Overheard at the range

Gordo1 · 02-02-2008, 04:47 PM

This morning I was at the range and a CCW instructor with a female student took up the ajoining position. He positioned their target at the 7 yard line. He told her that 7 yards is the best marker. Quote "If you kill someone beyond 7 yards you will have a difficult time convincing the judge you were in an imminant life or death situation".
Any comments

billy · 02-02-2008, 04:54 PM

makes sense

JOEGUN94 · 02-02-2008, 04:59 PM

the instructor said the same thing, but within 7 yds they can take you with a knife before you can draw and fire, we tried that, scarey

mosineer · 02-02-2008, 05:21 PM

They would always be less than 7 yds... depending of course on whether there were witnesses...
*****************************************************
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

JSnover · 02-02-2008, 05:22 PM

Yeah, but you can't shoot them until after they present a threat no matter how close they are.

Bookman · 02-02-2008, 05:29 PM

I would agree with the instructor telling that to a student.

Midas · 02-02-2008, 05:29 PM

Yup, most instructors I've worked with say the same thing. If you think about it, it DOES make a lot of sense.

mym1a · 02-02-2008, 05:41 PM

so if a person is pointing a gun at you or has a knife beyond 7 yards they are no threat? I believe the 7 yard rule is based on the average distance in gun fights! am I also to believe that a person with a knife at that distance couldn't advance and deliver a lethal blow to some one before they could completely draw their side arm???does the average pistol/revolver owner train enough to be competent at that range? whats happens if you had to use lethal force and it was later discovered that you were standing 8 yards away or 22FT and didn't take the time to tape measure the distance prior to the engagement??? lol oh boy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Old Timer2 · 02-02-2008, 06:01 PM

Somewhere on one of these forums, I recently saw a report on the time it takes to come at you with a knife, versus the pistol draw time. They come up with the 21 foot rule. At the time I read it, it made perfect sense to me. Agreed, they have to be threatening you, and you feel your life is in imminent danger, for you to have an adequate defense.

mym1a · 02-02-2008, 06:08 PM

oldtimers right!!! adequate defense imminet danger I belive are the key words here!
take the reflexes of a young man in his prime wacked out on drugs coming at you with a knife, and heres this 50 + old guy/gal who seldom practice,(if ever) instinctive shooting?

Reddbecca · 02-02-2008, 06:08 PM

It wouldn't fly here. To qualify for a concealed carry permit you've gotta be able to shoot a target the size of a paper plate out to ten yards. Now why would they require you to hit something at 10 yards if you're supposed to be shooting defensively, and can't shoot beyond 7 yards?

Gordo1 · 02-02-2008, 06:15 PM

[quote=Reddbecca;413694]It wouldn't fly here. To qualify for a concealed carry permit you've gotta be able to shoot a target the size of a paper plate out to ten yards. Now why would they require you to hit something at 10 yards if you're supposed to be shooting defensively, and can't shoot beyond 7 yards?[/quote

When I qualified for my CCW there was no target distance qualification.

The_Patriot · 02-02-2008, 06:16 PM

The laws on home/property/personal defense vary greatly from state to state. Learn the laws (and case law) of YOUR state. Generally speaking, though, you must be able to demonstrate that you genuinely feared for life or limb. Distance is far less important, although it's hard to prove that condition if you shoot a guy 25 yards away in broad daylight and all he had was a broken beer bottle, for instance. Oh, and it's the District Attorney that'll be the first one that needs convincing. If it goes to trial, I'm less concerned about the judge and more concerned about the jury. The best advice in a shooting situation is to tell the police the absolute minimum and get a lawyer to represent you, fast. Let the facts do the speaking later--through the lawyer. Don't make all sorts of statements while you're still under a cloud of stress. Shut your mouth and deal with it later. Some of you had read me talk about motion detectors. Because of those, I hope to get enough time in the dead of the night to dial 911 and put the phone on the floor while I get into a defensive position. That recording will clearly prove that I knew my responsibilities and was protecting life that I feared for.

mym1a · 02-02-2008, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reddbecca

It wouldn't fly here. To qualify for a concealed carry permit you've gotta be able to shoot a target the size of a paper plate out to ten yards. Now why would they require you to hit something at 10 yards if you're supposed to be shooting defensively, and can't shoot beyond 7 yards?

I think its good to practice -3yards 10 yards! I believe at one time some PD/FBI agency had stats that showed the average gun fight was with in 21ft, also what oldtimer mentioned about some one being able to advance 21 ft at around the same time frame as it would take the average person to draw their side arm. the only point I was making, eluding that there is some legality issue beyond 21 ft? If you accidently shoot an innocent bystander,it doesn't matter if your 2 ft or 100 yards away!, your going down for that screw up!!!!!!!!

two-70 · 02-02-2008, 06:26 PM

the closer they are to you, closer they are to really hurting you, he/she is really got to be ready for such an incident, 7 yards is very close but you got to train right for it , i agree with the instructor

troy2000 · 02-02-2008, 08:35 PM

The instructor said she shouldn't shoot someone beyond that distance, not that she had to wait until her opponent was that close before she readied her weapon. You aren't required to stand there empty-handed until they cross the seven-yard line, then fast-draw.

TXplt · 02-02-2008, 11:45 PM

I don't think that's good advice for a student. As a general rule, If you ever need to respond with deadly force it is because you are facing an imminent threat to yourself or that of another. You need to do whatever necessary to defeat the threat. There can't really be a range or number associated with this. I'd not say that to someone because I'd not want them to erroneously put a number on a self-defense situation--I get the guy's point but I think that could easily be misconstrued. Judges don't really come into play at that point -- you are making the right decision to make that person not a threat any more.

A better way to say that is that almost all gunfights happen within this range. The reason why is that you are facing a self-defense situation, and it's possible that outside of this range the actual threat to you might come into question. You will always be accountable for the decision you make, and that person needs to be a threat to you. Not running away, not stealing your car, but a definite and credible threat. So, you well have trouble justifying a rangy shot. Always do what you need to do to stop the threat, but make sure it's a threat. Just my 2C

GlockMeister · 02-03-2008, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mosineer

They would always be less than 7 yds... depending of course on whether there were witnesses...
*****************************************************
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

Not necessarily. The amount of damage done can be quite different depending on the caliber and style of round used and depending on the distance.
The use of a shotgun for example comes to mind. The pattern of buckshot at 7yds. is quite different from that of 3yds. and 33yds.

Although I do completely understand the thought process in the reply. lol

My thought is this, if some career criminal attempts to say car jack you, the would be car-jacker says he has a gun, just has his hand in a pocket and it appears he is telling you the truth, but you proceed to put one in him and come to find there was no gun, what difference does it make if it is imminent threat or not? The way I look at it is, had the fool not tried to steel my car, they'd of not been shot to death to begin with. Or had the criminal not broken into my house, I wouldn't have shot him. I mean, why does it have to be imminent threat or life threatening for you or a family members life? Again, had they not broken into my home, I'd of had no reason to shoot them to start with.

I mean in the home scenario, it blows my mind to know that in some states, the one doing to breaking in, or family member of same, if you've killed them, can actually sue for damages. WTF is up with that?

Another scenario I heard while watching Personal Defense T.V. a while back was when Massad Ayoob was giving the advice of five things to do if you're ever in a gun fight. One being, you should be the first one to call 911/police, and to always have a charged cell phone or phone on you or in your possession. I guess if it's a cell phone you also better hope you can get or have a strong flipping signal or that they don't have one.?

Because if it is the criminal that calls first, he can be considered the victim in the report, because he is the one that called saying he's been shot. Then when the cops show up, they are looking for you, the one who shot the one who called saying they were shot, so you have now become the criminal.

I mean, when I heard that I thought, you may as well just let them break into your home and kill you or take your car. Because after they sue you for everything you have and turn your life to crap, you'd probably wish you were dead anyhow.

G-Meister

troy2000 · 02-03-2008, 02:50 AM

Don't despair, G-Meister. Just make sure your hands are in plain sight when they get there. Most cops aren't stupid; in the long run it'll be the guy with the most believable story, not the one who tells his first. And the average punk you nail while he's trying to carjack you or break into your house probably won't be cool and collected enough to call the cops with a coherent story anyway. Matter of fact, talking to them will probably be the very last thing on his mind, especially for as long as it takes him to get the bleeding stopped...by then, you should've been able to find a good signal.

samuel · 02-03-2008, 07:48 AM

So now I have to aquire two new self defence weapons,a tape measure and a cell phone.What I wonder about with the tape measure is,should I get a 25' and lock it on 21' or get a 20' and guess at the one foot? And the cell phone is a bigger problem because they have little bitty buttons and it takes me about two minutes to dial anything,so do they have special classes to teach me how to negotiate with the bad guy to give me at least a 1 3/4min. handicap in the race to dial 911.I want to do this self defence bit right and will start practicing with a cell phone and tape meisure right away. sam.

02-02-2008, 04:47 PM	#1
Gordo1 Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 28	Overheard at the range This morning I was at the range and a CCW instructor with a female student took up the ajoining position. He positioned their target at the 7 yard line. He told her that 7 yards is the best marker. Quote "If you kill someone beyond 7 yards you will have a difficult time convincing the judge you were in an imminant life or death situation". Any comments

02-02-2008, 04:54 PM	#2
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 12,203 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	makes sense __________________

02-02-2008, 04:59 PM	#3
JOEGUN94 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: MARSHALL Posts: 160	7 yd the instructor said the same thing, but within 7 yds they can take you with a knife before you can draw and fire, we tried that, scarey

02-02-2008, 05:29 PM	#7
Midas Troll B' Gone Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Springdale, Arkansas Posts: 3,813 Images: 2 Blog Entries: 6	Yup, most instructors I've worked with say the same thing. If you think about it, it DOES make a lot of sense. __________________ "Recoil lasts for a second, gravity lasts forever"

02-02-2008, 06:08 PM	#10
mym1a Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,313	oldtimers right!!! adequate defense imminet danger I belive are the key words here! take the reflexes of a young man in his prime wacked out on drugs coming at you with a knife, and heres this 50 + old guy/gal who seldom practice,(if ever) instinctive shooting? Last edited by mym1a; 02-02-2008 at 06:35 PM.

02-02-2008, 05:21 PM	#4
mosineer Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Southern Indiana Posts: 1,299	They would always be less than 7 yds... depending of course on whether there were witnesses... *************************************************** All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing**

02-02-2008, 05:22 PM	#5
JSnover Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 186	Yeah, but you can't shoot them until after they present a threat no matter how close they are.

02-02-2008, 05:29 PM	#6
Bookman Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: 10 paces south of Canada Posts: 738	I would agree with the instructor telling that to a student.

02-02-2008, 05:41 PM	#8
mym1a Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,313	so if a person is pointing a gun at you or has a knife beyond 7 yards they are no threat? I believe the 7 yard rule is based on the average distance in gun fights! am I also to believe that a person with a knife at that distance couldn't advance and deliver a lethal blow to some one before they could completely draw their side arm???does the average pistol/revolver owner train enough to be competent at that range? whats happens if you had to use lethal force and it was later discovered that you were standing 8 yards away or 22FT and didn't take the time to tape measure the distance prior to the engagement??? lol oh boy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

02-02-2008, 06:01 PM	#9
Old Timer2 Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Paradise Posts: 42	Somewhere on one of these forums, I recently saw a report on the time it takes to come at you with a knife, versus the pistol draw time. They come up with the 21 foot rule. At the time I read it, it made perfect sense to me. Agreed, they have to be threatening you, and you feel your life is in imminent danger, for you to have an adequate defense.

02-02-2008, 06:08 PM	#11
Reddbecca Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 102	It wouldn't fly here. To qualify for a concealed carry permit you've gotta be able to shoot a target the size of a paper plate out to ten yards. Now why would they require you to hit something at 10 yards if you're supposed to be shooting defensively, and can't shoot beyond 7 yards?

02-02-2008, 06:15 PM	#12
Gordo1 Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 28	Where did you take your CCW instruction [quote=Reddbecca;413694]It wouldn't fly here. To qualify for a concealed carry permit you've gotta be able to shoot a target the size of a paper plate out to ten yards. Now why would they require you to hit something at 10 yards if you're supposed to be shooting defensively, and can't shoot beyond 7 yards?[/quote When I qualified for my CCW there was no target distance qualification.

02-02-2008, 06:16 PM	#13
The_Patriot Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Middle of Ohio Posts: 371	The laws on home/property/personal defense vary greatly from state to state. Learn the laws (and case law) of YOUR state. Generally speaking, though, you must be able to demonstrate that you genuinely feared for life or limb. Distance is far less important, although it's hard to prove that condition if you shoot a guy 25 yards away in broad daylight and all he had was a broken beer bottle, for instance. Oh, and it's the District Attorney that'll be the first one that needs convincing. If it goes to trial, I'm less concerned about the judge and more concerned about the jury. The best advice in a shooting situation is to tell the police the absolute minimum and get a lawyer to represent you, fast. Let the facts do the speaking later--through the lawyer. Don't make all sorts of statements while you're still under a cloud of stress. Shut your mouth and deal with it later. Some of you had read me talk about motion detectors. Because of those, I hope to get enough time in the dead of the night to dial 911 and put the phone on the floor while I get into a defensive position. That recording will clearly prove that I knew my responsibilities and was protecting life that I feared for. Last edited by The_Patriot; 02-02-2008 at 07:24 PM.

02-02-2008, 06:26 PM	#15
two-70 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: ponca city, oklahoma Posts: 1,778	the closer they are to you, closer they are to really hurting you, he/she is really got to be ready for such an incident, 7 yards is very close but you got to train right for it , i agree with the instructor __________________ What Would Jesus Do ????? Just Ask Him.

02-02-2008, 08:35 PM	#16
troy2000 Resident Armed Liberal Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 9,474 Images: 9	The instructor said she shouldn't shoot someone beyond that distance, not that she had to wait until her opponent was that close before she readied her weapon. You aren't required to stand there empty-handed until they cross the seven-yard line, then fast-draw. __________________ If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -Anatole France Last edited by troy2000; 02-02-2008 at 08:38 PM.

02-02-2008, 11:45 PM	#17
TXplt Lost in the Ozone Again Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 2,838 Images: 4 Blog Entries: 2	I don't think that's good advice for a student. As a general rule, If you ever need to respond with deadly force it is because you are facing an imminent threat to yourself or that of another. You need to do whatever necessary to defeat the threat. There can't really be a range or number associated with this. I'd not say that to someone because I'd not want them to erroneously put a number on a self-defense situation--I get the guy's point but I think that could easily be misconstrued. Judges don't really come into play at that point -- you are making the right decision to make that person not a threat any more. A better way to say that is that almost all gunfights happen within this range. The reason why is that you are facing a self-defense situation, and it's possible that outside of this range the actual threat to you might come into question. You will always be accountable for the decision you make, and that person needs to be a threat to you. Not running away, not stealing your car, but a definite and credible threat. So, you well have trouble justifying a rangy shot. Always do what you need to do to stop the threat, but make sure it's a threat. Just my 2C

02-03-2008, 02:50 AM	#19
troy2000 Resident Armed Liberal Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 9,474 Images: 9	Don't despair, G-Meister. Just make sure your hands are in plain sight when they get there. Most cops aren't stupid; in the long run it'll be the guy with the most believable story, not the one who tells his first. And the average punk you nail while he's trying to carjack you or break into your house probably won't be cool and collected enough to call the cops with a coherent story anyway. Matter of fact, talking to them will probably be the very last thing on his mind, especially for as long as it takes him to get the bleeding stopped...by then, you should've been able to find a good signal. __________________ If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -Anatole France Last edited by troy2000; 02-03-2008 at 02:55 AM.

02-03-2008, 07:48 AM	#20
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,087	So now I have to aquire two new self defence weapons,a tape measure and a cell phone.What I wonder about with the tape measure is,should I get a 25' and lock it on 21' or get a 20' and guess at the one foot? And the cell phone is a bigger problem because they have little bitty buttons and it takes me about two minutes to dial anything,so do they have special classes to teach me how to negotiate with the bad guy to give me at least a 1 3/4min. handicap in the race to dial 911.I want to do this self defence bit right and will start practicing with a cell phone and tape meisure right away. sam.