false imprisonment.
barely fits the elements for Apprehension of receiving a battery assault.

My guess is once a judge looks at it the charges will be dropped.

It was kidnapping the definition is below and they were held against their will therefore it is considered imprisonment.

Kidnapping - the unlawful act of capturing and carrying away a person against their will and holding them in false imprisonment

BadKarma · 04-13-2005, 08:50 PM

All movies and such fiction aside, vigilantism is generally a bad thing.

toolman · 04-14-2005, 12:55 AM

O.K., first post in five weeks and I'm prob'ly going to stick my foot in my mouth again! IMO, the key phrase/word in all of this is "ILLEGAL aliens". These ILLEGAL aliens were in our country ILLEGALLY, and as such, have NO rights. As far as I'm concerned, this is akin to a rapist filing charges because his victim didn't tell him she had VD. It's all pretty simple, stay where you belong or go through the proper channels to get here and you don't have to worry about it! My quess is that these people wouldn't be trying it again, but our bleeding heart libs will offer them full citizenship and a hefty cash settlement for the pain and emotional trauma incurred while trespassing in our country!

Troy · 04-14-2005, 01:23 AM

Toolman, does what your saying give law enforcement or military the right to just pick someone out of a crowd or whatever and treat them in the way mentioned in this thread? And to pick someone to go after with really no reason or any suspision at all. I think if the point of the thread is that the Army guy acted without just cause, well then he should pay for that. The fact that the guys he collared were illegals was a lucky break for him.

MAX7.62 · 04-14-2005, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

Toolman, does what your saying give law enforcement or military the right to just pick someone out of a crowd or whatever and treat them in the way mentioned in this thread? And to pick someone to go after with really no reason or any suspision at all.

Uhhh? Hey Troy, it happens everyday - it's called airport security. OK, so the federal burger flipper at the gate doesn't whup out a piece and say he's going to blow you away, but you are darn sure detained for no reason at all - other than the reasons some bureaucrats have theorized on paper.

I think the guy's a hero, the flow of illegals into the country has to be stopped, period. It's a sensative deal, "W" knows that the trade with Mehico and Canada-eh is important and will cost us big bucks to disturb it, but he also knows something has to be done.

dhermesc · 04-14-2005, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

Toolman, does what your saying give law enforcement or military the right to just pick someone out of a crowd or whatever and treat them in the way mentioned in this thread? And to pick someone to go after with really no reason or any suspision at all.

I don't suppose you read the thread about the guy who paid his account with $2.00 bills did you? They thought he might be doing something illegal, based on no facts or even a sound mind. Chained him to a pole and left him there. Anybody in that case going to jail?

Rufus Rhastus J · 04-14-2005, 07:49 AM

I noticed no one suggested the other obvious, and plausable posibility. Namely, he was ordered to do this silly act. Yes, ordered. As we all know, Bush loves these people...they are his next voting block! Even Fox news wonders why this administration has so little interest in secureing our southern border. Just a thought.

dhermesc · 04-14-2005, 08:27 AM

Several times during the news conference, Patrick said that his military training took over when he saw the men coming out of the bushes. He said he pulled over at the rest stop in Sentinel on Interstate 8 to relieve his dog. He said he was walking the dog when the men appeared.

Although Patrick said he had no preconceived notions about who the men were, he also said he thought they were going to attack him because they thought he was a Border Patrol agent.

He said his dog, a black Labrador, is similar to ones used by Border Patrol agents. He said he first saw one man walk out of the bushes toward a white Chevy Suburban with California license plates parked in the lot next to Patrick's car.

A few seconds later, six more men emerged. Although Patrick said at one point that he was "attacked," he later acknowledged that none of them had weapons and none tried to touch him. But he insisted that might not have been the case if his dog had not gotten between them and if he had not been armed.

Meanwhile, Haab's family is worried that he is being used as a political scapegoat and that authorities will convict him and send him to jail to send a message to fringe groups on the border.

"This couldn't have happened at a worse time," said Haab's father, Dave Haab, of New Paris, Ind. "They are trying to make an example out of Pat. They are trying to avoid a blood bath down there on the border. I think he has been charged unfairly and that he is being used as a political football."

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...4detain14.html

Gunnie Ed · 04-14-2005, 08:32 AM

i don't know, there's a difference between shooting and killing.

i mean, he didn't say he was going to kill them, nor did he expressly state how or where he would shoot them. he just said "lie on the ground or be shot."

naturally you don't argue with someone who says that, because nobody wants to be shot anyway. perhaps he knew that they were illegals. and by "knew" i mean "he knew, factually."

in all honesty, i feel this country is at the point where the only way to fix the problems, is to let them get worse.

you know, like a computer that's so full of viruses and spyware that the only way to fix it is to replace the hard drive.

ShooMac · 04-14-2005, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rugged

you know they deserved to be shot.

I disagree. They did not. Arrested and deported, yes. Shot, no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhermesc

his military training took over when he saw the men coming out of the bushes.

Unless that training was as an MP, that counts for squat in my book. I am sure that John Allen Muhammad's military training played a role in what he did as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rugged

What happens when you court martial an Army reservist? do they have to become an Air force reservist?

OK, that was funny!

gunssb · 04-14-2005, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunnie Ed

i mean, he didn't say he was going to kill them, nor did he expressly state how or where he would shoot them. he just said "lie on the ground or be shot."

naturally you don't argue with someone who says that, because nobody wants to be shot anyway. perhaps he knew that they were illegals. and by "knew" i mean "he knew, factually."

Even if he knew, it doesn't give him the right to point guns at them unless threatened - now he could go with the argument in court that these people were present in numbers although not armed and he believed they would have hurt him. He was not a border agent, a peace officer or a government agent - these folks are required to announce who they are and that is the only thing that gives them the right. Sorry, I do believe that in a non combat situation, only people trained in civilian issues should be allowed to point guns at people unless it is a question of stopping a dangerous crime or a violent act. If John Schmoe Rambo points a firearm at some guy when he is not doing the above, the other guy has the same rights and is entitled to shoot the Schmoe.

Troy · 04-14-2005, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAX7.62

Uhhh? Hey Troy, it happens everyday - it's called airport security. OK, so the federal burger flipper at the gate doesn't whup out a piece and say he's going to blow you away, but you are darn sure detained for no reason at all - other than the reasons some bureaucrats have theorized on paper.

I think the guy's a hero, the flow of illegals into the country has to be stopped, period. It's a sensative deal, "W" knows that the trade with Mehico and Canada-eh is important and will cost us big bucks to disturb it, but he also knows something has to be done.

good point, i was just saying the the guy overreacted.

Troy · 04-14-2005, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhermesc

I don't suppose you read the thread about the guy who paid his account with $2.00 bills did you? They thought he might be doing something illegal, based on no facts or even a sound mind. Chained him to a pole and left him there. Anybody in that case going to jail?

yeah i read the thread and replyied to it. your right, about what happened to him. the difference was the i dont think anywone threatened to kill the guy in the other thread. that is quite a difference when an unarmed guy robs someone of their wallet or another guy points a gun to someones head and takes their money. a difference that means years in prison. hey if i offended someone here, i didn't mean to. the guy way overreacted and appapently without authority.

ShooMac · 04-14-2005, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

hey if i offended someone here, i didn't mean to.

I would hope that we are all big enough boys (and girls) here to be able to post and read without offending/being offended.

We all know who the trolls are, and I doubt that any of us take them seriously anyway.

toolman · 04-14-2005, 10:57 AM

While I like to think I would've handled it differently, none of us were in this mans' shoes. I'm sure that most of our Az. members have seen illegals in the desert as I have and when you see them it is very obvious what they are. Sort of like the judicial definition of porn-you know it when you see it! As far as I'm concerned, it might make them think twice about coming back instead of just getting a free meal and a nice little bus ride back across the border. I can sympathize with the economic realities these guys are probably facing, but, I cross international borders several times a month and never have to sneak in or out. Of course I'm there for legal purposes and if I wasn't, I wouldn't complain about getting caught by anyone with the cajones to do it!

04-13-2005, 06:05 PM	#24
jerry Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 10,881 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 1	[quote=Rugged]What happens when you court martial an Army reservist? do they have to become an Air force reservist?/QUOTE] EASY........ :jet: __________________ I'm a down home back woods redneck

04-14-2005, 12:55 AM	#28
toolman Mr. Fixit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: abilene,tx Posts: 5,582 Blog Entries: 22	O.K., first post in five weeks and I'm prob'ly going to stick my foot in my mouth again! IMO, the key phrase/word in all of this is "ILLEGAL aliens". These ILLEGAL aliens were in our country ILLEGALLY, and as such, have NO rights. As far as I'm concerned, this is akin to a rapist filing charges because his victim didn't tell him she had VD. It's all pretty simple, stay where you belong or go through the proper channels to get here and you don't have to worry about it! My quess is that these people wouldn't be trying it again, but our bleeding heart libs will offer them full citizenship and a hefty cash settlement for the pain and emotional trauma incurred while trespassing in our country! __________________ Don't be messin' with my gun!

04-14-2005, 07:49 AM	#32
Rufus Rhastus J Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: West, Central Florida, Third World America Posts: 6,339 Images: 1	I noticed no one suggested the other obvious, and plausable posibility. Namely, he was ordered to do this silly act. Yes, ordered. As we all know, Bush loves these people...they are his next voting block! Even Fox news wonders why this administration has so little interest in secureing our southern border. Just a thought. __________________ "They cannot be trusted.....The Romulans (our politicos) are without honor." Worf

04-14-2005, 08:27 AM	#33
dhermesc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: East Central Kansas Posts: 1,762	Several times during the news conference, Patrick said that his military training took over when he saw the men coming out of the bushes. He said he pulled over at the rest stop in Sentinel on Interstate 8 to relieve his dog. He said he was walking the dog when the men appeared. Although Patrick said he had no preconceived notions about who the men were, he also said he thought they were going to attack him because they thought he was a Border Patrol agent. He said his dog, a black Labrador, is similar to ones used by Border Patrol agents. He said he first saw one man walk out of the bushes toward a white Chevy Suburban with California license plates parked in the lot next to Patrick's car. A few seconds later, six more men emerged. Although Patrick said at one point that he was "attacked," he later acknowledged that none of them had weapons and none tried to touch him. But he insisted that might not have been the case if his dog had not gotten between them and if he had not been armed. Meanwhile, Haab's family is worried that he is being used as a political scapegoat and that authorities will convict him and send him to jail to send a message to fringe groups on the border. "This couldn't have happened at a worse time," said Haab's father, Dave Haab, of New Paris, Ind. "They are trying to make an example out of Pat. They are trying to avoid a blood bath down there on the border. I think he has been charged unfairly and that he is being used as a political football." http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...4detain14.html __________________ Liberty is for those that claim it.

04-14-2005, 08:32 AM	#34
Gunnie Ed Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: three clicks left of center. Posts: 808	i don't know, there's a difference between shooting and killing. i mean, he didn't say he was going to kill them, nor did he expressly state how or where he would shoot them. he just said "lie on the ground or be shot." naturally you don't argue with someone who says that, because nobody wants to be shot anyway. perhaps he knew that they were illegals. and by "knew" i mean "he knew, factually." in all honesty, i feel this country is at the point where the only way to fix the problems, is to let them get worse. you know, like a computer that's so full of viruses and spyware that the only way to fix it is to replace the hard drive. __________________ http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y95.../warinmine.gif

04-13-2005, 08:50 PM	#27
BadKarma Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 110	All movies and such fiction aside, vigilantism is generally a bad thing.

04-14-2005, 01:23 AM	#29
Troy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Manitoba Canada Posts: 2,501 Images: 3	Toolman, does what your saying give law enforcement or military the right to just pick someone out of a crowd or whatever and treat them in the way mentioned in this thread? And to pick someone to go after with really no reason or any suspision at all. I think if the point of the thread is that the Army guy acted without just cause, well then he should pay for that. The fact that the guys he collared were illegals was a lucky break for him.

04-14-2005, 10:57 AM	#40
toolman Mr. Fixit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: abilene,tx Posts: 5,582 Blog Entries: 22	While I like to think I would've handled it differently, none of us were in this mans' shoes. I'm sure that most of our Az. members have seen illegals in the desert as I have and when you see them it is very obvious what they are. Sort of like the judicial definition of porn-you know it when you see it! As far as I'm concerned, it might make them think twice about coming back instead of just getting a free meal and a nice little bus ride back across the border. I can sympathize with the economic realities these guys are probably facing, but, I cross international borders several times a month and never have to sneak in or out. Of course I'm there for legal purposes and if I wasn't, I wouldn't complain about getting caught by anyone with the cajones to do it! __________________ Don't be messin' with my gun!