Help the Police?

JSosbe · 01-09-2008, 12:23 AM

Several people talk about what happens when law and order breaks down after a disaster. What if you could help prevent that from happening? What about showing up at your local police station with weapons and ammunition and volunteer to help. In small towns like my own, I think help might be accepted and appreciated.

Several reasons I have for this course of action. First, it seems to me to be the morally correct thing to do. Secondly, police are well armed and trained to use their weapons, making them useful allies to have. Also the police are the only ones with legitimate use of force and as such when things are returned to normal they will be more friendly to helpful citizens than gang leaders and brigands.

My question to all of you is would you aor would you not offer to help the authorities?

The Hillbilly · 01-09-2008, 12:28 AM

I would. My dad is a retired cop. He brought me up in an environment that every cop is your friend and I still believe that. Today, I know quite a few HPD and Harris County Deputies as well as some DPS officers. So I am definently good to go WTSHTF.

ArkansasHunter · 01-09-2008, 01:32 AM

Why not become a reservist feller and I do agree I wouldn't mind helping the Police any time.
My son is in law enforcement and admire what he does.

mos19k · 01-09-2008, 08:31 AM

Currently I work as a security manager for a local DOD facility and must be present no matter what the situation is. Prior to this I did volunteer during hurricane Andrew for traffic duty, since we had no power the intersections had to be manned. We directed traffic and kept it flowing, the folks were very appreciative and offered us water and food, it was a very rewarding experience.

On a side note, the police have been getting some very bad press lately. We have to remember that they are human and as with all humans the potential for doing the wrong thing is possible. The vast majority of them are honest and hard working individuals but that rarely makes the news. These guys and gals put their lives on the line every day so if you do get pulled over don't give them a hard time. Be cooperative and polite and make sure you tell them to stay safe.

damage855 · 01-09-2008, 08:52 AM

I work for the Sheriffs office so if something bad and smelly does ever hit the fan I know of a few people and places I will go to and "deputize" them into service.

Cyrano · 01-09-2008, 09:04 AM

This is my perception. Your mileage will vary. I agree, however, it's an aspect of the SHTF scenarios we haven't discussed before.

Generally, in this forum we talk about catastrophes where there is a TOTAL breakdown of order over the long term; a descent into anarchy. JSosbe is postulating a less severe disaster; perhaps something on the order of Hurricanes Katrina or Hugo, or a propane tank farm explosion. (Off topic a second: take note that the most powerful non-nuclear bombs in the US military inventory are fuel-air-explosive-gas, with propane as the explosive of choice. The biggest ones have blast potential measured in kilotons. They are about 25% as powerful as the bomb that destroyed Hiroshima.) In the scenario being discussed, I am inferring thousands dead or displaced from whatever cause, massive property damage, serious infrastructure damage and a disrupted food supply chain, but at least some portion of the government is still functioning, particularly law enforcement.

Now, in rural areas and in parts of the United States where there is/was a tradition of the citizenry being deputized to temporarily assist the forces of order against the criminal element, offering to assist the police would possibly be a good thing. Lots of places have outfits like fire police, unpaid volunteers who serve as traffic and crowd control at big fires so the police and the fire department can get on with the job of putting the fire out and searching for survivors or deciding it's a crime scene and securing it. Folk in smaller communities and down in the southeast in my experience are much more involved with their community and their neighbors than urbanites anywhere in the country are.

On the other hand, there have been too many reports about the police acting like jackbooted stormtroopers during the aftermath of Katrina - those who didn't cut and run, that is. It wasn't aired on the national news by the networks, but there were reports on the Web and in the smaller papers of police turning back folks who were on foot attempting to cross bridges out of the disaster area. Some were even fired upon by the "good guys." There were also reports of private individuals who attempted to bring essentials like food and water into the disaster area, who had their loads confiscated by the police for their own use! That isn't protecting and serving the public. It's applying the axiom, "In chaos, there is profit." And we all remember the police kicking doors in, arresting grandmothers who were trying to defend their homes, and by order of Mayor Ray Nagin confiscating the legally owned firearms of private citizens in direct defiance of the U.S. Constitution. (The weapons the NOPD confiscated, by the way, mostly have not been returned to their owners. the city has deliberately erected legal roadblocks to make their return to the citizens as difficult as possible. There is a lesson here.)

In suburban and urban areas, I would be very much disinclined to volunteer assistance to the police until and unless they put a call out for help. In Massacusetts in 1978 for instance, the Commonwealth was smashed by the worst blizzard to hit the region in fifty years. Society and law & order didn't break down, but they sure got bent a bit. Governor Michael Dukakis declared a state of martial law. He also ordered anybody who owned a four wheel drive vehicle to bring it to their town's police station, where it would be commandeered by the police for emergency assistance and patrol work. (In 1978, this mostly meant Jeeps, Chevy Blazers and a few utility pickup trucks used by folks into outdoor sports. 4WD back then was nowhere near as common as it is today.) The citizens did as he asked, but almost without exception told the police, "If you want my jeep/Blazer/truck, I come with it. I know how to handle four wheel drive. You don't, and there aren't any tow trucks moving that could pull you out when you lost it and went into the ditch. The town pays for the gas, you handle the radio, and I drive where you tell me, okay?" And mostly the police went along with the logic. The 4WD owners served as unpaid, undeputized auxiliaries to the police, and in that instance the police were happy to have their help.

I'm not sure large town (like 25,000 or more) cops would want volunteer deputies with their own weapons assisting them, even if they swore them in, handed them badges as temporary deputies and paired them up with actual cops. I'm quite sure the big city cops would not. New York City at least has some kind of an auxiliary police program with uniformed citizens assisting the NYPD in an emergency; but my understanding of how it works is that mostly these volunteer auxiliaries do not carry guns and don't go on patrol with the full time cops. I believe the idea is for the auxiliaries to take over non-enforcement roles and free up cops who have been through the police academy and on the job to get out into the streets. I presume a big city would issue arms to its police cadets and put them into the field paired with experienced street cops before they'd ask for deputies from the citizenry, because the police cadets would at least have some undersanding of the job.

Bottom line: out in the boonies, where the local forces of sweetness and light are likely to know you personally, I think volunteering as a deputy in the tradition of the Old West posses would work and even be a good thing. In the urban environment, no way. The Gestapo would be far more likely to arrest you or at least confiscate your guns than they would be to take your offer of assistance during the emergency.

troy2000 · 01-09-2008, 11:26 AM

I agree that it depends on where you are, and whether the local cops know you or not. As a general rule, in an urban area I wouldn't want to be seen in public being armed, much less go anywhere near a police or Sheriff's station. Good way to get shot.

.22guy · 01-09-2008, 06:42 PM

Showing up at the police station with guns and ammo would be asking to get them taken away, ie Katrina.

.22hustler · 01-09-2008, 07:07 PM

Try showing up at the police stations barracks, armed...You might as well have the coroner there waiting..But on the road, regardless of the situation and the weather, I would jeopardize my life to help an officer in trouble, especially our boys in gray

, the NYS Troopers...

billy · 01-09-2008, 07:14 PM

SUICIDE BY COP

you wanna help?
STAY HOME!
dont start running around with weapons

eddiedeverell · 01-10-2008, 12:41 PM

I would help the police out, why not?

jmp8927 · 01-10-2008, 12:47 PM

Around here....maybe. I live in a pretty rural area. However, I would think long and hard on it first.

billy · 01-10-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddiedeverell

I would help the police out, why not?

call em and ask if they need you to show up with weapons.
see what they say.

we have some members in law enforcement maybe they will chime in?

damage855 · 01-10-2008, 02:37 PM

The safest thing to do is "secure" your neighborhood but dont do it looking like rambo. have your old pickup with you long guns in it and have you sidearm on. and if the police or sheriff come by exsplain you are simply the "community watch" and offer any assistance to him such a cup of coffe or extra backup. again as some members have mentioned alot depends on where you live where i work and live something along this lines would not be a problem and probally encouraged. I would down play the weapons side as much a possible in any manner however you would just make you self a target you need to try and blend in.

dscrick · 01-10-2008, 02:52 PM

I have alot of respect for law Enforcement personnel and would render assistance to them any time it is required. In any civil unrest situation it would be easy for a solo officer to get outnumbered by the bad guys pretty quick, as law abiding citizens I think we have a duty to aid an officer in trouble, he/she would risk thier neck to help you!

Would I strap on my Tac gear and head down to the Sherrif's office and volunteer? NO. If they need help they'll ask, they know I have my CCW.

That said, if the law comes looking to take my weapons (New Orleans style) there will be a....Discussion.

eddiedeverell · 01-10-2008, 05:19 PM

call em and ask if they need you to show up with weapons.
see what they say.

Why would I call them, than show up with weapons? I dont know why anyone would do that?

BattleRifleG3 · 01-10-2008, 05:37 PM

Just handing them firearms and ammo won't help if the firearms aren't up to their standards or the ammo isn't something they can use.

I would consider proposing funding an LE reserve for guns and ammo. That way they would be able to choose what fits best with their training and current equipment. Of course this would have to be done before the fact.

billy · 01-10-2008, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddiedeverell

call em and ask if they need you to show up with weapons.
see what they say.

Why would I call them, than show up with weapons? I dont know why anyone would do that?

it makes as much sense as running around with guns wanting to "help"

Idaho Dave · 01-10-2008, 05:58 PM

In just my own oppinion, if it were a SHTF incident/disaster where there was going to be any kind of civil resolution and a restoration of govermental control the cops are just gonna take your guns and may jail you for brandishing weapons or contributing to public panic or something. Be realistic here, they let you HELP? Help what? and you shoot someone or someone shoots you? Even if it were justified then the department and the officers who thoght that you helping was a good idea are open to all kinds of litigation. Ask one of your leo friends if they think its a good idea. And if it is some SHTF thing that there will be no eventual goverment resolution to no freeking leo is gonna be at the local station trying to maintain order, they are gonna be out there protecting thier own. the only time I am joining forces with the local sherif, other then friday nights at the bar, is when aliens land, zombies rise, or we are invaded by another goverment. to me the morally correct thing to do is to keep out of thier way, let them do thier thing and unless they come looking for me, take care of my own.

billy · 01-10-2008, 06:03 PM

idaho dave,
BINGO!
everytime there has been something really bad happening .
the authorities say the same thing.
STAY CALM
REMAIN IN YOUR HOMES
is that clear enough?
or should i go running amok with a gun in my hands?

01-09-2008, 12:23 AM	#1
JSosbe Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: University of Kentucky Posts: 84	Help the Police? Several people talk about what happens when law and order breaks down after a disaster. What if you could help prevent that from happening? What about showing up at your local police station with weapons and ammunition and volunteer to help. In small towns like my own, I think help might be accepted and appreciated. Several reasons I have for this course of action. First, it seems to me to be the morally correct thing to do. Secondly, police are well armed and trained to use their weapons, making them useful allies to have. Also the police are the only ones with legitimate use of force and as such when things are returned to normal they will be more friendly to helpful citizens than gang leaders and brigands. My question to all of you is would you aor would you not offer to help the authorities?

01-09-2008, 08:52 AM	#5
damage855 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 951 Blog Entries: 1	I work for the Sheriffs office so if something bad and smelly does ever hit the fan I know of a few people and places I will go to and "deputize" them into service. __________________ If total goverment control will make us all safer, then why are prisons so dangerous?

01-09-2008, 09:04 AM	#6
Cyrano Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: New York Posts: 3,388	I think a whole lot would depend on where you are This is my perception. Your mileage will vary. I agree, however, it's an aspect of the SHTF scenarios we haven't discussed before. Generally, in this forum we talk about catastrophes where there is a TOTAL breakdown of order over the long term; a descent into anarchy. JSosbe is postulating a less severe disaster; perhaps something on the order of Hurricanes Katrina or Hugo, or a propane tank farm explosion. (Off topic a second: take note that the most powerful non-nuclear bombs in the US military inventory are fuel-air-explosive-gas, with propane as the explosive of choice. The biggest ones have blast potential measured in kilotons. They are about 25% as powerful as the bomb that destroyed Hiroshima.) In the scenario being discussed, I am inferring thousands dead or displaced from whatever cause, massive property damage, serious infrastructure damage and a disrupted food supply chain, but at least some portion of the government is still functioning, particularly law enforcement. Now, in rural areas and in parts of the United States where there is/was a tradition of the citizenry being deputized to temporarily assist the forces of order against the criminal element, offering to assist the police would possibly be a good thing. Lots of places have outfits like fire police, unpaid volunteers who serve as traffic and crowd control at big fires so the police and the fire department can get on with the job of putting the fire out and searching for survivors or deciding it's a crime scene and securing it. Folk in smaller communities and down in the southeast in my experience are much more involved with their community and their neighbors than urbanites anywhere in the country are. On the other hand, there have been too many reports about the police acting like jackbooted stormtroopers during the aftermath of Katrina - those who didn't cut and run, that is. It wasn't aired on the national news by the networks, but there were reports on the Web and in the smaller papers of police turning back folks who were on foot attempting to cross bridges out of the disaster area. Some were even fired upon by the "good guys." There were also reports of private individuals who attempted to bring essentials like food and water into the disaster area, who had their loads confiscated by the police for their own use! That isn't protecting and serving the public. It's applying the axiom, "In chaos, there is profit." And we all remember the police kicking doors in, arresting grandmothers who were trying to defend their homes, and by order of Mayor Ray Nagin confiscating the legally owned firearms of private citizens in direct defiance of the U.S. Constitution. (The weapons the NOPD confiscated, by the way, mostly have not been returned to their owners. the city has deliberately erected legal roadblocks to make their return to the citizens as difficult as possible. There is a lesson here.) In suburban and urban areas, I would be very much disinclined to volunteer assistance to the police until and unless they put a call out for help. In Massacusetts in 1978 for instance, the Commonwealth was smashed by the worst blizzard to hit the region in fifty years. Society and law & order didn't break down, but they sure got bent a bit. Governor Michael Dukakis declared a state of martial law. He also ordered anybody who owned a four wheel drive vehicle to bring it to their town's police station, where it would be commandeered by the police for emergency assistance and patrol work. (In 1978, this mostly meant Jeeps, Chevy Blazers and a few utility pickup trucks used by folks into outdoor sports. 4WD back then was nowhere near as common as it is today.) The citizens did as he asked, but almost without exception told the police, "If you want my jeep/Blazer/truck, I come with it. I know how to handle four wheel drive. You don't, and there aren't any tow trucks moving that could pull you out when you lost it and went into the ditch. The town pays for the gas, you handle the radio, and I drive where you tell me, okay?" And mostly the police went along with the logic. The 4WD owners served as unpaid, undeputized auxiliaries to the police, and in that instance the police were happy to have their help. I'm not sure large town (like 25,000 or more) cops would want volunteer deputies with their own weapons assisting them, even if they swore them in, handed them badges as temporary deputies and paired them up with actual cops. I'm quite sure the big city cops would not. New York City at least has some kind of an auxiliary police program with uniformed citizens assisting the NYPD in an emergency; but my understanding of how it works is that mostly these volunteer auxiliaries do not carry guns and don't go on patrol with the full time cops. I believe the idea is for the auxiliaries to take over non-enforcement roles and free up cops who have been through the police academy and on the job to get out into the streets. I presume a big city would issue arms to its police cadets and put them into the field paired with experienced street cops before they'd ask for deputies from the citizenry, because the police cadets would at least have some undersanding of the job. Bottom line: out in the boonies, where the local forces of sweetness and light are likely to know you personally, I think volunteering as a deputy in the tradition of the Old West posses would work and even be a good thing. In the urban environment, no way. The Gestapo would be far more likely to arrest you or at least confiscate your guns than they would be to take your offer of assistance during the emergency.

01-09-2008, 11:26 AM	#7
troy2000 Resident Armed Liberal Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 10,458 Images: 9	I agree that it depends on where you are, and whether the local cops know you or not. As a general rule, in an urban area I wouldn't want to be seen in public being armed, much less go anywhere near a police or Sheriff's station. Good way to get shot. __________________ I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said. WF Buckley, Jr

01-09-2008, 06:42 PM	#8
.22guy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 4,427	Showing up at the police station with guns and ammo would be asking to get them taken away, ie Katrina. __________________ My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban as soon as I take office.

01-09-2008, 12:28 AM	#2
The Hillbilly Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 40	I would. My dad is a retired cop. He brought me up in an environment that every cop is your friend and I still believe that. Today, I know quite a few HPD and Harris County Deputies as well as some DPS officers. So I am definently good to go WTSHTF.

01-09-2008, 01:32 AM	#3
ArkansasHunter Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: South Arkansas Posts: 11,267	Why not become a reservist feller and I do agree I wouldn't mind helping the Police any time. My son is in law enforcement and admire what he does.

01-09-2008, 08:31 AM	#4
mos19k Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Miami, Fl. Posts: 331	Currently I work as a security manager for a local DOD facility and must be present no matter what the situation is. Prior to this I did volunteer during hurricane Andrew for traffic duty, since we had no power the intersections had to be manned. We directed traffic and kept it flowing, the folks were very appreciative and offered us water and food, it was a very rewarding experience. On a side note, the police have been getting some very bad press lately. We have to remember that they are human and as with all humans the potential for doing the wrong thing is possible. The vast majority of them are honest and hard working individuals but that rarely makes the news. These guys and gals put their lives on the line every day so if you do get pulled over don't give them a hard time. Be cooperative and polite and make sure you tell them to stay safe.

01-09-2008, 07:07 PM	#9
.22hustler Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: New York Posts: 1,316	Try showing up at the police stations barracks, armed...You might as well have the coroner there waiting..But on the road, regardless of the situation and the weather, I would jeopardize my life to help an officer in trouble, especially our boys in gray, the NYS Troopers...

01-09-2008, 07:14 PM	#10
billy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 15,746 Images: 10 Blog Entries: 158	SUICIDE BY COP you wanna help? STAY HOME! dont start running around with weapons __________________ ignint mcnugget... the slug o love sez... remember kids two warning shots to the head for safety! Last edited by billy; 01-09-2008 at 07:15 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

01-10-2008, 12:41 PM	#11
eddiedeverell Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Aurora, CO. Posts: 243	I would help the police out, why not?

01-10-2008, 12:47 PM	#12
jmp8927 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Walterboro, SC Posts: 1,329 Images: 17	Around here....maybe. I live in a pretty rural area. However, I would think long and hard on it first. __________________ Doing the unexpected makes the unexpected the expected and thus the expected becomes the unexpected.

01-10-2008, 02:37 PM	#14
damage855 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 951 Blog Entries: 1	The safest thing to do is "secure" your neighborhood but dont do it looking like rambo. have your old pickup with you long guns in it and have you sidearm on. and if the police or sheriff come by exsplain you are simply the "community watch" and offer any assistance to him such a cup of coffe or extra backup. again as some members have mentioned alot depends on where you live where i work and live something along this lines would not be a problem and probally encouraged. I would down play the weapons side as much a possible in any manner however you would just make you self a target you need to try and blend in. __________________ If total goverment control will make us all safer, then why are prisons so dangerous?

01-10-2008, 02:52 PM	#15
dscrick Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 54	Absolutely I have alot of respect for law Enforcement personnel and would render assistance to them any time it is required. In any civil unrest situation it would be easy for a solo officer to get outnumbered by the bad guys pretty quick, as law abiding citizens I think we have a duty to aid an officer in trouble, he/she would risk thier neck to help you! Would I strap on my Tac gear and head down to the Sherrif's office and volunteer? NO. If they need help they'll ask, they know I have my CCW. That said, if the law comes looking to take my weapons (New Orleans style) there will be a....Discussion.

01-10-2008, 05:19 PM	#16
eddiedeverell Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Aurora, CO. Posts: 243	call em and ask if they need you to show up with weapons. see what they say. Why would I call them, than show up with weapons? I dont know why anyone would do that?

01-10-2008, 05:37 PM	#17
BattleRifleG3 Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western PA Posts: 11,609 Images: 13	Just handing them firearms and ammo won't help if the firearms aren't up to their standards or the ammo isn't something they can use. I would consider proposing funding an LE reserve for guns and ammo. That way they would be able to choose what fits best with their training and current equipment. Of course this would have to be done before the fact. __________________ Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf

01-10-2008, 05:58 PM	#19
Idaho Dave Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 544	In just my own oppinion, if it were a SHTF incident/disaster where there was going to be any kind of civil resolution and a restoration of govermental control the cops are just gonna take your guns and may jail you for brandishing weapons or contributing to public panic or something. Be realistic here, they let you HELP? Help what? and you shoot someone or someone shoots you? Even if it were justified then the department and the officers who thoght that you helping was a good idea are open to all kinds of litigation. Ask one of your leo friends if they think its a good idea. And if it is some SHTF thing that there will be no eventual goverment resolution to no freeking leo is gonna be at the local station trying to maintain order, they are gonna be out there protecting thier own. the only time I am joining forces with the local sherif, other then friday nights at the bar, is when aliens land, zombies rise, or we are invaded by another goverment. to me the morally correct thing to do is to keep out of thier way, let them do thier thing and unless they come looking for me, take care of my own. __________________ Living the life Last edited by Idaho Dave; 01-10-2008 at 06:24 PM.

01-10-2008, 06:03 PM	#20
billy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 15,746 Images: 10 Blog Entries: 158	idaho dave, BINGO! everytime there has been something really bad happening . the authorities say the same thing. STAY CALM REMAIN IN YOUR HOMES is that clear enough? or should i go running amok with a gun in my hands? __________________ ignint mcnugget... the slug o love sez... remember kids two warning shots to the head for safety!