Right or Wrong

[MEXBARBARIAN]

Are you for or against waterboarding and why?

[nathangdad]

I am against waterboarding in the sense that costs America the high ground on questions of morality in foreign policy (especially military foreign policy).

The backlash is tremendous and can be used by other nations as a justification for not cooperating with America (even if they do the same or worse - it's international politics).

A great unanswered question yet needed fact centers on just how much useful information we have obtained from waterboarding? Is it justified
at its basic level on practical grounds?

From the facts at hand I do not know of any gain from waterboarding that offsets the negativity generated by this practice.

Windwalker has brought up the "800 pound gorilla in the closet" question we cannot ignore.
As per the constitution of our nation we are not in a state of declared war. The War on Terror remains vague on legal definition. Just what is it and what should we do or not do under the guise of warring on terror? How do we define the enemy and to what degree should we go to protect our nation? These are issues eroding the Bush administration foreign policy on a continuing basis.

I agree with LarryO1970 other nations do considerably worse. If Russia were warring on terror a quick trip to the Lubyanka would have their enemies producing reams of information.

[LarryO1970]

... it's probably much more humane than what foreign governments do. This is a loaded question where no answer is correct...

ALL countries do what is needed to ensure their safety and survival. This is not to say it is right or wrong, just necessary.

I'm sure if we offered said bad guy a college education and a Lexus they might come clean, but do you want to fork out the money for that?

[MEXBARBARIAN]

Im all for it I think there are a lot worse things we could be doing to detainees I think it is necessary and it saves lives I agree im sure there are a lot of other countries with a lot more grusome means for extracting information than simulating drowning thats just me though and i really just wanted to see what other ppl thought

[LarryO1970]

I am certain you will get many different responses and honestly, there are arguments from both sides of this.

Like we've both said, other countries do far worse to get information from people.

Personally... and probably on record now, I am for it.

[wunhunglo]

Sorry, but I believe torture can never be condoned. Information gained under torture is always going to be suspect and the victim will admit almost anything.

[Windwalker]

This is a tough one. First I would want a Declared War, for in a war if it can save one soldier's life even though it kills thousands of the enemy it should be done. Since I do believe this statement I guess I would have to say that I would be for waterboarding and I would not try to hide behind the words, "its not torture" because it is.

[blaster]

I say give them real tourture like the ironsausage or the giant fire puffer, that makes water boarding look like fun

[wunhunglo]

Once you start, where do you stop? In declared warfare maybe OK?? In urban warware, against criminals, drug dealers etc. OK?? Against speeding motorists OK???

In what we know as the "Civilised world" it is considered inappropriate & illegal and rightly so!

Every military man knows that he does not have to obey an "Illegal order or command" and if he does, he will be treated as a criminal and tried for his actions.

I say again Torture can never be condoned!

[TheWall]

Don't give our enemies an excuse to do worse to our people that are captured.

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by wunhunglo

Sorry, but I believe torture can never be condoned. Information gained under torture is always going to be suspect and the victim will admit almost anything.

What wunhunglo says. Unless you are simply being a sadistic bastard just because you can be and because you get your rocks off on the pain of others, any information gained by torturing a prisoner is unreliable at best. As the object of the exercise is to obtain reliable intelligence for operations, usually in the short term, this is counterproductive.

The best interrogator the Nazis had did not use torture at all. He simply treated the POWs he interrogated decently and got them to talk man to man with him after he gained a measure of their trust. He got more reliable information and in a shorter time than did his contemporaries who used force.

This hypothesis is reinforced by the actions of the North Koreans and the North Vietnamese during the Pueblo Incident and the Vietnam War. They tortured their prisoners, seeking information and admissions of guilt. The interrogators got information, all right; wrong or out of date information. They also got played by clever Americans, who did things like having their pictures taken with "the Hawaiian good luck sign" (also known as flipping the bird) and asking after the health of their uncles Donald Ducque and Elmer Fudd; and the POW whose name eludes me who, when presented to the world press at a press conference, mouthed all the correct Communist slogans while his eyelids continuously blinked "T-O-R-T-U-R-E" for those with eyes to see when the films were reviewed.

Perhaps you might get better results with the so-called truth drugs, which actually just remove mental inhibitions temporarily, like a good drunk does. But the only thing I've heard of that works consistently is the sensory deprivation tank, and that does not work quickly. KGB data indicates it took between 72 and 96 hours to break a subject, which is not fast enough to obtain usable battlefield information. It's okay for gathering detailed, long term information but it's worthless for getting the kind of information combat commanders need for planning raids. It's a technique you want to use on field-grade and general officers to learn long term capabilities and intentions, not for getting unit strengths and locations in an operational area or finding out the location of a specific enemy leader in time to capture or kill him.

The bottom line is, quite apart from the ethical and moral issues, torture is not an effective intelligence tool. Therefore, using it makes no sense even if the other side uses it for psychological reasons. Just because they behave like savages is no reason for us to do so.

[gregkilo]

waterboarding may be "torture" as defined by some people, but is no more physically harmful than sleep deprivation and even less harmful than many other forms of interrogation, As far as crossing any moral lines, look at how many lives the information obtained saves (and it definately has). It is more of a psychologically effective technique, as it install fear, not physical harm, I condone it in its current use. Declared war or not, should not be a consideration. Its better than snipping off fingerjoints, beating info out of detainees, etc., is it barbaric? Not as much as flying commercial jetliners into public buildings, and walking bomb wielding teenagers and children into crowds of innocents. Come on people, surely you havent forgotten the atrocities that have been commited against us, declared war or not. This is just my personal opinion, and I alone am responsible for what I say, no one else. Read in to it what you want, and take it the way you want, because you have the " right and privelege" to do so. HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

[jimkim]

Im going to regret this...Our enemies dont need an excuse to torture us. Torture is perfectly acceptable to most of them. (I said MOST not ALL) That said I am against torture, however I would use waterboarding under certain circumstances. I know I know Im a rightwing nut but given the choice between Ahmed and school children Ill take the children. Life is hardly ever cut and dry... Also unless Im mistaken water boarding is where "the Line " is drawn. If you really believe its torture then get YOUR Rep. to actually ban its use and declare it illegal rather than point fingers and b*tch about it. The house and senate can easily solve this problem. They could even do the vote at midnight or two in the morning like they do when they give themself a raise. Im so tired of politicians . My statements are in no way a personal attack on ANY of you just what I believe.

[SwedeSteve]

It is wrong. It is immoral. It is not what we represent!

[ArkansasHunter]

Have they ever tried tickling feet ?

[gregkilo]

Who really started complaing about our methods of interrogation anyhow? We didnt invent tortue to obtain information, we learned it the hard way, from some of the very sources of condemnation who are belittling us about it today. You dont have to physically harm someone to make them talk, thats the reason that other methods like this came about. Im gonna stick my neck way out here, as if I hadnt already, and say this, if you do it yourself, you should have to endure it yourself. Some of you know where this is headed and for that reason I wont go any farther. The way we train some of our personnel provides for this.

[Father Time]

Doing things right is frustrating and slow, but right is right. We used to be the good guys, but now we have adopted their ways, (torture, kidnapping and transportation to secret prisons in shady foreign countries,) and thrown human dignity and the Bill of Rights in the toilet. Torture is not right.

[redhed]

I think it is naive to believe that this sort of interrogation hasn't been done all along by all sides and is just now being aired in public.

Torture is wrong, human suffering is wrong in any shape or form, but I am afraid that no matter what laws are passed or doctrines laid down, it is going to go on whether we like it or not. It'll just go on behind locked doors, in dark basements out of public view.

I have to add, however, that there is a h**l of a lot of difference between waterboarding somebody, and cutting off their fingers one by one and shipping them back to their home country in a box. The latter was just recently done to a captive.

[BPierce]

There is a lot of misinformation out there about torture and interrogation in general and most of us would use it if the circumstances were right. Keep in mind that there are many kinds of information that one may wish to obtain. If the stories told by our returning POWs are true, their captors used torture in an attempt to gain general information. Often a sort of fishing expedition, in the hope that they might learn something they could use. This is a really good way to get bad information. They also used torture to get admissions that could be used to embarrass our military and government.

Drugs can be used if you have a lot of time and the medical and psychological people to do it. Polygraphs and medical EEG machines can be used and with a good operator can often learn what is needed from the reaction to the questions even if the subject refuses to answerer.

The problem is that most of the situations the majority of us see as justifying torture, are very time sensitive and take place in field situations when none of the sophisticated equipment is available. That is the reason I would rather train our field operatives is something like waterboarding than have them resort to cutting off fingers in an effort to save their comrades lives.

[Father Time]

Originally Posted by redhed

I think it is naive to believe that this sort of interrogation hasn't been done all along by all sides and is just now being aired in public.

Torture is wrong, human suffering is wrong in any shape or form, but I am afraid that no matter what laws are passed or doctrines laid down, it is going to go on whether we like it or not. It'll just go on behind locked doors, in dark basements out of public view.

I have to add, however, that there is a h**l of a lot of difference between waterboarding somebody, and cutting off their fingers one by one and shipping them back to their home country in a box. The latter was just recently done to a captive.

I'm sort of inclined to agree with you on all points, redhed, but it wasn't always policy and it still doesn't make it right in any way.