If there are any expert shooters out there who doubt that the .22lr will not ruin their day may want to sharpen their research skills, without an empirical study and personally taking one at point blank range.
As gunblast says (paraphrased), "There's a whole lot of "experts" that will tell you a .22 isn't good for protection, but there's a whole lot more dead people that would tell you otherwise."
As a military combat veteran there were none that I know of who survived a .45 to the brain and lived.
My comment may have been a bit exaggerated, but people do survive strikes from .45 rounds. I know someone who was shot in the face with a .45ACP at less than 10 feet. It shattered his cheekbone, and he lost most of the teeth on that side of his face. However, he never lost consciousness, and lives a normal life other than the obvious physical results, and suffers from some PTSD. I do concede the fact that 90% of the time a headshot is lethal but it's not certain it will kill you outright. I know I am preaching to the choir, but that is why double taps are so important.
When I watched the clip there were 531 likes and 7 dislikes and when I was done watching it there 8 dislikes.
I think this Youtube clip should be taken down. It is extremely misleading to use 1/2" pine as the sole criteria for measuring a defensive weapon. I'm a frequent poster here with a lifelong relationship with 22LR's. I even carry one for self defense (SD) but what these two said amounted to mixing apples with oranges. It's possible to have your facts right and still have your conclusions wrong. These two managed to do both.
Successful SD with a 22LR requires three things:
1) Bullet placement
2) Correct ammo
3) No return fire
These two knuckleheads managed to kill a pineboard that didn't shoot back. As one poster correctly observed, "change that 1/2" pine to 1/2" oak and see what happens."
Every 22LR ammunition manufacturer will tell you #2 above does not exist. Not one advertises their 22LR for SD. The highly vaunted "stinger" is rated by CCI as suitable for "pest" control. The even more impressive "velociter" is rated suitable for "varmints". Where does one get SELF DEFENSE out of those descriptions?
Yet these two nitwits would have you believe you can defend yourself using 22 SHORTS using a pistol with a 2.5" barrel. Unless your attacker is an angry, unarmed squirrel that is virtually impossible.
I was trained for days on end in how to kill with a 22LR (One State I worked in wouldn't let us use anything but 22LR). I was trained for SD in men's restrooms, in front yards, next to my car, in alleys, and in parking lots (And all of them in the dark or under artificial lighting). The training lasted two weeks to do what someone with a .45 could learn to do in 5 minutes.
Because I completed the course, about two years ago I participated in an experiment in SD. The object of the experiment was to determine the importance of shot placement. One shooter had a S&W 9mm. The other had a Detonix .45 and I had a Ruger Mark II. We went through four SD scenarios. In two of the four I killed my attacker. In one there was "no result" (We were not allowed to shoot our attacker in the back if he ran away as that is not SD). In the fourth I was killed.
The .45 Detonix survived all four tests. I tied with the 9mm. In terms of shot placement, I outscored them both and by a considerable margin. It didn't do me any good though due to limitations of the bullet damage. As the fellow on the left noted in the video, "It might take a week for him to die." If it takes him a week to die, he's got six days in which to kill you back. Those are pretty good odds for him. Pretty piss poor for you.
Again, I admit I carry a 22LR for SD. I figure surviving 75% is a lot better than 0%. It also fits in well with my survival skills in a SHTF situation (You'll never starve with a 22LR. You always will with a .45.). But I'm trained for it and you have to be trained for it or it just won't work. Handing an amateur a 22 and saying it's for SD is rather like handing them a sharpened pencil and saying it's for SD. While it may be that a pro can kill with a pencil it doesn't mean an amateur can.
The clip is extremely deceiving. It ain't that simple. It's a science and its a weak science. It doesn't come with a guaranteed outcome. This video would not survive criticism in any other forum on this site. Try it and see.
OK. Today I took my marlin 981T out and set up two targets at 200 yards; a 2x4 and a shotgun shell. I hit each one twice using one the hardest hitting 22LR rounds out there, the 1425 FPS 40 grain velociter. Both rounds punched right through the 2x4 (1.75" or 3.5X as thick as the .5" pine these two used.). Looking at the 2x4 afterwards I would say it was quite possible a velociter would go through two 2x4's at 200 yards. It certainly did one with no problem.
So how did it do with the shotgun shell?
The shotgun shell was composed a plastic tube inserted into a short, light brass cartridge. One round hit the plastic and the other hit the brass.
It went right through both sides of the plastic.
It dented and then bounced off the brass casing.
The thickness of shotgun shell brass is pretty thin - Probably on the order of the thickness of a sheet of paper. I tested it with my teeth and was able to create the same dent the velociter did just by biting down. It was pretty easy.
There is a major difference between shooting pine wood (Probably the softest wood sold) and paper thin brass. True, it's not an entirely fair test because the shotgun shell is rounded and presents a deflective surface. But it put a pretty good size dent in it. I think it hit head on. I have also seen 22LR stopped by the top lip of a pop/beer can at 100 yards. I had one fail to penetrate both sides of a squirrel's head at 50. You can't shoot through any kind of a metal sign with a 22 no matter how thin.
I just don't want to see anybody here hand his wife a 22LR ( or, worse, loaded with Shorts) Derringer and believe that true SD has been achieved because of this film. That could end ugly.
If someone will carry a .22 short pistol, but won't carry something bigger due to size, weight, recoil, or whatever, then I'm all for them carrying a .22 short pistol.
I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of a .22 in your pocket is better than a .45 on your dresser.
It obviously wouldn't be optimal, nor would it be my personal choice. But anything is better than nothing every time.
I know a trucker that is in Prison for second degree murder, he left for a run and broke down soon after leaving, caught a ride home to find wife and step daughter in bed with next door neighbor, in pissed rage he grabbed a ruger single six full of bird shot and poped the broads in the butt the guy put his arm up and caught a load in the inside the arm, a pellet made it to the heart and he died.
In the end I'd say if it can break the skin who knows?
Last edited by Rex in OTZ; 03-19-2012 at 03:29 PM.
As gunblast says (paraphrased), "There's a whole lot of "experts" that will tell you a .22 isn't good for protection, but there's a whole lot more dead people that would tell you otherwise."
My Ex-wifes cousin was shot in the chest at 75 yards with a Marlin model 60. It went through a rib, in the front of his heart, out the back of his heart taking a little heart meat with it and lodged in his back. He went straight down and took his last breath around 45 seconds later.
Personally, I wouldn't want to have a .22 as my only defense, but it is lethal to a human at 100 yards and would serve the purpose if that's all you had.
Post SHTF, ANY bullet wound is most likely going to be lethal no matter where one is shot. Arm, leg, head, chest. It doesn't matter. if it gets infected, septsis will set in, followed by death and Rigor Mortis.
__________________ Everytime someone sells a gun without buying another, a nice kitten is placed into a wood chipper.
OK. Today I took my marlin 981T out and set up two targets at 200 yards; a 2x4 and a shotgun shell. I hit each one twice using one the hardest hitting 22LR rounds out there, the 1425 FPS 40 grain velociter. Both rounds punched right through the 2x4 (1.75" or 3.5X as thick as the .5" pine these two used.). Looking at the 2x4 afterwards I would say it was quite possible a velociter would go through two 2x4's at 200 yards. It certainly did one with no problem.
So how did it do with the shotgun shell?
The shotgun shell was composed a plastic tube inserted into a short, light brass cartridge. One round hit the plastic and the other hit the brass.
It went right through both sides of the plastic.
It dented and then bounced off the brass casing.
The thickness of shotgun shell brass is pretty thin - Probably on the order of the thickness of a sheet of paper. I tested it with my teeth and was able to create the same dent the velociter did just by biting down. It was pretty easy.
There is a major difference between shooting pine wood (Probably the softest wood sold) and paper thin brass. True, it's not an entirely fair test because the shotgun shell is rounded and presents a deflective surface. But it put a pretty good size dent in it. I think it hit head on. I have also seen 22LR stopped by the top lip of a pop/beer can at 100 yards. I had one fail to penetrate both sides of a squirrel's head at 50. You can't shoot through any kind of a metal sign with a 22 no matter how thin.
I just don't want to see anybody here hand his wife a 22LR ( or, worse, loaded with Shorts) Derringer and believe that true SD has been achieved because of this film. That could end ugly.
I tried to get my wife to buy a 9mm, or .45. She wanted the .380. I would've never let her buy a .22 for SD.
__________________ Everytime someone sells a gun without buying another, a nice kitten is placed into a wood chipper.
Nope, I don't plan on getting attacked by pine board creatures.
I will be repeating myself but anyway, IMHO:The human body is way too varied in composition to rely on any commmon rimfire cartridge or centerfire handgun of common size and caliber to be reliable in a one shot stop.
Bullet placement and performance is the key here. So choose a weapon platform that will delver the maximum amount of rounds on target using a cartridge with the largest caliber and performance that you can properly control. That will funtion in a reliable manner. Sized so that you will have it with you when needed.
If for whatever reasons it's a .22LR 4"bbl Ruger MkIII then fine. If it's a .50AE Desert Eagle well okay.
Just know how to use it properly if the time ever comes to do so.
And have enough rounds in the fireram to shoot them to the ground/stop the threat.
Just know how to use it properly if the time ever comes to do so.
And have enough rounds in the firearm to shoot them to the ground/stop the threat.
I have never understood why .22lr autos are limited to 10+1 capacity. (With the exception of the M&P having a 12+1) Part of the usefulness of the smaller round is higher capacity. If it's possible to have a compact 9mm or .40 in 16+1 capacity, 20+ rounds in a standard .22lr mag shouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. Especially with the current trending towards rimfire being shot more due to ammo prices.
__________________
Verd ori'shya beskar'gam. - "A warrior is more than his armor"
A guy with a .22 who knows how to use it, will kill you if you are A: unarmed, B:unprepared or C:untrained with whatever weapon you carry no matter what it is.
__________________
'There is nothing new under the sun. It has all been done before.' -Sherlock Holmes
I have never understood why .22lr autos are limited to 10+1 capacity. (With the exception of the M&P having a 12+1) Part of the usefulness of the smaller round is higher capacity. If it's possible to have a compact 9mm or .40 in 16+1 capacity, 20+ rounds in a standard .22lr mag shouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. Especially with the current trending towards rimfire being shot more due to ammo prices.
The Ruger Mark series can have their clips modified to hold 12 rounds. It's on a website somewhere on how to do it. I never opted to try it for fear it wouldn't work at all when I most needed it.
The odds of a 22LR becoming "defensive" obviously rise with the number of hits you inflict. In my pistol, the math is 12 hits (Which is why I took interest in the modified clip.). That number of hits is not a guarantee of a stop but it is a high probability of one. It's also achieved regardless of aim (A 22 can hit you in the arm and up in your heart.) except for leg hits as determined by the Israeli Army using 10-22's.
If you want a guaranteed stop with 22LR, that equates to approximately 20 hits, depending upon ammo.
Bullet placement and performance is the key here. So choose a weapon platform that will delver the maximum amount of rounds on target using a cartridge with the largest caliber and performance that you can properly control. That will funtion in a reliable manner. Sized so that you will have it with you when needed.
I agree but "performance" must be defined for a 22 because bullet placement is useless without penetration. Penetration requires overcoming bone and that means VELOCITY and that means barrel length and rated bullet speed determine performance. A short, 2.5" barrel pistol will not reach the rated velocity of the ammo.
Coroner examinations of deaths by 22 show the bullet impacted at a minimum velocity of 900 FPS. An unknowledgeable shooter with a 2.5" barrel may be unaware that he's not getting the advertised bullet speed. He could easily be shooting 750-800 FPS.
There a lot of other ammunition considerations for 22LR in SD but I won't go into them. My objection to the Youtube clip was 531 people posted "like" to only 7 posting "dislike". Only 7 people knew what was wrong with the video and 531 didn't. These guys had conducted a faulty test and were believed by 98.7% of everyone out there. Sure! A 22LR will kill. That's why I carry one and why none of us volunteer to stand in front of one. But you load that pistol they had with Shorts and you could be killed by a guy with a baseball bat. That he dies a week later is irrelevent if you died. The concept behind SD is YOU LIVE.
One wonders how many wives are now carrying 22 shorts bought by their husbands after seeing that video?
But I'll post my complaint where it belongs - on Youtube and not here.
That's expensive. big shrek, That's why I got a Semi instead of a bolt.
Four or five should take you up to the .45 level. They tumble too.
CCI Stingers are going 1640 fps, and the hollow points expand nicely.
42Likes
Call me in opposition 
Did my own test 
Two thumbs up! 
