Loading the Garand in Combat

[RandyM]

I've been reading "US Infantry Weapons In Combat" by Mark G. Goodwin. A common theme throughout the book seems to be that most of the guys using the Garand preferred carrying ammo in the bandoliers as opposed to the cartridge belt (in fact a lot of them used the belt pockets to carry items other than ammo).

Question: Would the ammo in the bandoliers been packed with the cardboard cover like the Greek HXP? I can't imagine trying to pull clips out of a soft bandolier in a hurry during combat. Does anyone know if they had any tricks I haven't learned about for rapid reload under fire?

The book is an interesting read... I highly recommend it.


Randy

[big boomer]

Just a guess but it might be easier to get the ammo out of the bandoliers when in the prone position. I have heard that some guys would throw out an empty clip to make the enemy think they were empty and then let them have it. The story was the enemy would wait for the ping and the flying clip and rush the guy while unloaded so our guys would make a sound and throw the clip and wait for a good shot.

[just_a_car]

Hopefully eclancy will catch this thread and weigh-in... He might have some insight many of us might not have access to here. (I know I have no clue and it's a darn good question!)

[GlockMeister]

Or maybe a vet of WWII will see it and give first hand reasoning? Or is eclancy one on the same?

[kygunsmith]

The belt ammo, in ctg pouches at the waist were last resort. Most men carried several bandoleers to supplement these. When you were clawing these from the belt "you were out". Those packed w cardboard loops were easily torn off in the ldg process. Often a bare clip was held in the left hand or clipped to the sling for a quickee. Men even laid out bare clips around their firing pos for quick access, too.
No magic tricks just bitter experience, and you too, would pick up these tricks if you lived?

[just_a_car]

Originally Posted by GlockMeister

Or maybe a vet of WWII will see it and give first hand reasoning? Or is eclancy one on the same?

Not sure if he is or not, but he shore do know lots 'bout 'em!

[Full MeTal Jack]

The belts have 10 pouches. Bandoliers have six pockets. The bandoliers are longer with thin 1 1/4" straps. Its easy to string 10 bandoliers over your shoulder as oppossed to belts. Belts 18" dia. (me) Bandoliers 26" dia.
Simple, you can carry more ammo using bandoliers.
Removing clips, ah, about the same.

[Orlando]

The clip ,ping thing is all a myth. Ask a Vet some day if you could here a ping in battle.

[nathangdad]

I cannot speak for the ammo/clip/cardboard issue but
soldiers did quite often use one the bandoleer pouches to
carry purified sulfur which was an emergency packing for a wound.

I know this personally from my uncles Bruce Franklin and
Orville Brewer who went from the Normandy beaches to the
furtherest penetration by May, 1945. Each man is now
deceased.

Also, while it is often cited in reference to WW2 the ejected
clip making a pinging noise heard by the enemy is more
correctly associated with the Korean conflict during winter
and the rocky caves often encountered.

[Orlando]

Yes but in battle with small arms fire and mortars etc your ears would be ringing so much I seriously doubt you could hear any ping. Its a movie myth. I have asked several Vets about being able to hear the enbloc ping and they just laughed

[nathangdad]

Well, it is not exactly a movie myth. It really did happen in Korea.
The tactic was to find Americans in (preferably) a rocky cave during winter then fire and hold fire. Unfortunately, the Americans would respond with a massive volley of Garand fire causing a group depletion of ammo at about the same time. A scout near the cave would detect the clips
hitting the rocks and give an attack sign.

It saddens me to know this happened. My father's friend, Bob
Sinclair, lived yet lost his lower right leg in the pullback to the
38th parallel. However, we did get wise to this tactic. G.I.'s learned
not to have a group reply to the initial volley of enemy fire.

I will see if I can find Bob and ask him for further details and perhaps
his address should others in this forum wish greater verification.

Good luck and good shooting

[Orlando]

Those North Koreans must have real good ears

[M14man]

The myth is hogwash,plain and simple. A good soldier can reload in 5 seconds, well before an enemy soldier could get up from his cover and advance the needed yards.

[Capt'n Mil Coll]

The M1 rifle fires several types of ammunition. The rifleman should be able to recognize them and know which type is best for certain targets. The M1, M1C and M1D Garand rifles fire .30 U.S. (.30-06) ammunition. Commercial sporting type ammunition will usually function if the bullets are of the right length, and are loaded to pressures approximating those of military loads. When using other than military issue ammunition, the sights (peep or scope) must be zeroed in for various ranges with the particular type of ammunition, due to differences in velocities and wind-bucking characteristics of the particular round. Military ammunition is marked on the tip of the bullet in color, indicating the type of bullet.


26. Description
a. Ball, M-2. This cartridge is used against personnel and unarmored targets, and can be identified by its unpainted bullet. M-2 ball is the most common of the military loads, is not marked in color, as it is the only one left plain (aside from the frangible ball). It has a gilding-metal jacket. The length of the bullet is 1.123 inches
b. Armor Piercing, M-2. This cartridge is used against lightly armored vehicles, protective shelters, and personnel, and can be identified by its black bullet tip.
c. Armor Piercing Incendiary, M-14. This cartridge is used, in place of the armor piercing round, against flammable targets. The tip of the bullet is colored with aluminum or white paint.
d. Incendiary, M-1. This cartridge is used against unarmored, flammable targets. The tip of the bullet is painted blue.
e. Tracers and M-25. These cartridges are for use in observing fire, signaling, target designation, and incendiary purposes. The tips of the bullets are painted red for the M1 and orange for the M25.
f. Blank, M-1909. This cartridge is used to simulate rifle fire, firing salutes, training and signaling. The cartridge is identified by having no bullet, and by the cannelure in the neck of the case which is sealed by red lacquer.
g. Rifle Grenade Cartridge, M-3. This cartridge is used with the grenade launcher to propel grenades. The cartridge has no bullet and the mouth is crimped.
h. Dummy, M-40. This cartridge is used for mechanical training. These are two types. One has longitudal grooves in the case, and is usually tin plated. Another merely has small holes in the case, and no primer. These are also of use on the range when mixed in with a clip of ammo, to detect flinching on the part of the firer.
i. Match. This cartridge, used in marksmanship competition firing, can be identified by the word "MATCH" on the head stamp.
j. Frangible ball M-22. This cartridge is unmarked, but is identifiable by its bullet length, which is 1.185 inches (as opposed to 1.123 for M-2 ball).

The approximate maximum range and average muzzle velocity of the .30 ammunition issued for the M1, M1C and M1D rifles is:
Cartridge Maximum Range (yds) Feet Per SecondBall, M-2 3,500 2,800Tracer, M-1 3,350 2,750Incendiary, M-1 2,875 3,020Armor-piercing, M-2 3,160 2,770Armor Piercing, Incendiary M-14 3,300 2,830

Ammunition for the .30 M1 series of rifles usually comes packed in eight-round clips, which in turn are packed in bandoleers, and in metal cans. Ammunition may also come packed in 20-round boxes.
The standard means for carrying ammunition for the M1 was in the cartridge belt. The M1923 cartridge belt adopted for use with the M1903 Springfield rifle and its five round chargers was the belt originally issued with the M1. This belt had ten pockets which could hold either two 5 round '03 chargers or one eight round M1 clip each. After the adoption of the M1, the Model 1938 cartridge belt was adopted. This belt was essentially identical to the earlier M1923 belt but had twelve pockets instead of ten to provide extra ammunition for the greater firepower of the M1.

[Dookiebutt]

My father said it was BS. He says a rifle squad firing with M1s and maybe a BAR or a Thompson makes a hell of a lot of noise. You don't hear the "ping", nor can you hear the guy next to you screaming. According to my father, you just wanted to be one of the "half deaf guys talking real loud" when the firing was over. He also smiled when I asked about the enemy advancing on his position while he was reloading and asked me if I had any idea how fast a soldier can reload a Garand.

[kygunsmith]

Amen, Dookie, when scared (always-still?) I bet I could load a cilp before the clip hit the ground!!

[jpwilly]

They did a test between the M14 and M1. The M1 managed 53rnds in 1 min and the M14 was in the 40's. The Garand can be reloaded faster than a M14 in skilled hands. The M14 with full auto capability needs more than 8rnds to fire before having to reload. The removable box magazine can be topped off too. Otherwise I believe the M1 in semi auto under controlled aimed fire can put more rounds on target because it can be reloaded very quickly.

[rockman]

I can see where the pinging from the clip in an M-1 might have been a problem in Korea, but not in WWII. My late uncle mentioned it before he passed away as he caught near the end of WWII and was also in Korea. My Dad is a WWII Veteran, full length of the war. Dad said he never heard of it giving us away but my uncle did.

Also, don't believe the folly you hear on the Military Channel in "Top Ten Rifles". Most of those "Experts" can't pour water from a boot.

Everytime that is on T.V., I sit back and laugh and my wife cringes.

[kygunsmith]

There are many myths lately re "ping" of empty en-bloc clips letting the enemy know "we " were empty. IF this happened the GI's supposedly caught on and would hold an empty clip and drop it so the enemy would think you were empty!! Surprise!!
There was usually, in a squad, a BAR and maybe a couple of Thompsons to surprise them too?

[big boomer]

By the time I entered service they had the "new" m-16's I read the ping thing in a book about the garand. We still had 14's in the arms room but they were never issued they were backup. I did see them hosing down some flamethrowers one time I think they were scraping them.