Airline pilots blame faulty rules for gun's firing

[GGReporter]

Inadequate handgun rules designed by Department of Homeland Security officials are to blame for last weekend's accidental discharge of a pistol by a commercial pilot during landing preparations, a pilots association said yesterday.

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[TXplt]

Basic Gun handling 101: You depress the trigger, the gun goes bang.

I'd much more respect someone who had the guts to just say "yes, I screwed up...."

But instead, when something happens, we blame the faceless rules and procedures.

It's no excuse for an ND. I do think the rule that you have to put the gun in a "lockbox" vice carry it is pretty damn stupid and typical Government incompetent bureaucracy. But it doesn't justify the stupidity of firing the gun then blaming someone or something else.

[wunhunglo]

Yup, I'm afraid I'm "Old School" as well and call it an ND!!

The idea of having to use a Lockbox reminds me of a friend's dealings with our RAF (Royal Air Force) bureaucracy. His aircraft (Nimrod MR2) was taking part in exercises in American with your guys and being a shooter he thought he's take the opportunity to buy some cheap (compared to UK prices) .22lr ammo!
Before he could do that he asked for permission.....DUH..Big Mistake!!
According to the "rules" any civilian ammo had to be locked in a lockbox and the key given to the Aircraft commander. He tried arguing but of course, rules is rules despite the fact that he was allowed to carry a loaded sidearm and had control and access to the aircraft's weapons systems, including Torpedoes & Depth-charges (including Nuclear when carried). But not to be trusted with any .22!!!

[shotgunricky]

Operator error. The gun don't "accidentally" go bang if there isn't a round in the pipe. Does the pilot have to carry with one in the pipe? Seams to me that they would have enough time to pull the slide back if necessary.

[Windwalker]

If he is not competent enough to carry a fully loaded weapon then he shouldn't be carrying one at all.

[Obsidious]

Originally Posted by shotgunricky

Operator error. The gun don't "accidentally" go bang if there isn't a round in the pipe. Does the pilot have to carry with one in the pipe? Seams to me that they would have enough time to pull the slide back if necessary.

This is the same argument I made to some of my co-workers who thought this was a bad idea. There is no excuse for them to have to have a round chambered. If they are required to do that, then it is the fault of the people who make the rules. If the pilot did it on his own, then it is his fault. I doubt it was the latter, since I would guess that many of these airline pilots are former military pilots. I might be wrong about that, but every airline pilot I have ever had conversations with (all three of them) were former Air Force or Navy (one was former Canadian military).

The trigger lock idea is ridiculous. Why not just place it in a locked box with a molded foam holder? If the gun is locked up and there is no round in the chamber...then gun doesn't go off.

[JOEGUN94]

regardless, if he knew the proper way to handle a firearm, if will not go off. an accident, with a gun or plane is inexcusable. should we trust him to fly. ignorance is no excuse, or i'm sorry

[samuel]

Originally Posted by Obsidious

This is the same argument I made to some of my co-workers who thought this was a bad idea. There is no excuse for them to have to have a round chambered. If they are required to do that, then it is the fault of the people who make the rules. If the pilot did it on his own, then it is his fault. I doubt it was the latter, since I would guess that many of these airline pilots are former military pilots. I might be wrong about that, but every airline pilot I have ever had conversations with (all three of them) were former Air Force or Navy (one was former Canadian military).

The trigger lock idea is ridiculous. Why not just place it in a locked box with a molded foam holder? If the gun is locked up and there is no round in the chamber...then gun doesn't go off.

Thats so rediculus I wont attempt to answer,just make aware. sam.

[Obsidious]

Originally Posted by samuel

Thats so rediculus I wont attempt to answer,just make aware. sam.

What, specifically, is ridiculous about what I said?

[TXplt]

Originally Posted by wunhunglo

Yup, I'm afraid I'm "Old School" as well and call it an ND!!

The idea of having to use a Lockbox reminds me of a friend's dealings with our RAF (Royal Air Force) bureaucracy. His aircraft (Nimrod MR2) was taking part in exercises in American with your guys and being a shooter he thought he's take the opportunity to buy some cheap (compared to UK prices) .22lr ammo!
Before he could do that he asked for permission.....DUH..Big Mistake!!
According to the "rules" any civilian ammo had to be locked in a lockbox and the key given to the Aircraft commander. He tried arguing but of course, rules is rules despite the fact that he was allowed to carry a loaded sidearm and had control and access to the aircraft's weapons systems, including Torpedoes & Depth-charges (including Nuclear when carried). But not to be trusted with any .22!!!

We used to fly to Alliance Fort Worth from Wichita Falls and buy equipment and ammo at Cabelas . Never discussed it much with anyone, and I guess that's why it worked. Better to ask forgiveness.

Obsidious--thanks for your input, and see your point. However, all modern firearms are designed to be carried with round chambered and safety on/off dependent on type, manufacturer recommendation, and policy. This is perfectly safe, and wise -- you don't know what time frame will be required to get your firearm into action so it's always best to have it ready to go. This isn't unsafe -- modern autoloaders have firing pin block which will prevent gun from going bang unless trigger depressed.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by Windwalker

If he is not competent enough to carry a fully loaded weapon then he shouldn't be carrying one at all.

+1. Always true.

[Obsidious]

Originally Posted by TXplt

Obsidious--thanks for your input, and see your point. However, all modern firearms are designed to be carried with round chambered and safety on/off dependent on type, manufacturer recommendation, and policy. This is perfectly safe, and wise -- you don't know what time frame will be required to get your firearm into action so it's always best to have it ready to go. This isn't unsafe -- modern autoloaders have firing pin block which will prevent gun from going bang unless trigger depressed.

I understand that, but for extra caution I would expect them to keep the chamber clear, especially when applying a trigger lock...knowing that doing so might set off the gun. I think someone else made mention that a pilot would have time to chamber a round before needing to fire. The article that the NRA link cited showed that they'd had been complaining about how the trigger lock could cause the gun to fire if a round was chambered. The logical thing to do would be to either a) not have a round chambered, or b) find a safer way to secure the firearm.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why anything I said was ridiculous.

[ezearln]

Obsidious, what was ridiculous was your statement about the ND being the fault of those that make the rules rather than the actual person handling the pistol when it discharged. That my friend is like saying McDonalds made you fat by your eating 10 big macs a day.

[Obsidious]

Originally Posted by ezearln

Obsidious, what was ridiculous was your statement about the ND being the fault of those that make the rules rather than the actual person handling the pistol when it discharged. That my friend is like saying McDonalds made you fat by your eating 10 big macs a day.

I said it might not be his fault. Notice the repeated use of the word if in my post? I don't know all the details so it either was or it wasn't. If he was doing what he was ordered to do, and he is required to follow orders as a condition of employment, and those orders being followed led to the ND of the weapon...then the fault lies with those who issued the orders. If he was just being careless, then it is his fault.

Again, notice the use of the word if.

[ezearln]

Obsidious I did note your use of the word "If" and "May". Let me clue you in on a widely KNOWN FACT firearms professionals around the world are familiar with . When it comes to firearms safety there ain't no "IF" and the sole and only person responsible for a ND is the firearm operator him/herself. This pilot is using an excuse I'd expect out of a 6 year old who did something he/she knew damn good a well he/she wasn't supposed to do and is now trying to shift blame for their own actions away from themselves!
It is obvious to me that there are only two or three possible primary reasons for this ND 1) The individual was handling the weapon inappropriately, ie: finger on the trigger while manipulating the slide/magazine release button/saftey lever 2) The individual was careless about following proper procedure for charging and safing the weapon for flight, ie: Not ensuring the weapon was in the proscribed condition prior to installing a trigger lock/ finger on trigger while racking the slide/attempting to install a trigger lock without verifying the safety was on or weapon was decocked/racking the slide AFTER trigger lock installed. 3) The individual was Cowboying(playing) with the pistol without verifying it's condition and making sure it was fully unloaded and cleared/dropped the weapon/ or just plain tossed it into the lock box without so much as really looking at it.

In any event the person actually handling the weapon IS the one and only person "At Fault".... (Please note my use of the word individual, as in "Individual Responsibility")

[just_a_car]

Here, here, EZ!

[Obsidious]

Originally Posted by ezearln

Obsidious I did note your use of the word "If" and "May". Let me clue you in on a widely KNOWN FACT firearms professionals around the world are familiar with . When it comes to firearms safety there ain't no "IF" and the sole and only person responsible for a ND is the firearm operator him/herself. This pilot is using an excuse I'd expect out of a 6 year old who did something he/she knew damn good a well he/she wasn't supposed to do and is now trying to shift blame for their own actions away from themselves!
It is obvious to me that there are only two or three possible primary reasons for this ND 1) The individual was handling the weapon inappropriately, ie: finger on the trigger while manipulating the slide/magazine release button/saftey lever 2) The individual was careless about following proper procedure for charging and safing the weapon for flight, ie: Not ensuring the weapon was in the proscribed condition prior to installing a trigger lock/ finger on trigger while racking the slide/attempting to install a trigger lock without verifying the safety was on or weapon was decocked/racking the slide AFTER trigger lock installed. 3) The individual was Cowboying(playing) with the pistol without verifying it's condition and making sure it was fully unloaded and cleared/dropped the weapon/ or just plain tossed it into the lock box without so much as really looking at it.

In any event the person actually handling the weapon IS the one and only person "At Fault".... (Please note my use of the word individual, as in "Individual Responsibility")

I said it might not be his fault. Notice the repeated use of the word if in my post? I don't know all the details so it either was or it wasn't. If he was doing what he was ordered to do, and he is required to follow orders as a condition of employment, and those orders being followed led to the ND of the weapon...then the fault lies with those who issued the orders. If he was just being careless, then it is his fault.

Again, notice the use of the word if.

[Shotbreak]

I had to chuckle over this one.

Remember there is no such thing as and accidental discharge when handling firearms. An accidentgal discharge is something that occurs in the back seat of a chevrolet at a drive in movie. Three things have to be present to have an unintentional firing. #1. the gun has to be loaded. #2. The gun has to be pointed at something. #3. The trigger has to somehow be moved to the rear.

Fess up flyboy.

However after long experience with govt' rules, 40+ years I do have some sympathy.

Ret'd Police Sgt./Master FA instructor & gun fight survivor.

[just_a_car]

Shotbreak, I agree with you 99%....

The other 1% is where I'll say that "worn" or "faulty" parts in a gun do occur and have caused "unintentional" discharges. Now, you could say it was "negligent", but then who do you lay the blame on?...
The owner for not replacing the parts? (even if he/she wasn't aware of the issue?)
The factory for creating a faulty or worn-prone part?
The factory worker for installing a part incorrectly or such that it would wear too fast?
....

You can see where I'm going with this. Again, I do agree with you, but sometimes there really are situations where the gun owner really isn't to blame. Take, for instance, the man that was accused recently of having a full-auto firearm due to the sear being worn to where it did a burst... not his fault, but they still charged him with it.

[TXplt]

EZ -- +1 You're completely right.

I'd personally have specified hammerless revolvers (SP-101 bobbed hammer, S+W Centennial, etc.) for the task at hand, given the wide range of backgrounds, potential use/mission and limited training. I believe this to be a better choice.

Please don't for one minute believe this "weak" response from the individual and union reflects the belief of most pilots. The more capable and competent of us ALWAYS admits our mistakes and NEVER attempts to shift blame.

Cheers.