Since 1984

[Phil Lozano]

FYI ~

If you are interested in what cartridges I have seen in Africa for plains game.


Since 1984, the plains game cartridges I have seen -


2 - 270's (Winnie)

20+ - 7mm Mag.'s (Rem, STW, Wby.)

40+ - 300 Mag.'s (Winnie, H&H and Wby).

3 - 8mm Mag.'s (Rem.)

1 - 338 '06

To many to count - 338 Mag.'s (Winnie, Ultra and Wby.)

6 - 35 Whelen's

18 - 358 Norma Mag.'s

4 - 9.3x62's

3 - 9.3x64's

To many to count - 375 Mag.'s (H&H and Wby.)

1 - 416 Mag.

1 - 458 Win. Mag.

1 - 458 Lott


Clients have brought these cartridges to shoot animals from Dik-Dik to Eland.

With few exceptions, these hunters are experienced hunters with more than a few hunts under their belts. They tend to bring cartridges that have a proven history.

Additionally, they do not come with ammo loaded with light bullets. The majority of them come with 'heavy for caliber' premium bullets, with the exception of the 300 Mag. guys. It's about a 50 - 50 split (180 grain and 200 grain bullets).

Anyone see a trend here ?

Velocity is 1 thing, bullet weight and diameter are other items to consider. Better to have all for all big game hunting.


Best,
Phil
____________________________
Stay out of sight and down wind
Professional Hunter ~ Tanzania

With all the posts here about what is a suitable cartridge for Elk, I posted the above to give you some idea of what others use on Elk sized critters.

A noted writer and hunter (CB) says the .30 cal. is his minimum for Elk.
It is not just me that thinks bigger is better.




Best,
Phil
______________________________
Stay out of sight and down wind
Professional Hunter ~ Tanzania

[Magnumsrule]

I agree with what ur saying. I however believe that Elk can be taken with 6.5 cal if the shot placement is right. However bigger is better when it comes to Elk.

[texnmidwest]

I find the above extreemly interesting and do not nor will I ever argue the point you are making. I agree that it is important to bring enough gun!

But in your experience, how many of these guys/gals bring these large magnums and wind up wounding or missing because the rifles kick too hard for them to control?

Serious question here. Not a bait.

I just think that it is important to bring enough gun but not so much that one can't place the shot well. Want to know what your experience is.

[Ron AKA]

I've only been to Africa once, and not for hunting. We spent a couple of days in Kruger National Park. I have no idea what you can hunt in Africa, but if we leave that part aside, there are a few animals there I would not try and shoot with a 270 - elephant, hippo, rhino. But after than I'm not so sure I would be uncomfortable with a 270. It certainly is fine for lion and zebra, and the like.

I think what you are seeing here is hunters who have enough money to travel to Africa to hunt, and enough to buy any gun they want, so they go way overboard just to be sure. I think there is a tendancy to think that a big gun can make up for a poor shot...

Ron

[texnmidwest]

I think you are right spot on, Ron. I am interested to hear what Phil has seen. He has watched a heck of a lot of "hunters" take shots.

[Magnumsrule]

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

I think what you are seeing here is hunters who have enough money to travel to Africa to hunt, and enough to buy any gun they want, so they go way overboard just to be sure. I think there is a tendancy to think that a big gun can make up for a poor shot...

Ron

No kidding. Whenever you watch the African hunting shows on TV, I think 90% of them dar hunters are packing huge customs with Lica, Ziess, Leupold, Kahles and the like. No bushnell or Tasco in sight hehe.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by texnmidwest

IBut in your experience, how many of these guys/gals bring these large magnums and wind up wounding or missing because the rifles kick too hard for them to control?

very few. Most of them shoot quite well. In all my years in Africa, I have had only 3 clients that shot poorly.

Most of them, know what it takes to put animals down for the count.

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

there are a few animals there I would not try and shoot with a 270 - elephant, hippo, rhino. But after than I'm not so sure I would be uncomfortable with a 270.

If you could see a dead Lion with the skin off, you may change your thinking. They are an incredible mass of muscle. I believe if you shot a Buffalo with a 270 soft, you'd never find it. An animal that can take punishment like a Buffalo would not think a wound from a 270 was very serious.

Have a look here at the bottom of the page before you think I am full of it. http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/big...life-pics.html (post your wildlife pics)

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

II think what you are seeing here is hunters who have enough money to travel to Africa to hunt, and enough to buy any gun they want, so they go way overboard just to be sure. I think there is a tendancy to think that a big gun can make up for a poor shot...Ron

I disagree with this. As I stated above, most of them are quite good shooters. They practice to be proficient with the cartridge of their choice.

Additionally, the cost of a new rifle is negiable in comparison to the cost of your safari. Best to get a cartridge adequate for all the shooting you will do there.

As commented above, the clients I have had have been good shots. I think there is a very small %age that think caliber/cartridge can make up for poor shooting. Personally, I think this is on the lines of an "urban myth".

Whether you bring a 338 or a 375, or a 270 . . . . . the trophy fee is the same once 1 drop of blood is found, whether we find the animal or not. Also, as all safaris are of a limited time period, do you want to spend your time on safari tracking wounded animals for 1/2 a day, or hunting another animal after we find the 1 you shot 15 minute ago.

Best,
Phil
______________________________
Stay out of sight and down wind
Professional Hunter ~ Tanzania

[Nathan123]

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

I believe if you shot a Buffalo with a 270 soft, you'd never find it.

He sure would find you in a hurry though.
That is the point that alot of folks over look (and it is a big point) I have said this here before but i will say it again. It is not weather a cartridge can do the job when everything goes right, but it is weather it can do it's job when everything goes wrong. And to be honest there is no way known to man i would take a shot at a buffalo with a .270 even if conditions were perfect.

For a quick example for you folks. The bit of meat in between our water buffalo's horns is over 1 1/2 inches thick. The bottom of his belly is well over 2 1/2 inches thick. So add all that + muscle + bone and you start to get the picture. Then add to that his nasty temper + his shear size if you dont have your shit togeather it will make for a pretty interesting afternoon.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by Nathan123

I have said this here before

Originally Posted by Nathan123

but i will say it again.

Originally Posted by Nathan123

the point that alot of folks over look (and it is a big point)

Originally Posted by Nathan123

It is not weather a cartridge can do the job when everything goes right, but it is weather it can do it's job when everything goes wrong.

I totally agree ! After viewing the photos in the link in the above post, that Buffalo ran about 80 total yards, before laying down. If he would have come straight at us, the results may have been different.

Best,
Phil
_____________________________
Stay out of sight and down wind
Professional Hunter ~ Tanzania

[SwedeSteve]

I found your post informative and entertaining. The 300/338/375 connecton was expected. I was interested to see the 8mmMag and the 9,3x64 on your list. I had a 8Mag, but traded it for 338 long ago. I am interested in the 9,3x64 and want to shoot one. I had a chance at a Swede chambered for it, but was outbid at the last second. What is done with the meat from plains game? Donated? Sold?

[Ron AKA]

The African Buffalo does not look to me to be very much different than our American Buffalo or more correctly Bison.



I see they both top out at about 2000 lbs or 900 kg. You can't hunt Bison in NA as they were hunted into near extinction using musket type guns and early rifles with not much more power than muzzle loaders. A 270 with a 140 grain Nosler Partition at 3000 fps, should have no problem with either of these guys.

As far as lions go, they are just big cats. Put a lion beside a moose and tell me you need a bigger gun for the lion...

This all said, I'm sure one would have a lot of explaining to do around the campfire in Africa if you were the only one in the crowd with a tiny little .277" bore in your barrel .

Ron

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by SwedeSteve

What is done with the meat from plains game?

Eaten !

Best,
Phil
_______________________________

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

A 270 with a 140 grain Nosler Partition at 3000 fps, should have no problem with either of these guys.
Ron

Ron AKA,

Did you have a view at the photos in the link ?

How do you explain those results ? Bad shooting ? ?

With your comments regarding Buffalo and the 270. I invite you to come an try. Things will become immediately apparent that the 270 is not suitable for Buffalo, nor any dangerous game, other than Leopard.

How many head of DG have you shot with a 270 ?

Regards,
Phil
_______________________________
Stay out of sight and down wind
Professional Hunter ~ Tanzania

[.280Rem]

I certainly agree with a lot said here. In a place like Africa, the most gun (both bullet wt and velocity) that you can comfortably shoot and reliably hit the target should normally be the choice. Bullet construction should be a factor to. That is not to say that "lighter" can't get it done.

A lady I know has taken the game listed below with a Mannlicher stocked Steyr 20" bbl'd 7x57. Her ammo choices for different applications were 139 Hornadys at 2840fps, 160 Speer GS at 2800fps, and 173 FMJs at 2600. On all the animals which the 7x57 would be considered "marginal" she was extremely selective of her shots. The Rhino, for example, took two days of hunting/stalking to within 80 yards for a brain shot.

Arfican: Blesbok, Bongo, Bushbuck, Bush Pig, Cape Buffalo, Cape Hartabeest, Crocodile, Duiker, Gemsbock, Hippopotamus, Impala, Jackal, Kafue Lechwe, Kudu, Leopard, Lichtenstein's Hartebeest, Lion, Nyala, Red Lechwe, Sable, Sassaby, Sitatunga, Southern White Rhino, Springbok, Steenbok, Warthog, Wldebeest, Zebra,

N. Amercian: Alaskan Moose, American Bison, Caribou, Black Bear, Coyote, Elk, Pronghorn, Whitetail, Wild Boar.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by .280Rem

A lady I know has taken the game listed below with a Mannlicher stocked Steyr 20" bbl'd 7x57. Her ammo choices for different applications were 139 Hornadys at 2840fps, 160 Speer GS at 2800fps, and 173 FMJs at 2600. On all the animals which the 7x57 would be considered "marginal" she was extremely selective of her shots. The Rhino, for example, took two days of hunting/stalking to within 80 yards for a brain shot.

Arfican: Bongo, Cape Buffalo, Crocodile, Duiker, Lion, Southern White Rhino

N. Amercian: Alaskan Moose, American Bison, Caribou, Black Bear, Coyote, Elk, Pronghorn, Whitetail, Wild Boar.

I would say that is one tough Gal !

Where did she hunt ? And how many safaari did it take her to finish the accomplishment ?

Best,
Phil
_____________________________
Stay out of sight and down wind
Professional Hunter ~ Tanzania

[.280Rem]

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

I would say that is one tough Gal !

Where did she hunt ? And how many safaari did it take her to finish the accomplishment ?

Best,
Phil
_____________________________
Stay out of sight and down wind
Professional Hunter ~ Tanzania

She's a nice lady. Maybe tough, I've never seen her in that type of situation. She's about 5'2" maybe. She wrote a book about her hunts/safaris, and her reason for choosing the 7x57 as her "go to" rifle. It's called a little bit of magic JOURNAL of a lady HUNTER. By Bobbie Wallace Parsons. "a little bit of magic" is a phrase taken from a judge friend and fellow hunter who says the 7x57 has "a little bit of magic". Shes the daughter of Alabama's former Governor George C. Wallace. I don't know if her book covers all her safaris, but it covers 1982 Zimbabwe, 1983 Botswana, 1983 Alaska, 1984 Alaska, 1985 South Africa (Rhino and Cape Buff...her husband took a 74lb Bull Elephant too), 1986 Zambia (she got sleeping sickness). There are pictures from 1999 Zimbabwe, and 2000 South Africa. 1996 Canada, 1997 Canada (My mother took a black bear on this hunt too, and and filmed Mrs Parsons bow hunt taking a black bear. It was an all female Canadian Black Bear hunt) 1998 Canadian Moose hunt, 1994 Central African Rep. (Bongo). She's also taken (not with 7x57) Alaskan Brown Bear, and others. In their home are full body mounts of Rhino, Lion, Kudu, Brown Bear, Leopard, along with numerous other heads.

[SwedeSteve]

ROFL 280! She's a much better judge of game than her husband! A 74 lb Elephant! Was it a Pigmy Elephant? I know it was just a typo, but I shot coffee out my nose when I read it, and I'm still laughing...

Phil- On my other question, more specifically; who gets the meat? You or who?

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

Ron AKA,

Did you have a view at the photos in the link ?

How do you explain those results ?

How many head of DG have you shot with a 270 ?

Regards,
Phil
_______________________________
Stay out of sight and down wind
Professional Hunter ~ Tanzania

[SwedeSteve]

RonAKA- As far as I know, I am still in NA, and we hunt Bison here!

[.280Rem]

Originally Posted by SwedeSteve

ROFL 280! She's a much better judge of game than her husband! A 74 lb Elephant! Was it a Pigmy Elephant? I know it was just a typo, but I shot coffee out my nose when I read it, and I'm still laughing...

It refers to the heavist side of tusk. Not a typo. I don't know how that stands up to "trophy standars, but the curled tusk stand about 5 1/2 feet tall.

Originally Posted by SwedeSteve

RonAKA- As far as I know, I am still in NA, and we hunt Bison here!

Yep, in certain places.

[SwedeSteve]

Got it 280! But damn funny anyway, LOL!