My latest purchase..

[Agent006]

Good god, I'm an IDIOT. I just figured it out. The gas plug has this little ramped slot that allows the gas to pass from the barrel and up into the tube with the ramp letting the gas flow from the barrel's port to the port that let's the pressure out for the gas adjustment. By ramped I mean it goes up and at an angle because the port in the barrel is slightly offset in front of the adjustment port directly above it so it's designed to direct the gas up back to that port, from where it's then free to travel backwards against the face of the piston. Well, this plug turns in not just three directions but in four. The way I had it was so that the gas plug was horizontal which yes, puts the ramp vertical but in the WRONG direction. It blocks off the gas port and is basically upside down. I didn't realize this when I had put the gas plug back in before because I was too busy straining to keep the pistol from lauching out, since I have to do this manually without having that tool which is designed for this. Not knowing any better, I'd been facing the rifle from the right side when I put in my gas plug so I kept turning it to face me, not realizing that it could rotate and lock into 4 different positions, one working, two not working, and one which let's it come apart.

It's a good thing I just had a glimmer of intellgence and realized what I was doing wrong. Mooseman had just informed me that my PAWS reciever makes my FAL officially a PRE-BAN, which means there's no applicable limitations on what manufacture parts I choose to put into my weapon. Happier times lie ahead for me and my "FrankenFal".

[Mooseman684]

You aren't an idiot...You are learning about a New Rifle ! So you had it set for single shot, at least it shoots! Get a Manual and Know your rifle, so you can enjoy Years of shooting with it.:right:
Rich

[Agent006]

Anyways, just to share my experience I thought I'd come back and explain what happened when I went shooting on Sunday with the FAL. I went with my father and my sister who's 16 now, and of course she got to fire a gun for the first time. I let her start on my Browning BL-22, a handsomely made lever-action with a Weaver scope. Of course that was an easy gun to handle so then we moved on to the Tokarev 9mm which she found to kick more than she expected, the handgun's muzzle bucking upwards with her in the same way a magnum might do with the rest of us. Still, she handled it pretty well and I let my dad fire the M1 Garand for the first time. The Garand really did well and unlike my first time out with it, this time I had no misfires at all, meaning that perhaps my earlier problems were resolved by an in depth cleaning and lubrication. The weather was pretty hot and humid and I've heard of some having more misfires in colder weather, for whatever reason.

http://img452.imageshack.us/my.php?i...andshot5nu.jpg Here's my sister with the Garand caught in mid-cycle as she blasts a round into the water.

http://img124.imageshack.us/my.php?i...egarand1xj.jpg Me loading the Garand.

http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?i...revpose2mg.jpg I had her work on her stance a bit. I think I showed her the weaver but she sort of worked out a variation of the isosceles. The Tokarev is a gun that will cycle no matter how limp-wristed you might be, which is why I had her work with it rather than my smaller Walther PPK/S.

Then of course I had my sister let loose with the AK which she seemed to love as much as the rest of us, being about the most recoil she could safely handle to the shoulder. She said she felt just a bit sore but she didn't mind it at all, since like myself it seems she agrees that having a sore shoulder is a sign you got your money's worth out of a firearm. She may have been able to shoulder the Garand but I let her simply fire it from the hip and blast away. I used the M1 to blast a couple water bottles I had set up across the watering hole where we were shooting. I didn't catch too many good pictures of the rest of the guns because I have those filmed in short video clips we run in Real Player, though the camera doesn't have audio.

The FAL's first shot went off and I could tell something wasn't right. The gun bucked as it barked off the shot like any bolt-action rifle would, and when the trigger didn't click for a second shot, I could tell that my action wasn't coming back at all. Then I glanced down and noticed my finger bleeding and seeing that I'd smeared some against the charging handle and the side of the stock. I was momentarily stunned and concerned as to what I'd done but it wasn't anything to do with the gun not cycling. I'd mearly caught my finger on something while I was either setting up targets or taking things out of the trunk and handn't noticed until that moment. So after my little scare, I fired a few more shots and had the rifle's gas plug rather stuck. I was onto the right trail but I'd turned the plug in every direction except the right one and got it stuck in the grenade launching mode at which point I left it be and would fix it later that night when I went about figuring out what was wrong. Now the gun is ready to do some damage but I'll just probably have to wait until the next weekend when we can get out and shoot again.

But, at least now I know my sister enjoys shooting as much as I do. Let's see, go to the mall... or fire an AK47? Hm...

[Mooseman684]

Hey Man, You get a pat on the back for getting your Sister into shooting !
Good Job. Can't wait to hear how the FAL does now !
Rich

[Agent006]

I woke up today and got bored and decided to take apart the FAL. I figured out that screw part that holds the two receivers together. One peice just threads into the other and has a couple little metal prongs that squeeze together as you unscrew it. I'm not attempting to take off the buttstock until I have the right stuff and the guts to do it. I don't want to get the spring out and not be able to get it back in. I worked with my gun's action a bit and made sure everything was like I wanted it.

I noticed the friction points where the parts had rubbed the finish off my bolt carrier. There was those slight "buldges" in the bottom of the reciever where I sanded off a sharp little bur that didn't feel right. Looks like whoever built my FrankenFAL probably ran into some issues not with the locking shoulder but with the area behind that where the bolt carrier slams into the front of the reciever. I'm not sure if they grinded a little on the edges to help it fit or if it was just worn from use. This PAWS receiver closes ressembles the Olympic and Williams type, neither of which I'm particularly fond of but this one is as solid as anything military issue. I mean, I'm sure compared to a DSA such might be inferior but let's not forget that military weapons have never been needed to be machined as handsomely as commercial firearms, and so long as I have a reliable weapon with a steel receiver, I'm pretty much satisfied. It's just that if you want something that's already "perfect" and has everything to drop into place, I'd suggest a more reputable source. PAWS however was known for years for automatic weapons and those Sterling sub-machinegun clones.

I found that one of the main reasons my lock-up felt tight was not because of the bolt carrier but because of the rear end of the firing pin and the mating faces between the bolt and it's carrier at the point where it tilts to unlock. There was gritty old grease in there and I cleaned it out and oiled it and everything's very slick now. The bolt carrier could nearly slide back and forth by tilting the gun, but of course the bolt adds a bit of resistance when it slides over the ejector block.

Anyways, I'm thinking my FAL will work fine but I need some inch pattern mags. Know where I could get some for a fair price?

[Mooseman684]

Welll...Look here..http://www.jocoemprise.com/rifles/fnfal.html
And for the tools...http://www.copesdist.com/fnfal.htm

Rich

[Agent006]

Hm, the tools are reasonable but $30 for an inch mag? Elsewhere I've seen them at $23. And another site had them for $15 on sale but sold out. I could have grabbed several inch pattern mags at the gunshow for the same $10 I paid for my spare metric, which for a surplus, half worn-out looking thing I thought was still a bit much. A guy told me about them being $3 a peice in the Shotgun News at one time. But, those were probably metric. It's probably no big deal but I only want to use inch mags because I think my metrics are going to cause that buldging in the bottom of my receiver, which maybe that's not the cause but thinking about the amount of play allowed with the metric mags in the inch magazine well, it seems like the back and forth motion would be slamming the lips of the magazine against the underside of the reciever and cause such wear.

I'm not fond of my forearms and I'd kinda like to have the black, smooth glossy ones you see on alot of the metric rifles. There's some with two air vents on the side and some with three. I believe I've even seen some with the three vents AND slots for the bipod to fold into.

[Agent006]

I went back out to go shoot shooting again with my dad and my sister. This was a bit less spectacular than last time as we had some shopping to do and didn't stay out shooting for too long. I just took the FAL to be testfired again and my No. 4 Enfield since my dad has been with me when I bought the Enfield and hadn't shot it yet. Of course I got a couple pictures while I was there. Nothing too fancy this time.

http://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?i...enfield3ye.jpg The WWII British service rifle in action.

http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shotfal9mt.jpg And the Vietnam era British service rifle. The sights on the FAL remind me alot of the Enfield, so I feel like there's some continuity there even though the FN FAL was a Belgian creation.

The Enfield had a nice kick to it that felt more potent than I'd remembered, course I was wearing a leather jacket and shooting in cold weather the last time I shot it so I was less cushioned from that metal buttplate this time. And of course I fired the FAL with the gas plug installed correctly this time, though my first shot I had the same effect. It wouldn't eject the shell casing. So I bumped up the gas pressure and still nothing. The action was moving smooth because the hammer cocked but the spent round would remain in the chamber, or partially so and the shell wouldn't eject. Finally, I had to set the gas to zero, meaning the gas was now set to maximum and without venting any exhaust. Finally, it would eject shells but with a bit of a tough recoil and I found that the shells weren't going very far so I knew that even though i had it working, something still wasn't quite right. Obviously, the shells are ejecting but apparently because the gas is set so high and the action is slamming back hard enough so that the ejector block is enough to knock the round out, flinging it out of the gun but not slinging it out with the force that it's supposed to.

Unfortunately, I don't have any inch pattern magazines to use in my rifle which I think would lock back the bolt on the last shot. Or perhaps it's as it seems with the metrics and the little post isn't sticking out enough that supposed to be caught by the little "tail" on the follower. But, I can tell that my bolt is moving back as far as it should because the hammer is cocking. It seems like the rounds SHOULD be ejecting from the gun, because I can chamber a round and eject it manually and it'll kick the live round out a pretty good distance. So I thought my extractor was working fine but perhaps not. The extractor is tight but you can move it and feel the tension if you push it with your thumb. It's fairly tight but movable. There was alot of gunpowder on the gas piston when I took it apart later but that's usually normal like on my AK. Anyway, I could pump some rounds out of it but it certainly wasn't ejecting the shells very far and I'm sure it should be doing that with the gas set to a much lower setting.

Other than that, my front sight was too high and I adjusted that. I've cleaned the gun but I'm pretty sure something can't be right for it to only eject rounds on zero. It should be slinging the shells out a pretty good distance and cycle somewhere around 5-7.

[Mooseman684]

if all else is right, sounds like a worn gas piston or Gas tube , but you are supposed to set the Number to just kick out the shell , not launch it !
Are you using Nato Ammo ?

[Agent006]

Yeah, it's just regular old NATO surplus ammo. It there anyway I can do to test the gas tube/piston to see if that's the cause? My piston looked to be in pretty good condition, just that after shooting it, the black gunpower residue spread way back past the piston head, and partly past the two little... other knots along the way. Are metric and inch pistons a different size? I thought MAYBE if my piston was too narrow, the gas would past over the piston without transferring enough gas. It seemed that it would cycle the action back hard enough to put my shoulder through some degree of pain, so I was thinking the gas should be about right. So what about the extractor? Even on 6, the bolt carrier came back enough to cock the hammer. For that matter, it was coming back hard enough to sling the casing a mile on zero but they were barely thumping out of there. Even then, I had a couple times when it didn't eject the shell.

[Mooseman684]

You can shake it and see if the old piston rattles and I would Inspect the Tube with a good light for wear. A new Piston from Tapco is only a couple of bucks, maybe 3, But if you need a gas tube, that may have to come from somebody else. Gasses should not be blowing by the end as much as you are describing. You should Have a sliding fit but not Loose,sloppy,and the gas tube should be round and Smooth inside without grooves or a worn area at the front. As far as the ejection goes, are the shells hitting that scope mount cover as they try to exit...This was a problem with some Of those mounts.
Inspect the extracter for wear/Chipping and the spring for good tension and the face of the EJector for wear/ nicks/chips/Flattening etc. and see what you might need to replace.
Rich

[Agent006]

I hadn't screwed out my gas tube until now and I looked at it. The inside is pretty much smooth like a shotgun barrel, with only very light signs of wear as far as I can tell. It's a bit dirty but I've cleaned it out some. What I notice is that the front part which has the threads, has to screw in a certain way to allow the gas port at the top to vent, which mine does but.. it's also pretty loose. About 3/4 of the way the threads are used but the last quarter of that, doesn't seem to have been screwed into anything. Or at least, it's loose enough when screwed in to allow the tube to wiggle a lot, which it's stopped from wiggling much due to that rear piece it fits into where the piston passes through into the receiver but.. still. I can't seem to tighten it anymore at the front and when I do, it doesn't wiggle as much but then I can't tighten it enough to allow the gas vent to work. There's two small ports a few inches back that direct the gas in a "V" inside of the forearms. Mine was rotated so that the V points downward.

[Mooseman684]

Well it sounds like you may be losing some pressure by the threads, if it is that loose...being it is slotted to allow the regulater to work, it has probably collapsed in diameter a bit /threads are worn. I would replace gas cylinder and piston together, and I dont know that it matters where the 2 vent holes farther down the tube face, I would think UP would be best ! HMMM

[Agent006]

Hmm... I think the pressure is getting past the threads, just like you said. There's enough gunpowder in the threads to prove that much. Unfortunately, I can't seem to screw it in any tighter to seal it up so perhaps the threads on the tube are worn but... inside the gas block where the tube screws in, I took a close look at the the threads there and it seems like to me it should be screwing all the way in but there's a spot in there along the bottom where there's a small gap where two threads are missing. As I don't see any functional purpose for this, I'd assume it's the reason my tube won't screw in all the way.

[Agent006]

Ohhh, wait a minute. True it doesn't fit in all the way but as tight as it get's where I was turning it, maybe those extra treads are to allow for thread wear over time? I don't know about my missing threads in there, but I know in that single turn past where it had been with the vents pointing down, it starts to get really tight and hard to rotate, at which point I could get the vents to point upward while the tube is VERY tight and seems perfectly snug and the slots allow the gas port to work so, as tight as it feels now there's a good chance it's not going to loose pressure now.

[FALna45]

hello
first off, the barrel isn't Steyr. pretty certain it's Inch pattern of some make.
i believe the only open-ear metric barrel was the Argentine and IIRC those used metric gas components (regulator, etc) which is not what you appear to have from the pic.
most all STG barrels have a half-length gas tube soldered into the gas block. also they were cut for the bipod which yours is not.
here's a look at non bipod and bipod cut barrels: (bipod cut is below)

Steyr STG barrels are marked like this (or a variation close to it):

this pic shows a short gas tube STG barrel below a full length

here are inch and metric gas blocks (inch on left)

a primary concern regarding the combination of an inch barrel and a metric lower is the sights. early FALs and all inch versions use a 3mm taller line of sight. replacing the rear sight with a (taller) inch or israeli version would rectify any elevation trouble you may be experiencing.
i do not think the lower is STG either, but rather G1. FN made all the G1s.
Steyr (Austria) made STGs under license after the first 20K or so were purchased from Belgium. (FN)
the reason i think it's G1 rather than STG is all the STG lowers i've seen have the serial # aligned at a level just higher than the "E" in the selector markings, and G1 lowers i've seen are marked as yours with the serial more along the same line as the "E"
compare this STG lower to yours:

also, the aluminum knob you have on the charging handle is a G1 thing.
as far as wether the receiver is inch or metric, it could be either or some of both. the pertinent areas to check (besides external profile) are
the cut for the mag (inch on left)

corresponding portion of mags (again, inch on left)

because the cut out is larger on inch guns, they MAY function w/ either pattern mag but sometimes
the metrics will be sloppy and can cause feeding problems.
the cut for the charging handle (inch on left, cut back to allow for the folding handle)

cuts for the tabs at the rear of the inch dust cover -sorry, i don't have a pic of that.
inch pattern rifles have a BHO which holds the bolt back only when YOU push it up while retracting the handle, not on last shot. you can replace the short pin on the BHO or the whole unit if you desire the last round hold-open.
this feature has nothing to do with using inch or metric magazines.
first thing may be the ammo. i've never used OFV but have heard many bad reports. try some good quality ammo like aussie, port, sa, or hirt if you're that lucky :-)
when troubleshooting i think, tho it can be laborious, it's best to change one thing at a time.
things that come to mind that might give you your symptoms in no particular order:
-confirm the extractor cut out at the breach interfaces well with the extractor, which of course is in good shape and has a new spring.
-friction test the piston w/ the spring and B/BC removed. does it drop right into the receiver if the rifle is pointed up in this condition? are there any scrape marks on the piston? is it curvy?
is it's head close to .430" diameter?
-friction test the charging handle w/ B/BC removed
-friction test the B/BC does it slide easiily? alot of receivers benefit from lightly polishing the rails.
any burrs on the BC rails or underside?
-try the rifle with an OEM (if replaced) HTS
-confirm the recoil tube is tight in the lower and the spring/plunger assembly is gunk and burr free and not over lubricated
-confirm the gas port is clear. may need to eventually open this a bit. (protect the bore w/ a cleaning rod or dowel while drilling up incrementally)
-make sure the gas tube is tight in the gas block.
-receiver a GL Imbel? i've heard some of these had side-to-side narrowing of the receiver in the area the
GL was stamped.
-confirm the BHO and the spring inside it move freely in their respective recess
good luck!

[Mooseman684]

50 % of STG 58's Had Long Gas tubes, the other half had short tubes soldered in place. My STG Steyr Barrel is Not marked like yours But Mine is a Very early 4 digit Gun. We never did figure out which barrel was on Agent 006's Gun.His Receiver IS an Inch Pattern.

[Agent006]

I'm not sure about the barrel either. The gas block and barrel seem to be from the same manufacture with a emblem that looks like a "D" like... D 75. Ths marking is on both, but on the barrel itself on the left side it's preceeded by CF. Both have a 7 digit serial number after that starting with 9. Is that enough clues to help?

As for the mags, I want inch but I only was able to find metrics at the time. The problem I had with my mags is on two occasions, I had the gun seem to be out of ammo and empty while leaving the last bullet in the magazine. I stretched out my magazine catch spring as a cheap attempt to get a bit more resistance out of it but I'm guessing I need inch magazines for reliability.

I'll examine the gas system again when i can but for the most part things seemed the check out. I haven't been able to fire it again yet now that I've tightened the gas tube which I feel was the main cause of problems.