Which Bullets Are Used?

[GRUNTER HUNTER]

What grain bullets do the marine snipers use in their .308's?

[mym1a]

probably 173 0r 175 grain jbt,Ball?

Originally Posted by mym1a

probably 173 0r 175 grain jbt???

I don't know if snipers are expected to adhere the Hague convention concerning hollow points?

[Mooseman684]

The M118 Round is 172 gr. Ball BT
The M852 Match round is 168 gr. Hp BT
Rich

[LarryO1970]

Military Open-tip Ammunition

The Myth of the "Geneva Convention" and other Gunstore Bullroar

One of the most lamentable traditions among members of the firearms community is the tendency to latch on to a piece of misinformation and endlessly circulate it as authoritative. Nowhere is this more prevalent then on the subject of "dum-dum hollow point bullets" and their being "banned by the Geneva Convention."

Sound familiar?

It's not accurate, of course, but few, if any, ever make the effort to find out the true facts for the simple reason that the foregoing has so often been casually repeated by "gun persons," that, in keeping with "Goebbels' Big Lie" theory, it has taken on the aura of a verity.

For openers, "dum-dum bullets," named for their arsenal of origin in a town near Calcutta, India, are soft-nosed projectiles, not hollow points1. And their deployment under the "Laws of War" is proscribed by a "Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body" adopted at the First Hague Peace Conference of (29 July) 1899 which states:

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

Although not a party to this accord, as a matter of policy the United States has acknowledged and respected its applicability in conventional combat operations since its adoption more than one century ago.

Where the U.S. did sign on, however, was with the Hague Convention IV of 1907, Article 23(e) of which Annex states:

"…it is especially forbidden -

To employ arms, projectiles, or material{sic} calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;"

In observance of this, for many years U.S. Military snipers went afield with M-118 ammo, a 7.62 X 51mm 173-grain solid-tipped boat tail round manufactured to much closer tolerances than M-80 "ball."

This practice began to change subsequent to a 23 September 1985 opinion issued by the Judge Advocate General2, authored by W. Hays Parks3, Chief of the JAG's International Law Branch, for the signature of Major Hugh R. Overholt, which stated:

"…expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State."

On 12 October 1990, another Memorandum of Law from Parks at the request of the Commander of the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) and coordinated with the Department of State, Army General Counsel, as well as the Offices of the Judge Advocates General of the Navy and Air Force, concluded that:

"The purpose of the 7.62mm "open-tip" MatchKing bullet is to provide maximum accuracy at very long range. … Bullet fragmentation is not a design characteristic, however, nor a purpose for use of the MatchKing by United States Army snipers. Wounds caused by MatchKing ammunition are similar to those caused by a fully jacketed military ball bullet, which is legal under the law of war, when compared at the same ranges and under the same conditions. (The Sierra #2200 BTHP) not only meets, but exceeds, the law of war obligations of the United States for use in combat."

Whether it is the overall excellence of the Sierra MatchKing, or its virtual endorsement within the upper echelons of the military, the #2200 boat tail hollow point was the round of preference for snipers and .30 caliber High Power competitors alike. Aside from Federal, Remington and Samson (IMI) both load it in their commercially available "match" rounds, while Winchester uses it in their Ranger line of law enforcement ammunition.

In 1993, another Parks-authored opinion cleared the way for the U.S. Special Operations Command to procure a Winchester 230-grain JHP ("Black Talon," yet!) for issue with its H&K-manufactured Mk 23 Mod 0 pistol.

Now, when the fat guy with the greasy beard who always seems to be leaning on the end of the counter at the local gun store, starts blathering about the Geneva Convention banning hollow point bullets, you can educate him with the right information.

"I believe you mean the Hague Peace Conferences of 1899 and 1907…."

…you can suggest, and then nail him beneath the bill of his CAT Diesel cap with the JAG's recent opinions that 168-grain (and 175-grain) BTHPs and 230-grain SXTs are in… and the Hague accords are o-u-t!

[Mooseman684]

Yep, My M852 ammo has " Not to be used against Personnel" stickers on the boxes...due to being Hollowpoints. That was later Rescinded !
Rich

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

Yep, My M852 ammo has " Not to be used against Personnel" stickers on the boxes...due to being Hollowpoints. That was later Rescinded !
Rich

Either was the .50 cal machine gun to be used against enemy personnel and so Old Chesty would say. "aim for their Buckles"

[mym1a]

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

Military Open-tip Ammunition

The Myth of the "Geneva Convention" and other Gunstore Bullroar

One of the most lamentable traditions among members of the firearms community is the tendency to latch on to a piece of misinformation and endlessly circulate it as authoritative. Nowhere is this more prevalent then on the subject of "dum-dum hollow point bullets" and their being "banned by the Geneva Convention."

Sound familiar?

It's not accurate, of course, but few, if any, ever make the effort to find out the true facts for the simple reason that the foregoing has so often been casually repeated by "gun persons," that, in keeping with "Goebbels' Big Lie" theory, it has taken on the aura of a verity.

For openers, "dum-dum bullets," named for their arsenal of origin in a town near Calcutta, India, are soft-nosed projectiles, not hollow points1. And their deployment under the "Laws of War" is proscribed by a "Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body" adopted at the First Hague Peace Conference of (29 July) 1899 which states:

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

Although not a party to this accord, as a matter of policy the United States has acknowledged and respected its applicability in conventional combat operations since its adoption more than one century ago.


Where the U.S. did sign on, however, was with the Hague Convention IV of 1907, Article 23(e) of which Annex states:

"…it is especially forbidden -

To employ arms, projectiles, or material{sic} calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;"

In observance of this, for many years U.S. Military snipers went afield with M-118 ammo, a 7.62 X 51mm 173-grain solid-tipped boat tail round manufactured to much closer tolerances than M-80 "ball."


This practice began to change subsequent to a 23 September 1985 opinion issued by the Judge Advocate General2, authored by W. Hays Parks3, Chief of the JAG's International Law Branch, for the signature of Major Hugh R. Overholt, which stated:

"…expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State."

On 12 October 1990, another Memorandum of Law from Parks at the request of the Commander of the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) and coordinated with the Department of State, Army General Counsel, as well as the Offices of the Judge Advocates General of the Navy and Air Force, concluded that:

"The purpose of the 7.62mm "open-tip" MatchKing bullet is to provide maximum accuracy at very long range. … Bullet fragmentation is not a design characteristic, however, nor a purpose for use of the MatchKing by United States Army snipers. Wounds caused by MatchKing ammunition are similar to those caused by a fully jacketed military ball bullet, which is legal under the law of war, when compared at the same ranges and under the same conditions. (The Sierra #2200 BTHP) not only meets, but exceeds, the law of war obligations of the United States for use in combat."

Whether it is the overall excellence of the Sierra MatchKing, or its virtual endorsement within the upper echelons of the military, the #2200 boat tail hollow point was the round of preference for snipers and .30 caliber High Power competitors alike. Aside from Federal, Remington and Samson (IMI) both load it in their commercially available "match" rounds, while Winchester uses it in their Ranger line of law enforcement ammunition.

In 1993, another Parks-authored opinion cleared the way for the U.S. Special Operations Command to procure a Winchester 230-grain JHP ("Black Talon," yet!) for issue with its H&K-manufactured Mk 23 Mod 0 pistol.


Now, when the fat guy with the greasy beard who always seems to be leaning on the end of the counter at the local gun store, starts blathering about the Geneva Convention banning hollow point bullets, you can educate him with the right information.

"I believe you mean the Hague Peace Conferences of 1899 and 1907…."

…you can suggest, and then nail him beneath the bill of his CAT Diesel cap with the JAG's recent opinions that 168-grain (and 175-grain) BTHPs and 230-grain SXTs are in… and the Hague accords are o-u-t!

cool learned something new

[jerry]

Take that info and combine it with LOAC and battlefield commanders go gray quickly.


Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC)

[LarryO1970]

Jerry ... commanders are always worried about their careers. Gray is a good term there. As a service member... I'd say to do what is necessary to preserve the lives of you and your team.

We already saw a Marine officer in Iraq almost court martialed over shooting an insurgent who was lying on a grenade. You do what is necessary. Of course... the media "forgot" to mention that detail.

Wingwiper... you are correct about what to shoot for. Hey, I was aiming at his helmet... but didn't realize it would penetrate, sorry. I was aiming at equipment, not the insurgent... my bad...

MyM1A, glad to hear I was able to provide some knowledge...

[mym1a]

I was told the sierra 168 grain bthp mk, reason for the hollow point with this round was for better consistancey with the weight of each bulllet? no intent to make this bullet any more lethal then regular ball ?????

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

Jerry ... commanders are always worried about their careers. Gray is a good term there. As a service member... I'd say to do what is necessary to preserve the lives of you and your team.

We already saw a Marine officer in Iraq almost court martialed over shooting an insurgent who was lying on a grenade. You do what is necessary. Of course... the media "forgot" to mention that detail.

Wingwiper... you are correct about what to shoot for. Hey, I was aiming at his helmet... but didn't realize it would penetrate, sorry. I was aiming at equipment, not the insurgent... my bad...

MyM1A, glad to hear I was able to provide some knowledge...

so LarryO the use of hollow points in combat is a gray area.? based on terrorists having no official link to any country?? and not affiliated with any standing army/military????
LIKe I mentioned I learned something new????

[LarryO1970]

"I was told the sierra 168 grain bthp mk, reason for the hollow point with this round was for better consistancey with the weight of each bulllet? no intent to make this bullet any more lethal then regular ball ?????"

... oh, I am sure there was some intent... but sold to the Hague as more accurate, thus more humane maybe? Any .30 caliber round that size and at that speed will mean a very bad day for the target.

mym1a, Terrorists are not protected by any Geneva Convention, Hague or the like... you knew that. Unfortunately, lawyers get into the fight and want to go after the warriors for using "Excessive force". Personally, I just don't see their argument.


I've seen many magazines full of hollowpoints in my days overseas...

[mym1a]

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

"I was told the sierra 168 grain bthp mk, reason for the hollow point with this round was for better consistancey with the weight of each bulllet? no intent to make this bullet any more lethal then regular ball ?????"

... oh, I am sure there was some intent... but sold to the Hague as more accurate, thus more humane maybe? Any .30 caliber round that size and at that speed will mean a very bad day for the target.

mym1a, Terrorists are not protected by any Geneva Convention, Hague or the like... you knew that. Unfortunately, lawyers get into the fight and want to go after the warriors for using "Excessive force". Personally, I just don't see their argument.


I've seen many magazines full of hollowpoints in my days overseas...

having no claim as a combat vet! my speculation maybe wrong but, I would think in that environment you do what you have to do, to survive???

[LarryO1970]

You are right... as long as the lawyers aren't watching. Do you recall the Marine officer who was almost Court Martialed over shooting an insurgent who was laying on a hand grenade? Of course, that wasn't shown on the TV... and they tried to hang him. Fortunately, other team members vindicated the officer and the lawyer had no case anymore, thus charges were dropped on excessive use of force.

As the saying goes, "War is Hell" ... keep a safe distance from your enemies, which include lawyers.

[Shootester]

But using an open tip would cause the bullet to expand taking out more vitals. So that would kill the enemy faster thus being more humane, right? So how is FMJ more humane?

[mym1a]

ball ammo aren't suppose to expand like regular hunting ammo> a lot of anti gun types are referring to ball as AP which we know is incorrect

[LarryO1970]

Originally Posted by Shootester

But using an open tip would cause the bullet to expand taking out more vitals. So that would kill the enemy faster thus being more humane, right? So how is FMJ more humane?

Shootester... actually, it was sarcasm. You could also look at it another way... a BTHP could be considered by some as more humane as it would kill the enemy faster and more efficiently than a FMJ ...

mym1a, "ball ammo aren't suppose to expand like regular hunting ammo> a lot of anti gun types are referring to ball as AP which we know is incorrect."

... all of us educated people know AP and ball are two completely different kinds of ammunition. The anti's have no clue, therefore grabbing at straws and trying to make connections where there simply aren't. If they are still confused... maybe they should look up the different designations by type of round... then they will see the difference, however, that would lose their argument so they'll
"play" stupid.

[mym1a]

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

Shootester... actually, it was sarcasm. You could also look at it another way... a BTHP could be considered by some as more humane as it would kill the enemy faster and more efficiently than a FMJ ...

mym1a, "ball ammo aren't suppose to expand like regular hunting ammo> a lot of anti gun types are referring to ball as AP which we know is incorrect."

... all of us educated people know AP and ball are two completely different kinds of ammunition. The anti's have no clue, therefore grabbing at straws and trying to make connections where there simply aren't. If they are still confused... maybe they should look up the different designations by type of round... then they will see the difference, however, that would lose their argument so they'll
"play" stupid.

I have been watching your responces your vey knowldgable enjoy chatiing with you

[LarryO1970]

mym1a, I am just happy to speak with others who enjoy guns and shooting as much as I do. As a 14 year Air Force guy... I've got some good knowledge on the military stuff... so if I can pass that info on, then great.

If I can ever help, I will.

[FragMaster]

Just joined, but same here...only I'm 17.