Shoot to Disarm vs. Shoot to Kill

TexasT · 10-05-2007, 10:01 PM

I have been pondering this for a long time. What I was always taught was shoot to disarm. Hearing some ppls views on the site got me thinking about which would be best if I was ever placed in a situation in which I needed to pull out my gun and shoot somebody. I know it's better when you're in a court of law to only have one side of the story - yours. But I don't want to live with the burden that I killed somebody intentionally. I'd like to know what you guys think. I think it's definitely better to discuss these kinds of things BEFORE something like this happens so I have an idea of what my actions would be.

I guess I'll poll this too.

Midas · 10-05-2007, 10:04 PM

Shoot to kill, that way there won't anybody to testify against you in court, when your life is in danger, you gotta throw courtesy out the window.

SPOCAHP ANAR · 10-05-2007, 10:18 PM

Shoot to eliminate the threat!

And that should be your answer when on the stand.

1)
You: "I just shot him in the leg because I didn't want to kill him."

Lawyer: "So he really wasn't that big a threat at all and you decided to use excessive force to maim him."

2)
You: "I aimed at his head and pulled the trigger; I shot to kill."

Lawyer: " So your some kind of Cowboy aren't you? You had decided to kill him the moment you saw him regardless of his intentions.

3)
You: "I shot to eliminate the threat."

Lawyer: "Did you intend to kill/maim him?"

You: "No, I shot until I felt he was no longer a threat."

Dallas · 10-05-2007, 10:33 PM

Aim center mass and put two rounds in him.

jashoffa · 10-05-2007, 10:34 PM

Good point Spocahp Anar, I was going to say something along the same lines. The fact of the matter is that most training teaches shoot center mass. That is the biggest target, that is likely to end in death so I checked shoot to kill on the post.

SPOCAHP ANAR · 10-05-2007, 10:42 PM

Yes they do but be careful of what you say and to whom.

SilentSoul · 10-05-2007, 10:47 PM

You shoot to stop the treat. And that is what you always say no matter what. If he dies he dies.

Big Dog · 10-06-2007, 04:30 AM

You use your gun only when your life or another's life is in mortal danger. If the situation is such that you need to shoot someone, you need to kill him. Period.
If you don't need to kill him, you don't need to shoot him.

I have NO use for "less than lethal" ammo either. The concept eludes me.

samuel · 10-06-2007, 06:10 AM

I just hope and pray I will never have to make that choice in civillian life. sam.

Chris · 10-06-2007, 06:15 AM

We all can hope we never have to make that choice. I recommend looking into training for using lethal force.

If my gun is drawn it will be fired to remove any threat. I will not draw it to scare someone.

Triggerjerk · 10-06-2007, 06:34 AM

And as my lawyer told me...YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT, SO REMAIN SILENT. Do not give a statement of any kind to the police until your lawyer is present. They know what questions to ask, and how to ask them. If you are in a shooting situation (and we're assuming the police are now involved) do not say anything except that you need to exercize your rights to remain silent and have counsel present during questioning. Then shut up until your lawyer is present.

I have a gun lawyer and know his contact info. You need to have a lawyer that is comfortable with gun law. Do not wait until you have defended yourself with a firearm to look for one.

billy · 10-06-2007, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPOCAHP ANAR

Shoot to eliminate the threat!

And that should be your answer when on the stand.

1)
You: "I just shot him in the leg because I didn't want to kill him."

Lawyer: "So he really wasn't that big a threat at all and you decided to use excessive force to maim him."

2)
You: "I aimed at his head and pulled the trigger; I shot to kill."

Lawyer: " So your some kind of Cowboy aren't you? You had decided to kill him the moment you saw him regardless of his intentions.

3)
You: "I shot to eliminate the threat."

Lawyer: "Did you intend to kill/maim him?"

You: "No, I shot until I felt he was no longer a threat."

you got it right buddy

TexasT · 10-06-2007, 08:33 AM

Very interesting thoughts. I guess CCW teachers have to say shoot to disarm to cover their behinds perhaps? What you all are saying makes a lot of sense.

billy · 10-06-2007, 08:45 AM

in other words kill the &*^%$#! and then render aid

Triggerjerk · 10-06-2007, 08:50 AM

I still say you shoot to stop the threat. "The person was a threat to me. I shot him to get him to stop. When I stopped him, I stopped shooting."

ezearln · 10-06-2007, 08:57 AM

Spocahp Anar makes the only valid point I've read so far you shoot in defense of life and limb to STOP the threat, thats it the end. Then request a lawyer before any in-depth questioning by law enforcement, of course your going to have to tell them the basics but don't volunteer any "Extras". One point made to me many years back in an Administration of Justice course was the suggestion of the instructor (an LAPD detective Capt) is if you have been involved in using force to stop an attacker when calling 911 the first thing you ask for is EMS and an ambulance for the attacker, then request police and why, making sure you tell them you are armed and if you are holding the subject at gunpoint or not.

neophyte · 10-06-2007, 10:33 AM

Be judged by 12 not carried by 6
NC Law: do not cover what you are not prepared to destroy. "covering" without shooting is a Felony.

samuel · 10-06-2007, 11:16 AM

I would much prefer to pry his weapon from his cold ,dead hand than have him pry my weapon from my cold,dead hand. sam.

Triggerjerk · 10-06-2007, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neophyte

Be judged by 12 not carried by 6
NC Law: do not cover what you are not prepared to destroy. "covering" without shooting is a Felony.

Something seems to be lost in the translation here. If covering without shooting is a felony, what happens if two punks with baseball bats approach and say, "We're gonna have your wallet!" You pull out your gun and say, "Oh no you're not!" They drop the bats and say, "NO NO! Only kidding! Don't shoot!"

At this point you have covered them. They surrendred. You still need to shoot 'em to keep from commiting a felony?

I think that what you are saying is that covering somebody is considered lethal force. If you are following the laws of engagemant in your state, that is probably not a felony.

I do not mean to nit pick, but words have meaning, and if covering somebody is a felony...you've got big problems in your state!

TexasT · 10-06-2007, 01:38 PM

I think this is a good discussion. It makes you think before acting. If there's anybody out there with differing opinions then don't be afraid to voice them!

View Poll Results: What would you do?
Shoot to disarm	2	1.87%
Shoot until the threat is eliminated	104	97.20%
Hadn't thought about it	1	0.93%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

10-05-2007, 10:01 PM	#1
TexasT Do you have my stapler? Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Everywhere you want to be. Posts: 4,206 Blog Entries: 16	Shoot to Disarm vs. Shoot to Kill I have been pondering this for a long time. What I was always taught was shoot to disarm. Hearing some ppls views on the site got me thinking about which would be best if I was ever placed in a situation in which I needed to pull out my gun and shoot somebody. I know it's better when you're in a court of law to only have one side of the story - yours. But I don't want to live with the burden that I killed somebody intentionally. I'd like to know what you guys think. I think it's definitely better to discuss these kinds of things BEFORE something like this happens so I have an idea of what my actions would be. I guess I'll poll this too. __________________ I'm just a little bit caught in the middle. Life is a maze. Love is a riddle.

10-05-2007, 10:04 PM	#2
Midas Troll B' Gone Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Springdale, Arkansas Posts: 3,800 Images: 2 Blog Entries: 6	Shoot to kill, that way there won't anybody to testify against you in court, when your life is in danger, you gotta throw courtesy out the window. __________________ "Recoil lasts for a second, gravity lasts forever"

10-05-2007, 10:18 PM	#3
SPOCAHP ANAR Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: SC-upstate Posts: 4,094 Images: 3 Blog Entries: 4	Shoot to eliminate the threat! And that should be your answer when on the stand. 1) You: "I just shot him in the leg because I didn't want to kill him." Lawyer: "So he really wasn't that big a threat at all and you decided to use excessive force to maim him." 2) You: "I aimed at his head and pulled the trigger; I shot to kill." Lawyer: " So your some kind of Cowboy aren't you? You had decided to kill him the moment you saw him regardless of his intentions. 3) You: "I shot to eliminate the threat." Lawyer: "Did you intend to kill/maim him?" You: "No, I shot until I felt he was no longer a threat." __________________ Spocrest Out!..........

10-05-2007, 10:33 PM	#4
Dallas PUKHA DAWG Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Virginia, just outside of Washington D.C. Posts: 3,595	Aim center mass and put two rounds in him. __________________ Those who forget History are condemed to repeat it.

10-05-2007, 10:34 PM	#5
jashoffa Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 409	Good point Spocahp Anar, I was going to say something along the same lines. The fact of the matter is that most training teaches shoot center mass. That is the biggest target, that is likely to end in death so I checked shoot to kill on the post. __________________ "I don't go shooting without my guns and they don't go shooting without me!" Member NRA

10-05-2007, 10:42 PM	#6
SPOCAHP ANAR Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: SC-upstate Posts: 4,094 Images: 3 Blog Entries: 4	Yes they do but be careful of what you say and to whom. __________________ Spocrest Out!..........

10-05-2007, 10:47 PM	#7
SilentSoul Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 603 Images: 1	You shoot to stop the treat. And that is what you always say no matter what. If he dies he dies.

10-06-2007, 04:30 AM	#8
Big Dog Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 10,214	You use your gun only when your life or another's life is in mortal danger. If the situation is such that you need to shoot someone, you need to kill him. Period. If you don't need to kill him, you don't need to shoot him. I have NO use for "less than lethal" ammo either. The concept eludes me. __________________ Moderator of: AR15/M16, M14/M1A, New/Beginning Shooters and Militaria/Collectables.

10-06-2007, 06:10 AM	#9
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,087	I just hope and pray I will never have to make that choice in civillian life. sam.

10-06-2007, 06:15 AM	#10
Chris HMFIC Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,834,167 Images: 19 Blog Entries: 18	We all can hope we never have to make that choice. I recommend looking into training for using lethal force. If my gun is drawn it will be fired to remove any threat. I will not draw it to scare someone. __________________ Rules \| Contributing Members No one has the right to deny my personal safety Please be descriptive in your thread titles!

10-06-2007, 06:34 AM	#11
Triggerjerk Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 978	And as my lawyer told me...YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT, SO REMAIN SILENT. Do not give a statement of any kind to the police until your lawyer is present. They know what questions to ask, and how to ask them. If you are in a shooting situation (and we're assuming the police are now involved) do not say anything except that you need to exercize your rights to remain silent and have counsel present during questioning. Then shut up until your lawyer is present. I have a gun lawyer and know his contact info. You need to have a lawyer that is comfortable with gun law. Do not wait until you have defended yourself with a firearm to look for one. __________________ We old dogs can learn new tricks. We just may not like performng them. TJ

10-06-2007, 08:33 AM	#13
TexasT Do you have my stapler? Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Everywhere you want to be. Posts: 4,206 Blog Entries: 16	Very interesting thoughts. I guess CCW teachers have to say shoot to disarm to cover their behinds perhaps? What you all are saying makes a lot of sense. __________________ I'm just a little bit caught in the middle. Life is a maze. Love is a riddle.

10-06-2007, 08:45 AM	#14
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 12,140 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	in other words kill the &*^%$#! and then render aid __________________

10-06-2007, 08:50 AM	#15
Triggerjerk Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 978	I still say you shoot to stop the threat. "The person was a threat to me. I shot him to get him to stop. When I stopped him, I stopped shooting." __________________ We old dogs can learn new tricks. We just may not like performng them. TJ

10-06-2007, 08:57 AM	#16
ezearln Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 3,175	Spocahp Anar makes the only valid point I've read so far you shoot in defense of life and limb to STOP the threat, thats it the end. Then request a lawyer before any in-depth questioning by law enforcement, of course your going to have to tell them the basics but don't volunteer any "Extras". One point made to me many years back in an Administration of Justice course was the suggestion of the instructor (an LAPD detective Capt) is if you have been involved in using force to stop an attacker when calling 911 the first thing you ask for is EMS and an ambulance for the attacker, then request police and why, making sure you tell them you are armed and if you are holding the subject at gunpoint or not. __________________ "You can have my Freedom when I'm done with it!"

10-06-2007, 10:33 AM	#17
neophyte Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 3,568 Blog Entries: 2	good post Be judged by 12 not carried by 6 NC Law: do not cover what you are not prepared to destroy. "covering" without shooting is a Felony. __________________ Craig By the standards of most

10-06-2007, 11:16 AM	#18
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,087	I would much prefer to pry his weapon from his cold ,dead hand than have him pry my weapon from my cold,dead hand. sam.

10-06-2007, 01:38 PM	#20
TexasT Do you have my stapler? Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Everywhere you want to be. Posts: 4,206 Blog Entries: 16	I think this is a good discussion. It makes you think before acting. If there's anybody out there with differing opinions then don't be afraid to voice them! __________________ I'm just a little bit caught in the middle. Life is a maze. Love is a riddle.