Question on how you operate your Carry gun - Page 2

TXplt · 03-20-2008, 12:04 AM

Chambered and ready to go (when I carry an autoloader and not revolver). 1911's should in general always be carried cocked and locked (modern versions all have some type of firing pin block or strong spring to prevent accidental discharge if dropped). For the PT-145 (have same) carry on safe as well with round chambered, but it's OK either way due to its firing pin block. The light trigger pull (although "kinda" DA) just bothers me. Unload them when switching guns or storing for any length of time. Round chambered for me is very important because I might have to get the gun into action quickly, and stand a real good chance of not having time or presence of mind to cycle the slide. Modern firearms are safe in this condition, and if you always assume the gun goes bang when you pull the trigger and observe the rules of safe gun handling you won't have a negligent discharge.

It IS important you carry it the same way all the time, and practice with the gun in the same condition as you carry it. You'll revert to habit patterns if you need to employ it quickly. This means for your PT-145 you don't carry it on safe sometimes and then other times not. Maybe always just keep it on safe, and practice with it this way. This has the added bonus of locking up the gun for a bit if a BG gets a hold of it.

Mooseman684 · 03-20-2008, 01:13 AM

If you have a Fire in your House, Is your Fire Extinguisher Loaded ????
My gun(s) are Loaded , with a round under the Hammer, and safety OFF...
I have a Makarov, and that is how That particular pistol is supposed to be carried...Same as my Ruger P85 9mm.
Rich

MEXBARBARIAN · 03-20-2008, 01:35 AM

I say locked and cocked people say it only takes a second to chamber a round well im pretty sure if your being attacked that second might mean life or death im pretty sure ciminals keep theres locked and loaded so im going to do the same and be a little quicker on the draw

Zephri · 03-21-2008, 04:22 PM

I carry my CZ-83 da with the hammer down and a round in the chamber, I'd rather not worry about having to flip off a safety if a SD situation arises, just point and shoot. When I sleep I take off the holster with the gun in it and put it in my bathroom drawer along with the reload.

billy · 03-21-2008, 06:29 PM

ive got a sp101 .357 with crimson trace grip for my home gun.
i have the laser set to be dead on at 30 feet.
it is 30 feet from my bed to my front door.
i have a clear view of my front door with my head on the pillow.
erm...yes it's loaded

i don't want to think about slides /safeties or anything else.
it is a point and shoot gun.

Otter · 03-21-2008, 07:50 PM

I carry a Combat Commander in .45, I carry with a round in the chamber, full cock, safety off, in a holster, or a round in the chamber, hammer down, safety off, when not useing a holster. I always chamber a round from the magazine, never drop a round into the chamber and let the slide down. I always check the pistol if I have set it down or taken it out of the safe, release the magazine, push back on the recoil spring plug just enough to see the round in the chamber, let the slide forward, replace the magazine, let the hammer down, place pistol in the back of my pants, or holster, if I use a holster I then pull the hammer back to full cock and snap the thumb break together.
Most importantly, always do the same thing, whatever you are comfortable with, do it all the time. Don't alternate between a round in the chamber, chamber empty, safety on, safety off, do the same thing all the time. Useing the pistol should be automatic, without thinking about, "Do I need to cycle the slide? is the safety on?" Draw and fire without thinking about it.
Saint John Browning designed the 1911 keeping in mind the government's desire, "to have a pistol that can be carried with a round in the bore, requireing no futher action other than pulling the trigger."

Father Time · 03-21-2008, 07:53 PM

I am really conflicted about this subject. My carry guns are revolvers. I don't trust hammer blocks and think that a gun probably should be carried on an empty chamber, but I always carry mine fully loaded.

Otter · 03-22-2008, 07:05 AM

Wise choice, carry fully loaded.

TXplt · 03-22-2008, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otter

I carry a Combat Commander in .45, I carry with a round in the chamber, full cock, safety off, in a holster, or a round in the chamber, hammer down, safety off, when not useing a holster. I always chamber a round from the magazine, never drop a round into the chamber and let the slide down. I always check the pistol if I have set it down or taken it out of the safe, release the magazine, push back on the recoil spring plug just enough to see the round in the chamber, let the slide forward, replace the magazine, let the hammer down, place pistol in the back of my pants, or holster, if I use a holster I then pull the hammer back to full cock and snap the thumb break together.
Most importantly, always do the same thing, whatever you are comfortable with, do it all the time. Don't alternate between a round in the chamber, chamber empty, safety on, safety off, do the same thing all the time. Useing the pistol should be automatic, without thinking about, "Do I need to cycle the slide? is the safety on?" Draw and fire without thinking about it.
Saint John Browning designed the 1911 keeping in mind the government's desire, "to have a pistol that can be carried with a round in the bore, requireing no futher action other than pulling the trigger."

I won't tell you what to do, but (except under exceptional circumstances) I NEVER carry a 1911-style pistol in any condition other than cocked and locked. I know it has a grip safety, but I'm curious why you wouldn't engage the thumb safety ? It doesn't improve your time to get the pistol into action significantly, and I'm not sure I'd rely only on the SA trigger and the grip safety. Also, the thumb safety will disable the pistol for anyone who's not familiar with the gun -- Namely if a BG gets it away from you it might buy time.

As far as hammer down with round in the chamber, I can only hope your model might be a series 80 (with firing pin block unless trigger depressed) ? If not, this could be trouble (BANG) if pistol dropped.

Anyway, I'm not throwing darts, but I'm interested in your rationale and hope you've given this very careful consideration. Disabling safety devices also wouldn't work in your favor in a courtroom.

AKHunter · 03-22-2008, 10:08 PM

I always have one in the pipe when carrying. I have an HK .40sw, nice thing about HK is that they have a decock function rendering them safe when stoked. First round is DA then SA afterwards. All I have to do is flip the SAFE lever to FIRE, with my thumb, as I draw from the holster and pull the trigger.

Otter · 03-22-2008, 11:28 PM

My Combat Commander is an 80 series, even on a pre-80 or 1911A1 the firing pin isn't long enough to reach the primer with the hammer down. You can hit the hammer while the hammer is down and the firing pin won't bounce. I haven't disabled anything on my pistol.
Put a primed case in the chamber and try to fire the primer by dropping or banging the pistol with a mallet, with the hammer down, the firing pin will not protrude from the breachface of the slide.

TXplt · 03-23-2008, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otter

My Combat Commander is an 80 series, even on a pre-80 or 1911A1 the firing pin isn't long enough to reach the primer with the hammer down. You can hit the hammer while the hammer is down and the firing pin won't bounce. I haven't disabled anything on my pistol.
Put a primed case in the chamber and try to fire the primer by dropping or banging the pistol with a mallet, with the hammer down, the firing pin will not protrude from the breachface of the slide.

With a firing pin block, the pin won't hit the primer without depressing the trigger (or grip safety on the smith). However, with a non-firing pin block type of 1911 I'm pretty confident if the down hammer gets hit hard enough to get the pin going with enough intertia the primer would fire. I think this is the reason for the lighter firing pins/stronger springs in the 1911's w/o the FPB. They have no problems with a drop test cocked and locked because it's just the mass of the firing pin. Add the mass of the hammer or a direct hit on the down hammer and I think you'd get a BANG. Maybe I'm wrong (my 1911-ish pistol has a FPB block).

Sorry, poor choice of words -- by "disabling" I meant "not using" -- But I'm still curious why you choose the configuration you do (it goes completely against everything I've been taught or read and seems a good setup for an AD). I really can't see any advantages to the carry method you described over C&L (or any carry method at all other than cocked and locked for a 1911 for that matter) -- only disadvantages. Again, not trying to needle you, just wondering if I've missed something over my years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Father Time

I am really conflicted about this subject. My carry guns are revolvers. I don't trust hammer blocks and think that a gun probably should be carried on an empty chamber, but I always carry mine fully loaded.

Transfer bar guns are always safe fully loaded. If you have a modern, well maintained revolver with a hammer block it should be fine like this as well. An older revolver might give me some pause (might have a gunsmith look it over), but as long as the block is in good working condition it should be OK.

TACAV · 03-28-2008, 02:25 AM

I have two carry guns one is Double/Single with a decock but no safety. It is carried round chambered and decocked in double action, Thats the way Ive been trained to carry it and so thats what I do.

The other gun is double/single with a decock and a safety. I carry that one round chambered on single action with thumb safety on. It works much the same way as a cocked and locked 1911.

I can understand why some people carry unchambered but again, Ive always been trained to carry a gun round chambered. If you are properly carrying and drawing the gun you wont have a safety issue, as your finger is outside the trigger guard anyways.

When/if you unload at the end of the day, its basic safety again, drop the mag first, then take out the chambered round.

Every accidental discharge I personally have ever heard or read about with guns like glock were because someone didnt unload properly.

daniel900 · 03-28-2008, 01:37 PM

A unloaded hand gun is good for one thing getting you killed.

Otter · 03-29-2008, 01:46 PM

With the pre 80 series, 1911A1 or Combat Commander, with the hammer down against the firing pin retainer, a blow to the hammer will not bounce the firing pin because the hammer is against the retainer and will not move. Dropping the pistol on its muzzle could cause the firing pin to bounce forward. When I use a holster, I carry with a round in the chamber, cocked, safety off. Without a holster, I carry with a round in the chamber, hammer down. The only safety I use is the one between the ears.

Triggerjerk · 03-29-2008, 02:19 PM

My business guns are revolvers. There is no need to worry about safeties, decockers, jams of any kind, no Glockiness of keeping the trigger covered, etc. etc. etc. There are no springs compressed when the gun is at rest, so there is no fatigue or...

Sorry...did not mean to hijack the thread with revolver talk...but I'm with billy on this one. The gun is always "on safe" unless I cock it single action style, and there is always a round in the chamber. Squeeze the trigger double action and BAM!

shotgunricky · 03-29-2008, 02:35 PM

Whether it be handgun, rifle, or shotgun. Loaded nothing chambered, the only shots fired are the ones that are intentional. Also jacking a shell in the chamber of a semi auto, pump, bolt action or cocking a revolver lets the bad guys know there time on this earth is over (retreat or die at my feet).

ezearln · 03-29-2008, 03:42 PM

Sigh sorry but the only way to properly carry and the safest practical from a combat standpoint the M1911A1 is cocked and locked that IS how it was designed to be carried, how anyone who has actually had to carry one in harms way was trained to carry it carrying the M1911A1 with a round in the chamber hammer down is asking , begging actually for an unintended discharge. If you are uncomfortable about that condition then carry condition three. Empty chamber, hammer down , fully loaded magazine in the well!

LarryO1970 · 03-29-2008, 04:52 PM

I carry either my Sig 229 (.40) ... round in the chamber, no external safety other than my finger... and/or my Springfield XD (.357 Sig) exactly the same way.

... carry it like you're going to use it. In a stress situation, you are not going to have the time to chamber or even remember to disengage the safety when your life is on the line. When you see a threat coming... instinct tells you to pull, aim and fire.

If you carry with an empty chamber or on safe... well, I'd rather not be you.

TACAV · 03-30-2008, 07:32 AM

If the police have to fire their weapon, its for a defensive shooting. Which will be high stress and using gross motor movements. Also said defensive shootings take place using a small number of shots on average and in only a couple seconds on average. Also statistically who ever gets shot first usually loses.

With that said about defensive shootings, Police carry a round in the chamber in their guns. So they are instantly ready to shoot if you have too.

Even things that you have practiced many, many, many times will go right out the window in a high stress incident (like someone pulling a gun on you for example suddenly you find yourself in a defensive shooting situation)

Everything you do will be done multiple times faster than what you trained or practiced so many times before.

Your grip may not be the same, you probably will end up point shooting contrary to how much time you spent on proper sight alinement, you may not even use the front sight post at all. You might forget to rack the slide back when you reload, or keep squeezing on an empty gun for several seconds before you realize you are empty etc.

Ive seen these things happen to people who have spent much more training and time on the range practicing these things than the average citizen.

03-20-2008, 12:04 AM	#21
TXplt Lost in the Ozone Again Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 2,827 Images: 4 Blog Entries: 2	Chambered and ready to go (when I carry an autoloader and not revolver). 1911's should in general always be carried cocked and locked (modern versions all have some type of firing pin block or strong spring to prevent accidental discharge if dropped). For the PT-145 (have same) carry on safe as well with round chambered, but it's OK either way due to its firing pin block. The light trigger pull (although "kinda" DA) just bothers me. Unload them when switching guns or storing for any length of time. Round chambered for me is very important because I might have to get the gun into action quickly, and stand a real good chance of not having time or presence of mind to cycle the slide. Modern firearms are safe in this condition, and if you always assume the gun goes bang when you pull the trigger and observe the rules of safe gun handling you won't have a negligent discharge. It IS important you carry it the same way all the time, and practice with the gun in the same condition as you carry it. You'll revert to habit patterns if you need to employ it quickly. This means for your PT-145 you don't carry it on safe sometimes and then other times not. Maybe always just keep it on safe, and practice with it this way. This has the added bonus of locking up the gun for a bit if a BG gets a hold of it. __________________ Old fighter pilots never die.....They just wind up in Texas

03-20-2008, 01:13 AM	#22
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness Posts: 9,668 Images: 2	If you have a Fire in your House, Is your Fire Extinguisher Loaded ???? My gun(s) are Loaded , with a round under the Hammer, and safety OFF... I have a Makarov, and that is how That particular pistol is supposed to be carried...Same as my Ruger P85 9mm. Rich __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM!

03-21-2008, 04:22 PM	#24
Zephri Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Indianapolis, IN. "The city where nothing happens." Posts: 1,088 Blog Entries: 6	I carry my CZ-83 da with the hammer down and a round in the chamber, I'd rather not worry about having to flip off a safety if a SD situation arises, just point and shoot. When I sleep I take off the holster with the gun in it and put it in my bathroom drawer along with the reload. __________________ "All rifles need a sharp pointy object on the end!" http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l195/zephri/

03-21-2008, 06:29 PM	#25
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 12,106 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	ive got a sp101 .357 with crimson trace grip for my home gun. i have the laser set to be dead on at 30 feet. it is 30 feet from my bed to my front door. i have a clear view of my front door with my head on the pillow. erm...yes it's loaded i don't want to think about slides /safeties or anything else. it is a point and shoot gun. __________________ Last edited by billy; 03-21-2008 at 06:30 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

03-21-2008, 07:50 PM	#26
Otter Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vermont Posts: 954 Images: 6	I carry a Combat Commander in .45, I carry with a round in the chamber, full cock, safety off, in a holster, or a round in the chamber, hammer down, safety off, when not useing a holster. I always chamber a round from the magazine, never drop a round into the chamber and let the slide down. I always check the pistol if I have set it down or taken it out of the safe, release the magazine, push back on the recoil spring plug just enough to see the round in the chamber, let the slide forward, replace the magazine, let the hammer down, place pistol in the back of my pants, or holster, if I use a holster I then pull the hammer back to full cock and snap the thumb break together. Most importantly, always do the same thing, whatever you are comfortable with, do it all the time. Don't alternate between a round in the chamber, chamber empty, safety on, safety off, do the same thing all the time. Useing the pistol should be automatic, without thinking about, "Do I need to cycle the slide? is the safety on?" Draw and fire without thinking about it. Saint John Browning designed the 1911 keeping in mind the government's desire, "to have a pistol that can be carried with a round in the bore, requireing no futher action other than pulling the trigger." __________________ Life is too important to be taken seriously.

03-20-2008, 01:35 AM	#23
MEXBARBARIAN Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: AMERICA Posts: 19	I say locked and cocked people say it only takes a second to chamber a round well im pretty sure if your being attacked that second might mean life or death im pretty sure ciminals keep theres locked and loaded so im going to do the same and be a little quicker on the draw

03-21-2008, 07:53 PM	#27
Father Time Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 374 Images: 2	I am really conflicted about this subject. My carry guns are revolvers. I don't trust hammer blocks and think that a gun probably should be carried on an empty chamber, but I always carry mine fully loaded. __________________ You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.

03-22-2008, 07:05 AM	#28
Otter Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vermont Posts: 954 Images: 6	Wise choice, carry fully loaded. __________________ Life is too important to be taken seriously.

03-22-2008, 10:08 PM	#30
AKHunter Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 899	I always have one in the pipe when carrying. I have an HK .40sw, nice thing about HK is that they have a decock function rendering them safe when stoked. First round is DA then SA afterwards. All I have to do is flip the SAFE lever to FIRE, with my thumb, as I draw from the holster and pull the trigger.

03-22-2008, 11:28 PM	#31
Otter Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vermont Posts: 954 Images: 6	My Combat Commander is an 80 series, even on a pre-80 or 1911A1 the firing pin isn't long enough to reach the primer with the hammer down. You can hit the hammer while the hammer is down and the firing pin won't bounce. I haven't disabled anything on my pistol. Put a primed case in the chamber and try to fire the primer by dropping or banging the pistol with a mallet, with the hammer down, the firing pin will not protrude from the breachface of the slide. __________________ Life is too important to be taken seriously.

03-28-2008, 02:25 AM	#33
TACAV Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 629	I have two carry guns one is Double/Single with a decock but no safety. It is carried round chambered and decocked in double action, Thats the way Ive been trained to carry it and so thats what I do. The other gun is double/single with a decock and a safety. I carry that one round chambered on single action with thumb safety on. It works much the same way as a cocked and locked 1911. I can understand why some people carry unchambered but again, Ive always been trained to carry a gun round chambered. If you are properly carrying and drawing the gun you wont have a safety issue, as your finger is outside the trigger guard anyways. When/if you unload at the end of the day, its basic safety again, drop the mag first, then take out the chambered round. Every accidental discharge I personally have ever heard or read about with guns like glock were because someone didnt unload properly. Last edited by TACAV; 03-28-2008 at 02:43 PM.

03-28-2008, 01:37 PM	#34
daniel900 Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 22	A unloaded hand gun is good for one thing getting you killed.

03-29-2008, 01:46 PM	#35
Otter Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vermont Posts: 954 Images: 6	With the pre 80 series, 1911A1 or Combat Commander, with the hammer down against the firing pin retainer, a blow to the hammer will not bounce the firing pin because the hammer is against the retainer and will not move. Dropping the pistol on its muzzle could cause the firing pin to bounce forward. When I use a holster, I carry with a round in the chamber, cocked, safety off. Without a holster, I carry with a round in the chamber, hammer down. The only safety I use is the one between the ears. __________________ Life is too important to be taken seriously.

03-29-2008, 02:19 PM	#36
Triggerjerk Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 978	My business guns are revolvers. There is no need to worry about safeties, decockers, jams of any kind, no Glockiness of keeping the trigger covered, etc. etc. etc. There are no springs compressed when the gun is at rest, so there is no fatigue or... Sorry...did not mean to hijack the thread with revolver talk...but I'm with billy on this one. The gun is always "on safe" unless I cock it single action style, and there is always a round in the chamber. Squeeze the trigger double action and BAM! __________________ We old dogs can learn new tricks. We just may not like performng them. TJ Last edited by Triggerjerk; 03-29-2008 at 02:22 PM.

03-29-2008, 02:35 PM	#37
shotgunricky Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Washington State Posts: 9	Whether it be handgun, rifle, or shotgun. Loaded nothing chambered, the only shots fired are the ones that are intentional. Also jacking a shell in the chamber of a semi auto, pump, bolt action or cocking a revolver lets the bad guys know there time on this earth is over (retreat or die at my feet).

03-29-2008, 03:42 PM	#38
ezearln Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 3,175	Sigh sorry but the only way to properly carry and the safest practical from a combat standpoint the M1911A1 is cocked and locked that IS how it was designed to be carried, how anyone who has actually had to carry one in harms way was trained to carry it carrying the M1911A1 with a round in the chamber hammer down is asking , begging actually for an unintended discharge. If you are uncomfortable about that condition then carry condition three. Empty chamber, hammer down , fully loaded magazine in the well! __________________ "You can have my Freedom when I'm done with it!"

03-29-2008, 04:52 PM	#39
LarryO1970 "Blazing Saddles" GOV Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johnson Creek, WI Posts: 2,872	I carry either my Sig 229 (.40) ... round in the chamber, no external safety other than my finger... and/or my Springfield XD (.357 Sig) exactly the same way. ... carry it like you're going to use it. In a stress situation, you are not going to have the time to chamber or even remember to disengage the safety when your life is on the line. When you see a threat coming... instinct tells you to pull, aim and fire. If you carry with an empty chamber or on safe... well, I'd rather not be you. __________________ "Guess what?! I've got a fever, and the only prescription... is more cowbell!"

03-30-2008, 07:32 AM	#40
TACAV Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 629	If the police have to fire their weapon, its for a defensive shooting. Which will be high stress and using gross motor movements. Also said defensive shootings take place using a small number of shots on average and in only a couple seconds on average. Also statistically who ever gets shot first usually loses. With that said about defensive shootings, Police carry a round in the chamber in their guns. So they are instantly ready to shoot if you have too. Even things that you have practiced many, many, many times will go right out the window in a high stress incident (like someone pulling a gun on you for example suddenly you find yourself in a defensive shooting situation) Everything you do will be done multiple times faster than what you trained or practiced so many times before. Your grip may not be the same, you probably will end up point shooting contrary to how much time you spent on proper sight alinement, you may not even use the front sight post at all. You might forget to rack the slide back when you reload, or keep squeezing on an empty gun for several seconds before you realize you are empty etc. Ive seen these things happen to people who have spent much more training and time on the range practicing these things than the average citizen.