Say you shelter-in-place, is hydrogen power the solution?

[LarryO1970]

Say something happens and the best thing to do is to shelter-in-place. Does anyone believe hydrogen power is the solution to provide power, heat, water, etc?

Looking for a generator and I feel that one that is either hydrogen powered or any biofuel is the answer.

Thoughts?

[JMcDonald]

Unless you have a way of making it indefinately (if whatever generator you have is efficient enough to both power your shelter and create more hydrogen from water), which AFAIK isn't possible, then Id stick to something you can suck out of gas tanks.

[jimkim]

Larry if I was you I would look into converting a generator to run on methane. All you need to make it is a septic tank. If you want to use Hydrogen you can make your own using electrolysis. I've been trying to get someone to build a small hydrogen producing machine for years. If you want to build it you need a solar panel, a plastic water tank, a compressor and a high pressure tank.

[Big Dog]

Google up "brown's gas" and "Hydroxy generator" - that'll get you started on the wonderful world of tinkering with hydrogen power. Be careful though - it's dangerous.....

[Blackrock]

I believe that true self sufficiency is doing without all the niceties we are pampered with. While not always practical in urban conditions roughing it isn't as bad as it seems. Gas or kerosene lanterns and a wood stove for heat and cooking are about the only energy sources you need. Now if you need to ramp up the comfort level with electric lighting and gas heat then that's another story.

[Ferroflame]

Solar Power.

=] You don't have to suck gas out of things, and it's always there for you. ^_^

[ArkansasHunter]

I would prolly use pooky power...I have an idea to make a small scale methane mill I'll call it.
I'm going to put chicken litter in a water/ Air proff bladder in direct sun light and see if any pressure increases develope and draw off the methane or see how long it will cause to scale light to burn (as in the size of a birthday candle.
This is just for starters to what I'll end up doing next on a larger scale.

[nathangdad]

Storage escapage can be a real problem due to the very small size of
the hydrogen atom. Note it is a very dangerous gas.
It will not have an inserted odor such as natural gas or butane has as a safety measure. It burns with a very light blue flame often not readily observable in some lighting conditions.

Also, the equipment to process hydrogen may be quite expensive and
difficult to repair.

So, some tanks of propane may be a more useful way to go. The gas is plentiful and affordable, the technology is well established, and cooking/heating units are readily available as are units to hook it up to power sources such as generators and truck engines.

[GlockMeister]

Methane gas? Just buy about 50 cows and cultivate their POO! There's your methane gas...

[ezearln]

LOL actually ya'll there are diagrams and instructions on how to build and maintain a small scale methane generator (still if you prefer) in the foxfire series of books. Properly fed it is sufficient to power a fairly robust gas fired heater, stove and properly adjusted LP lamps. If you doubled the plant you could very well power an LP outfitted engine/gen set. But I'd add solar and wind turbine technolgy to the mix if nothing else for redundancies sake.

[tlarkin]

Solar power may not work if the atmosphere is scorched from Nuclear fall out. Depends I guess on how bad the SHTF.

I don't have any definite answers but you could look into the following:

1) Steam power - while efficient it can be dangerous and takes the know how, but it is not rocket science.

2) Bio fuel diesel engine, they have some that run off of grease these days. So, when you cook your bacon in the morning save all that grease. I am not sure how power efficient it is either. I just know they exist.

3) Gas powered generator be it fuel, methane, hydrogen, all have their pros/cons

4) Water electrolysis, again am not quite sure the ins and outs I just know it exists. I know it has to do with heating up salt water and separates the hydrogen from the oxygen. It would require an electrical current and I suppose if you could get it working well enough you could have an alternator charging up a battery with the power.

[Capt'n Mil Coll]

Did you know you can actually buy a hydrogen generator in the local hobby stores now? It looks like an old toy bubblegum machine. It powers a foot long rocket. You put water in it run an electrical current through it generating hydrogen and oxygen. You light it up using a battery and WHOOOSH off goes the rocket. I think they were around 30 bucks.

[Big Dog]

A few tidbits gleaned from Google search...

An online book on Hydrogen generation and power - not free though.
Practical Hydrogen Systems: an Experimenter's Guide by Phillip Hurley

Another source for info and a kit to convert a car....
How To Make My Car Drink Water Instead of Fuel ?

I don't vouch for any of this - just passing some leads. Buyer beware, as with anything online!

Also, google up Stanley Meyers - he's done interesting work on electrolizers to produce hydroxy gas - a burnable fuel derived from water.

[just_a_car]

The best way to do it is using solar power or man-power (such as a bicycle generator setup), but any power you get out of hydrogen generation from water will be less than the energy you are putting into it. The law of conservation of energy and the effect of entropy can be a pain in the butt and also one of your best friends, depending on how you use it.

If you must get some sort of "fuel", then converting dung into methane or plants into ethanol is a decent method, but if you're just trying to charge up some batteries to be able to run a radio and/or light bulb, then you're best off using solar power or a bicycle generator (stationary bike with a band hooked from a spinning wheel to a generator) to do that kind of thing; plus the bike generator will help keep you in shape if you're stuck in your house during SHTF or ZHTF.

[Ferroflame]

Originally Posted by tlarkin

Solar power may not work if the atmosphere is scorched from Nuclear fall out. Depends I guess on how bad the SHTF.

Originally Posted by tlarkin

Solar power may not work if the atmosphere is scorched from Nuclear fall out. Depends I guess on how bad the SHTF.

Well, it would probably destroy a bit of our atmosphere, making the Sun's Rays get to Earth without all that filtering and stuff. I think that would make a solar generator work better, wouldn't it?

I really have no idea how those work, but I'm just trying to keep the conversation going. ^_^

[Mooseman684]

Originally Posted by just_a_car

The best way to do it is using solar power or man-power (such as a bicycle generator setup), but any power you get out of hydrogen generation from water will be less than the energy you are putting into it. The law of conservation of energy and the effect of entropy can be a pain in the butt and also one of your best friends, depending on how you use it.

If you must get some sort of "fuel", then converting dung into methane or plants into ethanol is a decent method, but if you're just trying to charge up some batteries to be able to run a radio and/or light bulb, then you're best off using solar power or a bicycle generator (stationary bike with a band hooked from a spinning wheel to a generator) to do that kind of thing; plus the bike generator will help keep you in shape if you're stuck in your house during SHTF or ZHTF.

Evidently, you haven't seen Stanley Meyers work or patents on hydrogen from water...If things won't produce more energy than is put in to it then how do Thermo-Nuclear bombs work, and how do Nuclear reactors work ?
sometimes you have to think out of the box...

[just_a_car]

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

Evidently, you haven't seen Stanley Meyers work or patents on hydrogen from water...If things won't produce more energy than is put in to it then how do Thermo-Nuclear bombs work, and how do Nuclear reactors work ?
sometimes you have to think out of the box...

Okay, first off, I wasn't going to think that anyone would be using nuke power and kind of ruled that out.

Second, that power that you're getting is still power that has to come from somewhere; that somewhere is the bonds and particles of the atom via fusion or fission. Those atoms had to get that power from somewhere also; that somewhere is a supernova for any atom heavier than iron (ref: Origin of the Chemical Elements: Stellar Nucleosynthesis and Supernovae Play Crucial Roles). So, unless you're doing supernova reactions on a small-scale (which, if you are, please let the scientific community and the Nobel Committee know), then you're only using up another fuel's energy to make another fuel. Because there is energy loss in the kinetics of the reactions, you can never get out what is 'put in'; now, you may not put the energy in, but the universe always takes it's 'cut' in any reaction.

You're right, I haven't looked into his reactions, I'm only basing this off my many classes that I've taken to get me one quarter away from graduating from the University of Washington with a bachelor's of science in Chemistry, ACS-approved.

[Mooseman684]

I sent you a PM... the feat is to use small amount of power to release a High power Fuel that is completely usable from an "Inert Substance" at a Molecular level...
Rich

[Big Tool]

Originally Posted by just_a_car

Okay, first off, I wasn't going to think that anyone would be using nuke power and kind of ruled that out.

Second, that power that you're getting is still power that has to come from somewhere; that somewhere is the bonds and particles of the atom via fusion or fission. Those atoms had to get that power from somewhere also; that somewhere is a supernova for any atom heavier than iron (ref: Origin of the Chemical Elements: Stellar Nucleosynthesis and Supernovae Play Crucial Roles). So, unless you're doing supernova reactions on a small-scale (which, if you are, please let the scientific community and the Nobel Committee know), then you're only using up another fuel's energy to make another fuel. Because there is energy loss in the kinetics of the reactions, you can never get out what is 'put in'; now, you may not put the energy in, but the universe always takes it's 'cut' in any reaction.

You're right, I haven't looked into his reactions, I'm only basing this off my many classes that I've taken to get me one quarter away from graduating from the University of Washington with a bachelor's of science in Chemistry, ACS-approved.

Sounds like you are learning a few things from your courses. My fiancee is majoring in biological science and she has learned nothing from any of her chemistry/organic courses.

University of Southern Miss Sucks imo. I don't even go to class. I just read my books and pass my classes. Thank god for decent
text books.



Back on topic. I imagine Hydrogen power would be extremely inefficient in a shtf situation. I would try not to depend on any type of modern technology involving electricity.

[Cyrano]

The Mythbusters had a sequence a few days ago dealing with methane. They held a competition to find the four best science students in the country, and brought them on Mythbusters to meet this challenge: build a methane-powered lawn mower as a proof-of-concept machine. The four kids, assisted by Grant and Kari, built a methane digester from scratch, generated methane which they gathered in truck tire innertubes, and modified the lawn mower carburetor to accept methane gas instead of gasoline vapor. They had to use an electric drill to spin the engine fast enough to get it to start, but once started it continued to run and they mowed a small stretch of lawn with it to show the concept is feasible.

It's not a huge stretch from a 5 HP lawn mower engine to spinning a generator to crank out juice using methane as the fuel. The key is a properly built methane digester and a good accumulator system, which is actually harder to devise than the digester.

One suggestion: to get an idea of the difficulties involved, go take a look at the old BBC comedy series about self-sufficiency called Good Neighbors (aka The Good Life). One episode revolves around Tom Good building a methane digester and electrical generator setup wuith enough output to power the electric lights, the refrigerator and the chest freezer in his house. It's on point to this discussion. (Plus, of course, it's funny!)