newbie needs help!

[Noel]

Hi … I am new to this forum and new to the M1 Garand… Can anyone tell me what 4.2 Mil means? It was in the title when I bought it… I have only had it for a few weeks now… I took it to the range the day before yesterday and after I got it dialed in I was getting 5” groups at a 100 yards with muzzle measurement of about 3 and was wondering if this is sounds about right to you guys?

It is a 1952 Springfield that was completely restored to new by Springfield Armory (Geneseo)… I haven’t been much of a rifle man lately but this rifle may just take me away form my pistols for a while…. Any info on this rifle for a newbie would be cool… Thanks in advance guys… Noel

[Dookiebutt]

Welcome to the forum.

I would think 4.2 mil refers to the serial number range. For example, serial number 4235897 would be a 4.2 mil SA Garand.

A 5" group is not bad, but not great. There are many things you could do to tweak your rifle. What kind of ammo were you using?

A Garand advertised as "restored to new" but with an ME of 3 would not be acceptabe to me. Don't get me wrong, it will probably be a great shooter.

How do you know the muzzle is a 3?

[nathangdad]

This does happen sometimes with the Garand when you shoot 150 grain factory loads or lighter bullets.
Do not experiment with hot loads as you can bend
the metal operating rod in a Garand. If milder loads do not work I would contact the manufacturer as this is a little on the wide mark for a Garand.

[Noel]

Hi guys and thanks for getting back to me!

Originally Posted by Dookiebutt

Welcome to the forum.

Originally Posted by Dookiebutt

I would think 4.2 mil refers to the serial number range. For example, serial number 4235897 would be a 4.2 mil SA Garand.

I thought that might it, But I was in the title when he advertised it so I thought maybe that was some sort of a selling point...

A 5" group is not bad, but not great. There are many things you could do to tweak your rifle. What kind of ammo were you using?

Sportsman.com had these KA cans 192 ct to a can, for $59.00 so I bought 6 cans, probably not the best ammo but they said it was non-corrosive and was not hot to hurt the rifle.

A Garand advertised as "restored to new" but with an ME of 3 would not be acceptable to me. Don't get me wrong, it will probably be a great shooter.

How do you know the muzzle is a 3?

He advertised as a TE mussel with a 3... and honestly I have a OCD about mint guns with restored or not

Here’s the whole add for the Rifle

Springfield Armory -- M1 Garand 4.2 Mil Refinished w/New Stock

This is a refinished M1 Garand. The 4,272,xxx serial puts it some time in 1952. The barrel is marked SA 3 53 so it is most likely the original barrel. TE is about 3 and the muzzle shows quite a bit of bullet. The bore is bright and shiny with good rifling. All the metal parts were sent to Springfield Armory (Geneseo) and were refinished and parkerized to like-new condition. The stock is also new. All major parts are marked SA and are period correct. The safety is stamped MXB. All used firearms should be checked by a qualified gunsmith. This was part of a recent purchase and has not been test fired.

I might have to get a new barrel down the line!

[Orlando]

"completely restored to new by Springfield Armory " Probably just means they reparked the metal. 5' at 100yds isn';t to bad if you aren't used to shooting the Garand. Also are you shooting off a bench? If the bottom of the front handgaurd is setting on a bag its gonna throw things off. The bottom of the handgaurd is open and the Op Rod runs through it. If the Op Rod rubs on the bag it can be part of the problem Also what ammo are you using. A barrel with Muzzle Wear of 3 is not a canidate for a rebarrel if the rest of the bore is OK. Remember these are not bench rest target rifles, they were meant to hit a mansized target

[Noel]

Originally Posted by Orlando

"completely restored to new by Springfield Armory " Probably just means they reparked the metal. 5' at 100yds isn';t to bad if you aren't used to shooting the Garand. Also are you shooting off a bench? If the bottom of the front handgaurd is setting on a bag its gonna throw things off. The bottom of the handgaurd is open and the Op Rod runs through it. If the Op Rod rubs on the bag it can be part of the problem Also what ammo are you using. A barrel with Muzzle Wear of 3 is not a canidate for a rebarrel if the rest of the bore is OK. Remember these are not bench rest target rifles, they were meant to hit a mansized target

Yes! I was shooting off a bench, but holding the front up with my left hand on the handguard... I pretty sure I could do better with better ammo... This was the cheapest stuff could find... KA 192 a can at sportsman.com... for $59.00 a can... Came with clips and bandoleer... I'll try to find some better ammo to replace it as I go through it...

[Ben Hartley]

Hi, Noel,

Welcome to the wonderful and occasionally wacky world of the M1 Garand! You wrote:

Originally Posted by Noel

... This was the cheapest stuff could find... KA 192 a can at sportsman.com... for $59.00 a can... Came with clips and bandoleer... I'll try to find some better ammo to replace it as I go through it...

Now, I don't want to panic you, but the "KA" indicates Korean surplus ammo. Nothing wrong with that, but the general rule of thumb is that "KA" headstamps indicate corrosive ammo, so be very, very, very sure to clean the bore, gas cylinder, operating rod, bolt face, and anywhere else that hot gas can reach.

Hot soapy water is the classic treatment; some guys swear that "Windex" works. I can't swear to that one, as I've not tried it.

The Greek surplus "HXP" M2 surplus is noncorrosive, and available direct from the CMP at

CMP Home

or at a somewhat greater price from

Orion 7 Enterprises Inc.

Tony Pucci at Orion 7 is good people and will treat you right.

Hope this helps.

Ben Hartley

[two-70]

welcome to the site, enjoy yourself here

[Orlando]

Ben,
How do you figure ammo is cheaper from Orion 7 ? They want $60.00 for 192rds and $145.00 for 500 rds Cmp sells the exact same thing for $50.00 for 192rds and 480 rds for $110.00
I do like Orion 7 and have purchased springs from them. They are a good company but don't have the best price on ammo.

Ben , I reread your post. Sorry I misunderstood that you were saying Orion7 was higher.

[Noel]

Thanks for the info and the welcome guys… That’s what I thought about the KA too Ben, but some guy somewhere else, sent use to a site were it explained all the codes, and KA was an America made code… after I bought my first two cans I called sportsman and they said it was non-corrosive so I bought 4 more cans… I must say I have to believe them because after I went to the range and got home I had to watch the grandkids and didn’t get back to clean it for two days… I was expecting a nightmare of a job, but the bore wasn’t that bad after 48 rounds through it; and what was there came right out… I then got down on my knees and thanked god… Joke Joke…

[Orlando]

Nole, have you actually looked at the headstamp on the ammo? Do me a favor and take a look

[Noel]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Nole, have you actually looked at the headstamp on the ammo? Do me a favor and take a look

Hi Orlando… It has a HXP on the top and an 80 on the bottom… Here is the site that is selling them…
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=213903

[Ben Hartley]

Hi again, Noel...

OK, your source might very well be correct,and this reference may be out of date, but it's what I've got. Go to

Headstamp Codes on Small Arms Ammunition

...and click on "K" at the top. Um... er... don't see any US-loaded ammo in the listing, 'cept "KS" and "KTW," which aren't "KA" by any stretch.

I'd still recommend a hot water (or Windex) cleaning. Sure, the M1 Garand was designed for corrosive ammo -- all they had in the early 30's after all -- but there's no point in taking chances! (The Greek stuff -- and Orlando quoted the prices accurately -- is non-corrosive, and probably the best deal around, all things considered.)

In passing, I don't own a piece of Tony's business; I steer people that way if they either have not, can not, or don't want to qualify to order from the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program.

Different subject: you quoted the advertisement from which you purchased the rifle, and it stated "a TE of 3;" you've written it's "an ME of 3." Well, "TE" stands for throat erosion, or the heat/gas-caused wearing away of the bore immediately in front of the chamber. Since there have been brand-spanny-new barrels with a TE of just under 2, you've not much to worry about. "ME," on the other hand -- and properly it's "MW," for muzzle wear -- doesn't appear too bad from the description. The ad states "the muzzle shows quite a bit of bullet." That's using a field-expedient means of measuring the muzzle wear: a bullet is placed into the muzzle "backwards" as it were. "Quite a bit of bullet" indicates that there hasn't been a drastic amount of wear to the muzzle. If the edges of the rifling lands are nice and sharp, there are no scratches in the bore near the muzzle, and no serious nicks/dents on the barrel crown, you're in good shape.

I'd suggest you do a good bit more firing to determine just how well your M1 shoots. Remember that the M1 is a service rifle, not a target rifle; as I recall, the Ordnance standard for acceptance was eight rounds into a 4" circle. You're not too far off that.

HTH

Ben Hartley

[Noel]

Hi guys… I sent a reply but it didn’t go through Orlando… The headstamp says HXP on one side and 80 on the other, which is Greek Powder & Cartridge Company, Athens, Greece according to the site Ben pointed out… but sportsman site http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=213903 states 1970s production, "KA" headstamped. Brass-cased, Boxer-primed, reloadable, 150-grain, full metal jacket. 8 rds. per stripper clip, 48 rds. per bandolier. Approx. 192 rds. per .30 caliber can; 4 bandoliers per can. Muzzle Velocity: 2,910 F.P.S. Muzzle Energy: 2,829 ft.-lbs.
I noticed they raised the price $10.00 a can…

You really think I need to run some hot water and soap through it Ben…wouldn’t be obvious by now? I have a real problem putting water on metal… how soon would the corrosion show up?

[Orlando]

Just what I thought. You have Greek ammo not Korean. Someoen else said they ordered ammo from Sportsmans guide and it was the same ammo that CMP sells. Well you cant blmae you shooting on the ammo anymore Ha. HXP is Non -corrosive!

[billy]

Originally Posted by Noel

Hi guys… I sent a reply but it didn’t go through Orlando… The headstamp says HXP on one side and 80 on the other, which is Greek Powder & Cartridge Company, Athens, Greece according to the site Ben pointed out… but sportsman site http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=213903 states 1970s production, "KA" headstamped. Brass-cased, Boxer-primed, reloadable, 150-grain, full metal jacket. 8 rds. per stripper clip, 48 rds. per bandolier. Approx. 192 rds. per .30 caliber can; 4 bandoliers per can. Muzzle Velocity: 2,910 F.P.S. Muzzle Energy: 2,829 ft.-lbs.
I noticed they raised the price $10.00 a can…

You really think I need to run some hot water and soap through it Ben…wouldn’t be obvious by now? I have a real problem putting water on metal… how soon would the corrosion show up?

when you use hot water it heats the metal which dries on it's own.
armies have been doing it for generations.

the british issued funnels just for that purpose.

[wunhunglo]

Rumour has it that urinating down the barrel worked pretty good. But, of course, it didn't smell too nice afterwards.

[Ben Hartley]

Hi Noel,

You asked:

Originally Posted by Noel

You really think I need to run some hot water and soap through it Ben…wouldn’t be obvious by now? I have a real problem putting water on metal… how soon would the corrosion show up?

I answer: nope for "need run some hot water..." as you are, in fact, shooting noncorrosive ammo.

How soon will damaging corrosion show up? Varies with humidity, mostly. The combustion products from the primer pick up water vapor from the air: the higher the humidity, the more water and the quicker "rust" shows up.

The major problem with the HXP will be copper fouling. As a traditionalist, I clean that our with Hoppe's #9, and put a light coat of oil in the bore afterwards.

I'd still suggest that you do a good bit more shooting to get that group size down. Um... is there anyone local to you who shoots the M1? Might be worth trying to hook up with a more experienced shooter.

Ben Hartley

[Noel]

Thanks for the info Ben... The Range master where I was shooting has one with a match barrel... I'll pick his brain... Thanks again guys... Noel

[AJ100]

Did I miss somthing here? Everybody is telling this guy that 3 on the MW isn't too bad. Granted. Read the add

Springfield Armory -- M1 Garand 4.2 Mil Refinished w/New Stock
This is a refinished M1 Garand. The 4,272,xxx serial puts it some time in 1952. The barrel is marked SA 3 53 so it is most likely the original barrel. TE is about 3 and the muzzle shows quite a bit of bullet. The bore is bright and shiny with good rifling.


Looks to me like the THROAT EROSION is a 3. We don't know what the MW is. How much is "quite a bit of bullet"? That could be why the 5" groups. Probably not, just a new guy with a rifle but I had to re-read the thing four times to make sure I wasn't missing something all you guys that were talking about. MW of 3? Where did that come from?
Good Luck with your rifle. Go to "battle rifles" on the web. There is a sticky on tightening up that rifle and your groups.
AJ