M1a/M14 Options, Help me Somebody

GunBanLand · 10-20-2005, 10:54 PM

New here, Hey everyone. I just moved back to Calif after spending the last few years in Montana. Been gone long enough to not get in on the weapons they banned while I was gone. Looks like now I have few choices for anything resembing a decent legal weapon along the lines of those now banned. Looking at the M1A but seeing way too many options. As far as my use? Plinking, reloading, something to have besides my hunting firearms in my hand when and if needed, no match competeing but I never say never. So many options. Match grade, Socom, trigger styles, barrel lengths, stock finishes and to glass bed or not? with my intended use I would appreciate hearing some input. If money were no object, but common sense in getting something decent for the buck was key what do you all think? Any gripes or boasts one way or the other? Thanks in advance.
TC

Thrawn · 10-20-2005, 11:00 PM

Your use sounds a lot like mine, Ive been told a standard model with national match sights and trigger group will be the best bet. I still have'nt gotten around to getting mine yet, I better hurry before it's too late.
BTW; Welcome to G&G!

:right:

Gyrene · 10-22-2005, 08:33 PM

A Standard length M1A is the best buy, the most accurate and the most reliable, of all the Commercial Springfield Armory products. As to Match Conditioning, the only advantage would be with a Super Match model, which is more than a bit expensive (the last time I looked they were about $2,500.00 to $2,900.00), as I have seen fewer problems with them (as it should be for that money). If you get a offer to buy M1A tools and gages, extra magazines, slings, etc, buy all they will let you get or what you can afford, you won't get a better price, than in their special offers, and the quality is as good as you can find (except maybe USGI stuff).

Keep in mind, the more USGI parts on it, the better. Also the Commercial Springfield Armory advises you to not disassemble the rifle, and implies you lose any Warranty if you do. I will tell you right now, you absolutely have to disassemble it for proper maintenance, and lubrication. When you first get it, the receiver and bolt are fairly well lubed, but the Operating Rod, the Operating Rod Spring, the Operating Rod Spring Guide, the bottom of the barrel (under the Operating Rod), and the Operating Rod Guide are usually dry and ABSOLUTELY NEED GREASE!

Some problems can crop up in the first 50 or so rounds you fire, unless you lube the rifle properly. I have seen the Trigger Group and/or the Magazine fall out of new M1A's, on each shot. The source of this is usually traced to the fact that the Operating Rod Spring Guide is dry and tends to release the Magazine (the point of the Operating Rod Spring Guide is the front catch for the magazine) because it doesn't move freely and may not completely engage the Magazine when you insert it.

Some parts that are best replaced with USGI, are: the complete rear sight (get a National Match rear sight), the Trigger housing (get a complete USGI Trigger Group), and Bolt (get a complete USGI Bolt if at all possible), which must be headspaced, after you install it, before you shoot the M1A. If it is a .308 (as stamped on the barrel), then headspace it with .308 gages. If it is a 7.62 x 51mm (as stamped on the barrel) then use the USGI Headspace gages. I have seen them in both configurations.

I do not have one now, but I have had one, and I have an M1A Super Match lined up to buy in the very near future. It may seem that I am not very fond of the M1A, but the reverse is true, you just need to learn about them to get the performance you are expecting. If you are planning to shoot in competition, also consider Fulton Armory, or Smith Enterprises.

As to the legality of the M1A in California, it is legal, with a Muzzle Brake, but not with a Flash Suppressor (Flash Hider),(a Flash Hider/Flash Suppressor changes it into an "Assault Weapon", which had to be registered with the California DOJ, by 31 December 1999, and there are no provisions for registering any "Assault Weapon" after that date). The Muzzle Brake from the Commercial Springfield Armory, is not the most accurate one of the ones available. Smith Enterprises offers one that from what I have seen, is the best, for retaining the inherent accuracy (found in those with the original Flash Suppressor (Hider)), of the M1A/M14.

`

GunBanLand · 10-23-2005, 12:01 AM

Thanks both Thrawn and Gyrene. A wealth of information Gyrene, man that sure helped. Excuse my ignorance as I am not a military rifle type guy but what is USGI ? I would think it is something military related? US General Infantry maybe?
So far I hear the Socum 16 and Socum II are legal and not legal here in gun ban land. Most of the Calif gun dealers have gone elsewhere seeing they have little future here. Any info on that and if they are legal are they worth the money @ about $2400.00 ?
Would it be wise to consider buying some beat up M1 A and sending it off to Fulton to be resmithed into something of greatness?
Thanks again guys for the replies and thanks a bunch Gyrene for the usefull info. I would appreciate hearing what your thoughts are as to my questions here. I'm close to buying. The money is in hand I am just seeking as much info on which opition is best before I plunk it down if that makes any sense?
Thanks again,
GBL

lefty o · 10-23-2005, 12:35 AM

USGI= U.S. Government Issue.

GunBanLand · 10-23-2005, 12:52 PM

Thanks. I was in the right general direction anyway. So how does one accuire parts that are USGI? Still wanting to hear views regarding the Socums VS having Fulton do up a custom M1 A.
See Ya

Gyrene · 10-23-2005, 08:44 PM

Actually Fulton calls theirs an M-14 S/A. I believe that Smith Enterprises also calls theirs an M-14 S/A. I know that some of the Smith Enterprises M-14 S/A's had forged receivers, at least the early ones. If you buy from either of these companies, remember the M-14's are not cheap, and you will have to wait (some have reported waiting over a year for their M-14 S/A Rifle), but it is worth the wait.

Forged Receivers are better because they are stronger, however that doesn't mean the Investment Cast Receivers are not very good. If it was not for investment cast gun parts, the prices of guns would be far and away more expensive than they are. In general, if there was a serious problem with the use of Investment Cast Receivers on M-14's or M1A's, they would not be available.

The M1A name is copyrighted (maybe that is Patented) by the Commercial Company called Springfield Armory. Do not confuse the Springfield Armory, Springfield, MA (the Government Armory) with Springfield Armory, Geneseo, IL (the Commercial arms manufacturer). The Commercial Springfield Armory bought the name from Springfield Armory, Springfield, MA when it went out of the business of manufacturing Military Firearms and became a Museum and National Park like in 1965/1968 (I may be incorrect here, with the time frame, but it is something like that).

USGI parts for the M14, are sometimes available at Gun Shows, from Fulton Armory, and other various suppliers.

California is the biggest gun market in the US, and while the gun manufacturers may not offer all of their wares to Californians, they do supply what is legal to purchase within the laws of California. Remember all handguns that are sold in California have to pass the drop testing specified by the state of California, at a laboratory specified by the state of California. The state of California in its infinite wisdom calls any differences in a handgun (i.e. Brushed Stainless, Polished Stainless, . . . ) a totally different handgun. This requires the gun manufacturer to submit every different firearm for Drop Testing. I have heard the number $10,000.00 as being what the handgun manufacturers are charged for the Drop Test. Then the Handgun Manufacturer has to pay a fee every 2 years to maintain the hand gun on the Approved list, or subject it to the Drop Test with the appropriate costs, again and again. Since the hand gun manufacturers are doing this, it shows that the California hand Gun market is worth the added costs.

In the case of rifles, there are specific rules on what is legal and what is illegal on any rifle offered for sale in California. The California Department of Justice has a website that you can review as to what is and what isn't legal.

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/index.html

They also have a phone number to call. I do not know what it is, right now, but it is available. If you call them, remember the person on the other end is working for a living, and is usually very helpful. Do not yell at them, do not berate them, as they are not responsible for the law, they are only helping you interpret it.

Since I am not a fan of short barreled rifles, such as the Bush Rifles, Scout Rifles and SOCOM Rifles, I have no idea of the prices. Short barreled Rifles make entirely TOO MUCH NOISE, and lose accuracy that is available with the longer barrels. Since I work at a shooting range, I see and HEAR all of the short barreled Rifles every day, and am exposed to the EXCESSIVE NOISE created by them. You get only one set of ears, and even though I wear 33db rated ear plugs, with 29db Ear Muffs over them, when several of these short barreled Rifles are fired too close to where I am on the range, at the end of the day, I feel as though I have been in a street fight, with my body beaten and bruised, and my ears ring for hours afterward. The shooters of these short barreled Rifles are laughing and having a good time enjoying the loudness of the noise their short barreled Rifle makes. Well, one day they are going to wonder why they have trouble hearing, and will not remember the short barreled Rifle noise!

`

GunBanLand · 10-24-2005, 09:40 AM

Very informative Gyrene. Thanks again, I will heed your advice.

Thrawn · 10-24-2005, 05:03 PM

Get yourself a bunch of surplus ball ammo and take it to the range. I would also recommend getting "Fred's guide to becoming a rifleman" from www.fredsm14stocks.com losts of info in there, even if you're already a experienced shooter. I just got it, Boston's gun bible, and a bunch of AQTs (Army Qualification Target) from Fred's and I'm not the least dissapointed. (He even added some other fun targets no charge)

10-20-2005, 10:54 PM	#1
GunBanLand Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 21 Trader Rating: (0)	M1a/M14 Options, Help me Somebody New here, Hey everyone. I just moved back to Calif after spending the last few years in Montana. Been gone long enough to not get in on the weapons they banned while I was gone. Looks like now I have few choices for anything resembing a decent legal weapon along the lines of those now banned. Looking at the M1A but seeing way too many options. As far as my use? Plinking, reloading, something to have besides my hunting firearms in my hand when and if needed, no match competeing but I never say never. So many options. Match grade, Socom, trigger styles, barrel lengths, stock finishes and to glass bed or not? with my intended use I would appreciate hearing some input. If money were no object, but common sense in getting something decent for the buck was key what do you all think? Any gripes or boasts one way or the other? Thanks in advance. TC

10-22-2005, 08:33 PM	#3
Gyrene Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA Posts: 886 Trader Rating: (0)	A Standard length M1A is the best buy, the most accurate and the most reliable, of all the Commercial Springfield Armory products. As to Match Conditioning, the only advantage would be with a Super Match model, which is more than a bit expensive (the last time I looked they were about $2,500.00 to $2,900.00), as I have seen fewer problems with them (as it should be for that money). If you get a offer to buy M1A tools and gages, extra magazines, slings, etc, buy all they will let you get or what you can afford, you won't get a better price, than in their special offers, and the quality is as good as you can find (except maybe USGI stuff). Keep in mind, the more USGI parts on it, the better. Also the Commercial Springfield Armory advises you to not disassemble the rifle, and implies you lose any Warranty if you do. I will tell you right now, you absolutely have to disassemble it for proper maintenance, and lubrication. When you first get it, the receiver and bolt are fairly well lubed, but the Operating Rod, the Operating Rod Spring, the Operating Rod Spring Guide, the bottom of the barrel (under the Operating Rod), and the Operating Rod Guide are usually dry and ABSOLUTELY NEED GREASE! Some problems can crop up in the first 50 or so rounds you fire, unless you lube the rifle properly. I have seen the Trigger Group and/or the Magazine fall out of new M1A's, on each shot. The source of this is usually traced to the fact that the Operating Rod Spring Guide is dry and tends to release the Magazine (the point of the Operating Rod Spring Guide is the front catch for the magazine) because it doesn't move freely and may not completely engage the Magazine when you insert it. Some parts that are best replaced with USGI, are: the complete rear sight (get a National Match rear sight), the Trigger housing (get a complete USGI Trigger Group), and Bolt (get a complete USGI Bolt if at all possible), which must be headspaced, after you install it, before you shoot the M1A. If it is a .308 (as stamped on the barrel), then headspace it with .308 gages. If it is a 7.62 x 51mm (as stamped on the barrel) then use the USGI Headspace gages. I have seen them in both configurations. I do not have one now, but I have had one, and I have an M1A Super Match lined up to buy in the very near future. It may seem that I am not very fond of the M1A, but the reverse is true, you just need to learn about them to get the performance you are expecting. If you are planning to shoot in competition, also consider Fulton Armory, or Smith Enterprises. As to the legality of the M1A in California, it is legal, with a Muzzle Brake, but not with a Flash Suppressor (Flash Hider),(a Flash Hider/Flash Suppressor changes it into an "Assault Weapon", which had to be registered with the California DOJ, by 31 December 1999, and there are no provisions for registering any "Assault Weapon" after that date). The Muzzle Brake from the Commercial Springfield Armory, is not the most accurate one of the ones available. Smith Enterprises offers one that from what I have seen, is the best, for retaining the inherent accuracy (found in those with the original Flash Suppressor (Hider)), of the M1A/M14. ` Last edited by Gyrene; 10-22-2005 at 08:46 PM.

10-23-2005, 08:44 PM	#7
Gyrene Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA Posts: 886 Trader Rating: (0)	Actually Fulton calls theirs an M-14 S/A. I believe that Smith Enterprises also calls theirs an M-14 S/A. I know that some of the Smith Enterprises M-14 S/A's had forged receivers, at least the early ones. If you buy from either of these companies, remember the M-14's are not cheap, and you will have to wait (some have reported waiting over a year for their M-14 S/A Rifle), but it is worth the wait. Forged Receivers are better because they are stronger, however that doesn't mean the Investment Cast Receivers are not very good. If it was not for investment cast gun parts, the prices of guns would be far and away more expensive than they are. In general, if there was a serious problem with the use of Investment Cast Receivers on M-14's or M1A's, they would not be available. The M1A name is copyrighted (maybe that is Patented) by the Commercial Company called Springfield Armory. Do not confuse the Springfield Armory, Springfield, MA (the Government Armory) with Springfield Armory, Geneseo, IL (the Commercial arms manufacturer). The Commercial Springfield Armory bought the name from Springfield Armory, Springfield, MA when it went out of the business of manufacturing Military Firearms and became a Museum and National Park like in 1965/1968 (I may be incorrect here, with the time frame, but it is something like that). USGI parts for the M14, are sometimes available at Gun Shows, from Fulton Armory, and other various suppliers. California is the biggest gun market in the US, and while the gun manufacturers may not offer all of their wares to Californians, they do supply what is legal to purchase within the laws of California. Remember all handguns that are sold in California have to pass the drop testing specified by the state of California, at a laboratory specified by the state of California. The state of California in its infinite wisdom calls any differences in a handgun (i.e. Brushed Stainless, Polished Stainless, . . . ) a totally different handgun. This requires the gun manufacturer to submit every different firearm for Drop Testing. I have heard the number $10,000.00 as being what the handgun manufacturers are charged for the Drop Test. Then the Handgun Manufacturer has to pay a fee every 2 years to maintain the hand gun on the Approved list, or subject it to the Drop Test with the appropriate costs, again and again. Since the hand gun manufacturers are doing this, it shows that the California hand Gun market is worth the added costs. In the case of rifles, there are specific rules on what is legal and what is illegal on any rifle offered for sale in California. The California Department of Justice has a website that you can review as to what is and what isn't legal. http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/index.html They also have a phone number to call. I do not know what it is, right now, but it is available. If you call them, remember the person on the other end is working for a living, and is usually very helpful. Do not yell at them, do not berate them, as they are not responsible for the law, they are only helping you interpret it. Since I am not a fan of short barreled rifles, such as the Bush Rifles, Scout Rifles and SOCOM Rifles, I have no idea of the prices. Short barreled Rifles make entirely TOO MUCH NOISE, and lose accuracy that is available with the longer barrels. Since I work at a shooting range, I see and HEAR all of the short barreled Rifles every day, and am exposed to the EXCESSIVE NOISE created by them. You get only one set of ears, and even though I wear 33db rated ear plugs, with 29db Ear Muffs over them, when several of these short barreled Rifles are fired too close to where I am on the range, at the end of the day, I feel as though I have been in a street fight, with my body beaten and bruised, and my ears ring for hours afterward. The shooters of these short barreled Rifles are laughing and having a good time enjoying the loudness of the noise their short barreled Rifle makes. Well, one day they are going to wonder why they have trouble hearing, and will not remember the short barreled Rifle noise! ` Last edited by Gyrene; 10-23-2005 at 08:47 PM.

10-20-2005, 11:00 PM	#2
Thrawn Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Okeefenokee Posts: 1,618 Trader Rating: (0)	Your use sounds a lot like mine, Ive been told a standard model with national match sights and trigger group will be the best bet. I still have'nt gotten around to getting mine yet, I better hurry before it's too late. BTW; Welcome to G&G! :right:

10-23-2005, 12:01 AM	#4
GunBanLand Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 21 Trader Rating: (0)	Thanks both Thrawn and Gyrene. A wealth of information Gyrene, man that sure helped. Excuse my ignorance as I am not a military rifle type guy but what is USGI ? I would think it is something military related? US General Infantry maybe? So far I hear the Socum 16 and Socum II are legal and not legal here in gun ban land. Most of the Calif gun dealers have gone elsewhere seeing they have little future here. Any info on that and if they are legal are they worth the money @ about $2400.00 ? Would it be wise to consider buying some beat up M1 A and sending it off to Fulton to be resmithed into something of greatness? Thanks again guys for the replies and thanks a bunch Gyrene for the usefull info. I would appreciate hearing what your thoughts are as to my questions here. I'm close to buying. The money is in hand I am just seeking as much info on which opition is best before I plunk it down if that makes any sense? Thanks again, GBL

10-23-2005, 12:35 AM	#5
lefty o Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: mn Posts: 4,693 Trader Rating: (0)	USGI= U.S. Government Issue.

10-23-2005, 12:52 PM	#6
GunBanLand Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 21 Trader Rating: (0)	Thanks. I was in the right general direction anyway. So how does one accuire parts that are USGI? Still wanting to hear views regarding the Socums VS having Fulton do up a custom M1 A. See Ya

10-24-2005, 09:40 AM	#8
GunBanLand Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 21 Trader Rating: (0)	Very informative Gyrene. Thanks again, I will heed your advice.

10-24-2005, 05:03 PM	#9
Thrawn Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Okeefenokee Posts: 1,618 Trader Rating: (0)	Get yourself a bunch of surplus ball ammo and take it to the range. I would also recommend getting "Fred's guide to becoming a rifleman" from www.fredsm14stocks.com losts of info in there, even if you're already a experienced shooter. I just got it, Boston's gun bible, and a bunch of AQTs (Army Qualification Target) from Fred's and I'm not the least dissapointed. (He even added some other fun targets no charge)