Accuracy vs firepower - Page 2

Coeloptera · 08-02-2007, 02:45 PM

Well, as others have said, situation absolutely matters. But I'm going to have to come down on the side of accuracy, with a reasonable dash of firepower thrown in.

I'm picking up a Taurus 608 in a few weeks and I wanted it because it's an 8-shot .357 Magnum. Yes, it's a wheelgun, but the capacty is closer to a large caliber semiauto (I mean, a Ruger P90 only has 8+1 at .45), but frankly, if I need more than 8 rounds from that in a HD or SD situation, then I'd assume a full speedloader would do...if 16 rounds of .357 can't get the job done, I'm in serious trouble...or I've wandered into a a mid-sized firefight for some reason.

To me, accuracy should also be bolstered by sufficient stopping power too. I may be able to put 3-5 rounds from a Ruger .22 into someone from clear across my home before he can reach me, but he may not even quite realize I've done it if he's on drugs, crazed with adrenaline, or what have you. I don't think anyone will shrug off a .357 Magnum round anywhere near center mass.

Don't neglect the intimidation value of several home invaders seeing one of theirs taken down by a single shot, either. Of course, the same has been said about the sound of someone racking a pump-action shotgun. So, YMMV.

That and since, as a civilian, I can't own a full automatic SMG or anything, and I'd rather not spray rounds all over my home, I may as well go for accuracy.

Since I don't ever anticipate being in a full-scale battle and needing to lay down cover fire, for my potential needs, I'll have to say accuracy with sufficient stopping power that I won't have to worry about spending more rounds on a target that's already been hit is the way to go.

- Coeloptera (now with avatar!)

Triggerjerk · 08-02-2007, 04:10 PM

Troy2000 wrapped it up very nicely.

Also, seeing gangs of bandits in action (Katrina, LA Riots) I feel better with more firepower than with less.

A-10 · 08-02-2007, 05:03 PM

Still, I think we can all agree with the now coined phrase "A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45."

Triggerjerk · 08-02-2007, 05:27 PM

Indeed we can. I was at the sandpit shooting and I hit every time with my .22. There was a young man there with a Springfield Armory XD-45. He could not hit anything. Not to pick on him, because he let me have a couple of shots and I didn't hit anything either!

billy · 08-02-2007, 06:01 PM

practice! i need to hurry up and get reloading in bulk for my 1911 .45

a pittarelli · 08-14-2007, 12:25 AM

id take stealth and accuracty over sheer firepower

A-10 · 08-14-2007, 12:31 AM

Right on, ninja kitty. Stealth though, I think is optional.

Retiredswine · 08-14-2007, 12:44 AM

I reckon that Buckshot is your friend,.........

A-10 · 08-14-2007, 09:11 AM

only when i'm close enough to smell whatever I'm shooting, otherwise, I'm more of a riflenan.

neophyte · 08-15-2007, 07:17 PM

Folks: I see two different 'arguments' taking place.
Factual difficulties:
1. Combat situation 50 on my side 50 oppose
2. Ground Situation
3. 24hr. period? Morning, mid-day, evening, night
4. each has it's positioning

I'll Pick One: Morning
1. Absolute firefight [they lay down fire as quickly as us.
2. Set-up. Both Sides: Sun coming up at my Back
3. Set sniper
4. lay down cover fire
5. sniper positioning
6. Take out 1 x 1
7. Maintain cover fire
8. Find Weakness and Capitalize

My opponent is doing the same thing in War

Guerrilla tactic : which most of you believe in
Works the best when you follow simple rules
"Dead man can't Hurt you"

See your situation and Capitalize, accurracy means little to nothing when you fail to recognize the complete situation.

By the way: I'd like to have all of you on my side.

Thanks,

Craig

By the opinion of most

bravo30 · 09-22-2007, 09:37 PM

the germans kicked alot of ass with there bolt action mausers so who knows ..... but then again they were supported by mg42's an so on.... if your in a group i would think accuracy would be better but if your alone i would take volume of fire !! ahhh screw you could on an on about this all day lol just try to have both !! humm then again in a group high volume fire would also be ideal .... ohhh god i give up lol

toolman · 09-22-2007, 10:50 PM

My thinking is, if you are alone, you only have a finite amount of ammo, making hits an absolute must. A round sprayed into the brush or into a tree is a round wasted. We all agree, you need to hit what you're shooting at. Personally, if I'd been in Vietnam, I'd rather have Carlos Hathcock beside me than a full machine gun\artillery crew.

ArkansasHunter · 09-22-2007, 11:17 PM

My thoughts are location. If your in a firefight you may not have a choice of where your going to be shooting from. So what would you like to have in your hands for a weapon ? I would want something that holds a lot of AMMO to shoot back at the bad guys and to lay down cover to try to escape or retreat this situation.
Now would a pump shotgun with an extended magazine be the best gun to have if your in a shallow ditch Hell No ! Would you want a low capacity 1911 when your fired appon by some one with an AK 47 I wouldn't.
Give me an AR-15 and I'll even the odds a very good bit ! If you know you'll be in these types situations you better be armed for it.
I agree with Samual

samuel · 09-24-2007, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toolman

My thinking is, if you are alone, you only have a finite amount of ammo, making hits an absolute must. A round sprayed into the brush or into a tree is a round wasted. We all agree, you need to hit what you're shooting at. Personally, if I'd been in Vietnam, I'd rather have Carlos Hathcock beside me than a full machine gun\artillery crew.

Since 15meters was long range and a machine gun works better at that range than a scoped bolt action rifle, I think that would be the way to go.If you are alone maybe a long burst will scare the indians into thinking you are a lot more than you are and they will keep their heads down or retreat so you can get the h*** out of there.If you stay you are dead either way. sam.

ezearln · 09-24-2007, 03:22 PM

At 15m a 12 gauge loaded with 0000 buck is just hunky dory, with an extended magazine and a couple easily constructed improvised flash bangs you can create a heck of a lot of confusion permitting a withdrawl. Fall back reload and assume a position with your main rifle. And I wouldn't eggzactly call a M1911A1 low capacity, in the hands of a skilled marksman it'll make you head for cover just as fast as any hi cap wunda gun.

samuel · 09-24-2007, 03:51 PM

ez.: Your just jealous that I have a 9mm hi cap and get a lot more shooting than you do. sam.

ArkansasHunter · 09-24-2007, 04:01 PM

I just had an idear Instead of flash bang rounds in the shot gun have a couple of the flame thrower rounds loaded with the 0000.

samuel · 09-24-2007, 05:03 PM

I think you throw the flashbang rounds and I never heard of 0000 buck but have tried 000 buck and it is highly effective at short range.The seals used #4 buck and slightly smashed their muzzles egg shape so it would spread sideways instead of up so much.It was effective.At least on brush.Later they got compensators for shotguns for the same purpose.They worked better. sam.

ezearln · 09-25-2007, 10:03 AM

Maybe I's jus showing my age I ain't seen 4 ought buckshot in years, so I reckon I'd just shift to #1 or 2 Buck, and I have a Hi-power clone just I prefer my M1911A1 and with one in the spout I got 9 doses of high speed lead posioning available for dispensing. And yes you do throw the FB's one to either side of their position (gives em pause wondering if they is more than jus you in the tree line).

Recon 173 · 04-05-2008, 02:16 AM

To me, what makes an American rifleman good is a combination of tactics, training, practice and proper use of firepower. All of these items come together to make a person effective. Without all of the items I've listed, a shooter is weak. Just giving a guy a decent rifle is not enough to make him victorious over an enemy. He has to know what he can and can NOT do with his rifle. A bolt action rifle can be more accurate than most semi-autos but not always. Look at Viet Nam. Over there both sides used bolt action rifles for sniping but the Army also came out with the M-21 or XM-21 sniper rifle which gave Army snipers a faster back-on-target time than a bolt action rifle would have done. Here we are about 40 years later and the M-14/M-21 series of rifles are back at it in another war gooning bad guys out to 1,000 meters. Because of this war, we had to re-think our tactics about snipers, designated marksmen and their gear to bring them into play again. So, we've changed our tactics and gear, again, to make our people effective in Iraq.

08-02-2007, 04:10 PM	#22
Triggerjerk Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 978	Troy2000 wrapped it up very nicely. Also, seeing gangs of bandits in action (Katrina, LA Riots) I feel better with more firepower than with less. __________________ We old dogs can learn new tricks. We just may not like performng them. TJ Last edited by Triggerjerk; 08-02-2007 at 04:38 PM.

08-02-2007, 05:27 PM	#24
Triggerjerk Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 978	Indeed we can. I was at the sandpit shooting and I hit every time with my .22. There was a young man there with a Springfield Armory XD-45. He could not hit anything. Not to pick on him, because he let me have a couple of shots and I didn't hit anything either! __________________ We old dogs can learn new tricks. We just may not like performng them. TJ

08-02-2007, 06:01 PM	#25
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 12,367 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	practice! i need to hurry up and get reloading in bulk for my 1911 .45 __________________

08-15-2007, 07:17 PM	#30
neophyte Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 3,651 Blog Entries: 2	Different Arguments Folks: I see two different 'arguments' taking place. Factual difficulties: 1. Combat situation 50 on my side 50 oppose 2. Ground Situation 3. 24hr. period? Morning, mid-day, evening, night 4. each has it's positioning I'll Pick One: Morning 1. Absolute firefight [they lay down fire as quickly as us. 2. Set-up. Both Sides: Sun coming up at my Back 3. Set sniper 4. lay down cover fire 5. sniper positioning 6. Take out 1 x 1 7. Maintain cover fire 8. Find Weakness and Capitalize My opponent is doing the same thing in War Guerrilla tactic : which most of you believe in Works the best when you follow simple rules "Dead man can't Hurt you" See your situation and Capitalize, accurracy means little to nothing when you fail to recognize the complete situation. By the way: I'd like to have all of you on my side. Thanks, Craig By the opinion of most

09-22-2007, 10:50 PM	#32
toolman Mr. Fixit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: abilene,tx Posts: 5,603 Blog Entries: 22	My thinking is, if you are alone, you only have a finite amount of ammo, making hits an absolute must. A round sprayed into the brush or into a tree is a round wasted. We all agree, you need to hit what you're shooting at. Personally, if I'd been in Vietnam, I'd rather have Carlos Hathcock beside me than a full machine gun\artillery crew. __________________ cosmoline is an aphrodisiac!

08-02-2007, 02:45 PM	#21
Coeloptera Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,916	Well, as others have said, situation absolutely matters. But I'm going to have to come down on the side of accuracy, with a reasonable dash of firepower thrown in. I'm picking up a Taurus 608 in a few weeks and I wanted it because it's an 8-shot .357 Magnum. Yes, it's a wheelgun, but the capacty is closer to a large caliber semiauto (I mean, a Ruger P90 only has 8+1 at .45), but frankly, if I need more than 8 rounds from that in a HD or SD situation, then I'd assume a full speedloader would do...if 16 rounds of .357 can't get the job done, I'm in serious trouble...or I've wandered into a a mid-sized firefight for some reason. To me, accuracy should also be bolstered by sufficient stopping power too. I may be able to put 3-5 rounds from a Ruger .22 into someone from clear across my home before he can reach me, but he may not even quite realize I've done it if he's on drugs, crazed with adrenaline, or what have you. I don't think anyone will shrug off a .357 Magnum round anywhere near center mass. Don't neglect the intimidation value of several home invaders seeing one of theirs taken down by a single shot, either. Of course, the same has been said about the sound of someone racking a pump-action shotgun. So, YMMV. That and since, as a civilian, I can't own a full automatic SMG or anything, and I'd rather not spray rounds all over my home, I may as well go for accuracy. Since I don't ever anticipate being in a full-scale battle and needing to lay down cover fire, for my potential needs, I'll have to say accuracy with sufficient stopping power that I won't have to worry about spending more rounds on a target that's already been hit is the way to go. - Coeloptera (now with avatar!)

08-02-2007, 05:03 PM	#23
A-10 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 735	Still, I think we can all agree with the now coined phrase "A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45."

08-14-2007, 12:25 AM	#26
a pittarelli Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: in a land far away Posts: 11	id take stealth and accuracty over sheer firepower

08-14-2007, 12:31 AM	#27
A-10 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 735	Right on, ninja kitty. Stealth though, I think is optional.

08-14-2007, 12:44 AM	#28
Retiredswine Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 13	I reckon that Buckshot is your friend,.........

08-14-2007, 09:11 AM	#29
A-10 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 735	only when i'm close enough to smell whatever I'm shooting, otherwise, I'm more of a riflenan.

09-22-2007, 09:37 PM	#31
bravo30 Banned Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: philly Posts: 69	the germans kicked alot of ass with there bolt action mausers so who knows ..... but then again they were supported by mg42's an so on.... if your in a group i would think accuracy would be better but if your alone i would take volume of fire !! ahhh screw you could on an on about this all day lol just try to have both !! humm then again in a group high volume fire would also be ideal .... ohhh god i give up lol

09-22-2007, 11:17 PM	#33
ArkansasHunter Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: South Arkansas Posts: 10,727	My thoughts are location. If your in a firefight you may not have a choice of where your going to be shooting from. So what would you like to have in your hands for a weapon ? I would want something that holds a lot of AMMO to shoot back at the bad guys and to lay down cover to try to escape or retreat this situation. Now would a pump shotgun with an extended magazine be the best gun to have if your in a shallow ditch Hell No ! Would you want a low capacity 1911 when your fired appon by some one with an AK 47 I wouldn't. Give me an AR-15 and I'll even the odds a very good bit ! If you know you'll be in these types situations you better be armed for it. I agree with Samual

09-24-2007, 03:22 PM	#35
ezearln Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 3,175	At 15m a 12 gauge loaded with 0000 buck is just hunky dory, with an extended magazine and a couple easily constructed improvised flash bangs you can create a heck of a lot of confusion permitting a withdrawl. Fall back reload and assume a position with your main rifle. And I wouldn't eggzactly call a M1911A1 low capacity, in the hands of a skilled marksman it'll make you head for cover just as fast as any hi cap wunda gun. __________________ "You can have my Freedom when I'm done with it!"

09-24-2007, 03:51 PM	#36
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,087	ez.: Your just jealous that I have a 9mm hi cap and get a lot more shooting than you do. sam.

09-24-2007, 04:01 PM	#37
ArkansasHunter Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: South Arkansas Posts: 10,727	I just had an idear Instead of flash bang rounds in the shot gun have a couple of the flame thrower rounds loaded with the 0000.

09-24-2007, 05:03 PM	#38
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,087	I think you throw the flashbang rounds and I never heard of 0000 buck but have tried 000 buck and it is highly effective at short range.The seals used #4 buck and slightly smashed their muzzles egg shape so it would spread sideways instead of up so much.It was effective.At least on brush.Later they got compensators for shotguns for the same purpose.They worked better. sam.

09-25-2007, 10:03 AM	#39
ezearln Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 3,175	Maybe I's jus showing my age I ain't seen 4 ought buckshot in years, so I reckon I'd just shift to #1 or 2 Buck, and I have a Hi-power clone just I prefer my M1911A1 and with one in the spout I got 9 doses of high speed lead posioning available for dispensing. And yes you do throw the FB's one to either side of their position (gives em pause wondering if they is more than jus you in the tree line). __________________ "You can have my Freedom when I'm done with it!"

04-05-2008, 02:16 AM	#40
Recon 173 Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 27	To me, what makes an American rifleman good is a combination of tactics, training, practice and proper use of firepower. All of these items come together to make a person effective. Without all of the items I've listed, a shooter is weak. Just giving a guy a decent rifle is not enough to make him victorious over an enemy. He has to know what he can and can NOT do with his rifle. A bolt action rifle can be more accurate than most semi-autos but not always. Look at Viet Nam. Over there both sides used bolt action rifles for sniping but the Army also came out with the M-21 or XM-21 sniper rifle which gave Army snipers a faster back-on-target time than a bolt action rifle would have done. Here we are about 40 years later and the M-14/M-21 series of rifles are back at it in another war gooning bad guys out to 1,000 meters. Because of this war, we had to re-think our tactics about snipers, designated marksmen and their gear to bring them into play again. So, we've changed our tactics and gear, again, to make our people effective in Iraq.