Makarov vs Tokarev

[troy2000]

I have a chance to pick up a Norinco clone of a Tokarev TT33, in 9mm parabellum instead of 7.62x25, for $200.00.

Anyone have any thoughts on Tokarev vs Makarov pistols? The temptation to get the Norinco is based on:

1. Price. I'm probably not going to find a better gun for that kind of money, especially in California, and there'll be no shipping charges. A few years ago two hundred bucks would've sounded steep to me, but they've been going up and getting scarcer.

2. Cheap, accessible ammo. The 9x19 Luger/Parabellum is probably the most common round in the world, so I doubt I'll ever have trouble feeding the gun.

3. Easy convertibility. Changing the Norinco to a 7.62x25 (Tokarev round) would only require replacing the barrel and maybe the spring, and removing a spacer in the magazine well.

4. A vague sense of aesthetics, and a feeble collector's mentality. The Tokarev design was contemporaneous with some of the Mosin Nagants already filling up my safe, so I'd feel properly dressed with one on my belt while I'm whaling away with the rifles, even if the round is wrong/..

A couple of guys I work with recoiled in horror when I mentioned the Norinco to them, though. They pitched hot and heavy for getting a Makarov instead, without really giving me any good reasons why. Anyone have any reasonably well-informed opinions when it comes to comparing the two?

[ICEMAN 357]

I checked them out on Gunbroker and here:Marstar Canada: Norinco Tokarev Series Handguns

I really liked them, I have a couple of Norinco guns and they are excellent
quality. These Tokarevs obviously don't have the collector value but if you
like style you are getting a new gun with safety and in plentiful caliber. If I
bought one to shoot I would have to have those wrap-around grips myself.

[Teakwood]

I had a Norinco Tokarev in 9x19 years ago. POS, safety started flopping around after about 100 rounds and would interfere with firing at random. I sold it off for spare parts.

Personally, I would get the Makarov. It is simply a much better pistol.

If you must have a 9x19, get something other than the Chinese Tok.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by Teakwood

I had a Norinco Tokarev in 9x19 years ago. POS, safety started flopping around after about 100 rounds and would interfere with firing at random. I sold it off for spare parts.
Personally, I would get the Makarov. It is simply a much better pistol.
If you must have a 9x19, get something other than the Chinese Tok.

Sounds like you bought one imported in 1988, Teakwood. The safety was an afterthought tacked on to make them legal for the American market, and I wouldn't have trusted it anyway.

I believe this is the same gun, new in the box and unfired. Aside from the POS safety and the contoured grips, it's pretty much the same Tokarev (TT33) the Russians built, and that one had a reputation for ruggedness and reliability.

I see no reason for not ignoring the safety, or disabling it if necessary; it isn't an integral part of the design. Although the sort of problem you describe is usually just a weak spring anyway. I wouldn't be storing or carrying it with a round in the chamber anyway...

[Beer Forever]

I would get a CZ-82 over that any day. Aimsurplus.com has them on sale for $199 is excellent condition.

[toolman]

Troy, if you can, try holding one before you buy it. To me the grip angle is just wrong. I've wrestled with buying a Tok for years, I just can't get past the grip angle.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by toolman

Troy, if you can, try holding one before you buy it. To me the grip angle is just wrong. I've wrestled with buying a Tok for years, I just can't get past the grip angle.

Then I bought it. I'll post pics and all the information I can, ten days from now when I pick it up.

Apparently what I'm getting is a Norinco 213B. From what I've read on the internet, it's a close copy of a 'Tokagypt' 58, made by the Hungarians for the Egyptian Army, rejected by them and adopted by the Egyptian police instead.

It's 9mm Luger/Parabellum (9x19), has a thumb safety that works backwards, and has wraparound contoured grips with a thumb rest. When the safety is pushed forward, it uncovers the stamped numerals 1967, which may be the date of manufacture--I still have a lot to learn about these guns.

I think the contoured grips make all the difference in the world on the grip angle, toolman; in my right hand the gun points very naturally. If I stick the gun at arm's length and look at the sights, they're lined up almost perfectly with whatever I'm pointing at. Surprisingly, it points reasonably well for me left-handed too. But I'm betting the thumb ridge would dig a pretty big hole in my hand after a while, if I tried shooting it that way.

It looks like the seller wasn't kidding about the gun being new in the box, although the outside of that box is battered, worn and taped. The bluing looks to be 100%. It has an extra magazine, a cleaning rod and instruction booklet, but no holster. So I went on Ebay and ordered a Tokagypt holster for twelve bucks.

I don't see how I can lose for two hundred bucks; if I don't like it I'll buy another gun on down the line. Range report will be forthcoming, of course...

[toolman]

Cool! Glad it worked out for ya. I've never seen one with wrap-around grips.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by toolman

Cool! Glad it worked out for ya. I've never seen one with wrap-around grips.

http://www.marstar.ca/images/Handgun...agypt-9x19.jpg

The grips on it are very similar to mine, aside from not having the thumb rest.

A friend of mine who has contour grips on one of his toks told me to invest in a good pair of shooting gloves, because his are a little slippery. Of course his are also aftermarket, so we'll have to see.

[toolman]

Originally Posted by troy2000

http://www.marstar.ca/images/Handgun...agypt-9x19.jpg
The grips on it are very similar to mine, aside from not having the thumb rest.
A friend of mine who has contour grips on one of his toks told me to invest in a good pair of shooting gloves, because his are a little slippery. Of course his are also aftermarket, so we'll have to see.

That's no problem, see, I know this guy who'll build ya any type of grip you want! I, I mean he, could prob'ly even find some kind of authentic Chinese\Egyptian\Russian wood to make it purty! Let us know how it shoots-I'm curious.

[Dennis]

I removed the safety on my chicom tokerev the day I bought it (19 years ago) and never had a problem. the weird safety is a add on for importation.
the wraparound grips are cool.
I doubt you will be able to convert the caliber to 7.62x25 due to the ejection port.
On the 9mm toks they made the ejection port smaller.
the spacer in the mag well could be removed and original mags installed but I doubt it could eject the longer 7.62 cartriges
you could try it...
modifying the ejection port may be a possibility but then you are not haveing a easy conversion.
Reguardless, in 9mm the Tokarev is a fine pistol.
you have done well getting that.
Remember the half cock is the original safety when in half cock it locks the trigger and the slide and the hammer this the "safe carry" mode for this pistol

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by Dennis

I removed the safety on my chicom tokerev the day I bought it (19 years ago) and never had a problem. the weird safety is a add on for importation.
the wraparound grips are cool.
I doubt you will be able to convert the caliber to 7.62x25 due to the ejection port.
On the 9mm toks they made the ejection port smaller.
the spacer in the mag well could be removed and original mags installed but I doubt it could eject the longer 7.62 cartriges
you could try it...
modifying the ejection port may be a possibility but then you are not haveing a easy conversion.
Reguardless, in 9mm the Tokarev is a fine pistol.
you have done well getting that.
Remember the half cock is the original safety when in half cock it locks the trigger and the slide and the hammer this the "safe carry" mode for this pistol

I think you're right, Dennis. From the research I've done, converting from 7.62 to 9mm is a breeze, but going the other way can get interesting. I can't find where I read it at the moment and don't remember the details, but apparently there's something else they shortened in the hammer subassembly, to accommodate the 9mm round. The ejector, maybe? The guy said he replaced the "sub-frame" with a Russian one, and after that it worked fine; I assume he meant the subassembly.

I like the grips, and so does my younger son. But apparently they aren't made for people with thick, stubby hands and fingers. My nephew gets hammer-bit every time he tries to shoot it one-handed, and when my son's friend fired it he complained about the grip being "too big."

[rlau29054@aol.]

troy
I saw your question and couldn't help but give my read on it to you. I happened to buy one of the norinco tokerovs barrelled for the 9mm luger or parabellum round. My advice is: Don't!! First off, i'm not going to trash all of the Norinco products because i have an SKS and i love the quality of the workmanship in it. I have looked at Norinco 45 Auto's and they look to be of good quality also. The TT33 Tokerov is another matter entirely though!! This pistol was never developed originally with a safety. Because of the 1968 gun laws, Norinco put one on the gun. It's in my opinon more unsafe than safe, espcially if one is considering home protection with it!! the safety on my gun was crude and wasn't a "positive" type locking system. To me it was dangerous to say the least.
Your other comment was that you were considering the 9mm over the 7.62x19mm tokerov round. Again... Don't!!! I fired my pistol with standard 9mm ammo and noticed stress cracks along the barrel lug supports!! Navy Arms replaced the barrel assembly right away for me with no problems, but somehow i got the impression that i was trying to put a v-8 engine into a sub compact car, if you know what i mean. By all means: if you have purchased the Norico tokerov 9mm, be very careful of it's "safety" and inspect the barrel assembly after each firing and cleaning!!! better advice would be to sell it back to the place where you got it, eat the loss, and put more cash in to buying a good "nine". That is what i ended up doing and don't regret my decision for one minute. I put a few more bucks to what they paid me and picked up an FM Browing Hi-Power. A real gun!! Hope this helps. Bob

[rlau29054@aol.]

just my opinion but it is based upon owning the 9mm tokerov with the custom grips manufactuerd by Norinco. The Safety is a joke and it does work backwards and would appear to be more of a detriment rather than a safety factor in a defense situation. The 9mm in my experience is a disaster waiting to happen. I noticed stress cracks along the barrel lugs after firing only a hundred rounds thru it. Though the barrel was replaced, i never had confidence in it. It was the closes thing to a saturday night special in a military pistol i ever saw. I replaced it with a real "nine" a FN HiPower. bob

[Dennis]

this is an old thread that had been reborn. the satement "but somehow I got the impression that i was trying to put a v-8 engine into a sub compact car," is exactly wrong.
The 7.62x25 cartrige is MUCH more powerful than the 9mmParabellum by A LOT.
it is easy to convert a 7.62 tok to .38 super even (More Powerful)
Your experience with cracks on the barrel lug sound like a individoul situation to me.I have seen Many Many of these pistols over the years and they allways looked good to me. I understand that anything can go wrong. these are just machines. as a whole the T33 Tokerev pistol in 9mm or 7.62x25 are fine examples of east block handguns.
if you do not have confidence in your Tokerov and want to get rid of it, send me a PM

[Mastiff]

Originally Posted by Dennis

this is an old thread that had been reborn. the satement "but somehow I got the impression that i was trying to put a v-8 engine into a sub compact car," is exactly wrong.
The 7.62x25 cartrige is MUCH more powerful than the 9mmParabellum by A LOT.
it is easy to convert a 7.62 tok to .38 super even (More Powerful)
Your experience with cracks on the barrel lug sound like a individoul situation to me.I have seen Many Many of these pistols over the years and they allways looked good to me. I understand that anything can go wrong. these are just machines. as a whole the T33 Tokerev pistol in 9mm or 7.62x25 are fine examples of east block handguns.
if you do not have confidence in your Tokerov and want to get rid of it, send me a PM

I have had two of these since around 1992. One is a safe queen ( I was just holding on to it, it works fine). The other has been one of the best pistols I've ever owned. I have had no problems whatsoever. I can not praise the pistol enough. I don't use the stupid safety, I put it on half-cock the way Comrade Tokarev designed it.
I just purchased a Romanian Tok from AIM, my FFL should have it tomorrow or the next day.

[tina20043t]

Has anyone purchased any firearms from KeepShooting out of MD. If so, how did it go. Are they reputtable.

I am new to the boards, so I apologize if I should have posted this question elsewhere.