ft. lbs. for Deer

[toolman]

As far as the average whitetail, they're no harder to kill than a human. The near-universal figure for a human is 300 lbs.\ft. This is .22 LR territory, which most of us wouldn't recommend because we shoot at longer distances. Ole LeftyO and I don't always agree on things, but I'm with him all the way on this one, it's all about hitting where you aim with almost any decent caliber.

[Ron AKA]

Checked a few loads at the Gunners Den site. They think 1300 is enough, and 1100 is not. Here is the 25-06 for example. Perhaps a bit of an overestimation, as I think 1500 is enough for moose.

Gunnersden.com/Rifles/25-06 Remington

Ron

[.280Rem]

Originally Posted by lefty o

im not too worried about minimum ft lbs, shot placement is much more important.

I think that is, in part, the reason for a minimum ft lbs. So that the bullet can penetrate to where it needs to, through flesh bone. Remember, the larger the frontal area of the bullet the more ft pounds are needed to penetrate. Many police ballistic vests are rated to stop 9mm, 357 and such but willl tell you a 22 mag will penetrate...the energy is more concentrated in one spot, though it's less energy. Is why you see 22lr kill people because the bullet bounces around inside the chest cavity, but a 25 just goes in a little bit and stops and lots of people survive them. It's not the energy that kills, though it can contribute to putting the animal down. But you need enough energy to penetrate fully. Remember, an arrow from a bow carries little energy, but they kill rather quickly on well placed shots with sharp broadheads. Shoot that same arrow at the same deer tipped with blunt field tips, and it wont penetrate, most likely not enough to even fully get in the vitals, especially if you hit any bone.

The "minimum ft lbs" is designed to take in to account a wide range of bullet wts and shapes in order to ensure proper penetration (proper shot placement) You might hit on the target where you intend, but if it doen't penetrate to the vitals, then it's not a properly placed shot.

[FISHPOND]

Well said 280.......

[Rangersniper175]

280 that is the most common sense thing I have read in a long time. Just a little brain power and a whole lot of common sense would get people so much further along in life. VERY WELL STATED

[jimkim]

good post 280. I think one reason they came up with a minimum is how many non-marksmen there are. You can take a deer with a .22lr if you hit him in the right place. but not everybody can do that. A minimum energy helps eliminate part of the idiot with a gun problem. Not all of it just part of it.

[Lng Rng]

Minimum energy? I don't really worry about that, becuase by the time any of my deer rifles dip below what 1200 lbs, they are out of my range anyways.

Think of it this way. I have seen a deer get hit by a conversion van going about 30 mph, and the deer survived. It was pretty shook up, but it stood around for a few seconds, and trotted off. How much energy was delivered to that deer? Im not sure, but full size van going 30 mph has to hit with more energy than a 30-06.

And thats why lefty said shot placement. Tou can have a lot of energy, but energy doesn't kill the deer. When I shoot a deer with my bow, the energy of my arrow doesn't kill the deer, my arrow going through its hear/lungs will though.

[Kaboom]

I want a big hole on both sides, almost all deer die from gunshots to an organ but not all are found. You need two holes incase of an angled shot (down hill quartering away) a bullet that deposits all it's energy (no exit) would just fill up the chest cavitiy and not leave much of a blood trail. In heavy cover this could be bad. I catch plenty of grief over using to much gun, but I've never lost a single deer that was hit in the body. I did track a big buck I shot with a arrow last fall that wiped out a lung, 3 miles and 24 hours later he died, bumped him twice, no snow and falling leaves if not for a good blood trail I would never have found him (2" mechanical broad head clear clean through)

[mtm1]

Two years ago I took 2 nice Mule bucks with a load that produced slightly over 5500 ft/lbs. No tracking involved, at all. You could probably get by with slightly less.

[Bravo]

5000 ft-lbs is what you're supposed to hunt elephants with....

I'm guessing the deer were humanely killed

Just curious, what were you using?

[sell33]

5500 lbs??? wow....that musta been what like a 600 nitro?? or maybe a 460 wby mag, i just checked it has over 7000 at the muzzle...that is a lot of energy lol

I personally just say shoot them in the right spot and they will go down....

[mtm1]

Nothing that serious just a 338/378 with 210 TSXs at 3450 fps.

[samuel]

Originally Posted by .280Rem

I think that is, in part, the reason for a minimum ft lbs. So that the bullet can penetrate to where it needs to, through flesh bone. Remember, the larger the frontal area of the bullet the more ft pounds are needed to penetrate. Many police ballistic vests are rated to stop 9mm, 357 and such but willl tell you a 22 mag will penetrate...the energy is more concentrated in one spot, though it's less energy. Is why you see 22lr kill people because the bullet bounces around inside the chest cavity, but a 25 just goes in a little bit and stops and lots of people survive them. It's not the energy that kills, though it can contribute to putting the animal down. But you need enough energy to penetrate fully. Remember, an arrow from a bow carries little energy, but they kill rather quickly on well placed shots with sharp broadheads. Shoot that same arrow at the same deer tipped with blunt field tips, and it wont penetrate, most likely not enough to even fully get in the vitals, especially if you hit any bone.

The "minimum ft lbs" is designed to take in to account a wide range of bullet wts and shapes in order to ensure proper penetration (proper shot placement) You might hit on the target where you intend, but if it doen't penetrate to the vitals, then it's not a properly placed shot.

I have never heard or seen a case of a .22lr bouncing around ina any kind of chest cavity..22lr bullets arent going very fast to start with and it doesnt take much to stop them.Please give references where this has happened.As to a .22mag out penetrating a 9mm or .357,please tell me where I can find verification of this.A 9mm has more penetration in ballistic gelatin than a .45acp.That can be found anywhere.A .357 is a lot more than a 9mm.Power and big bullets will not make up for bad shooting.If it would,no animal would ever get away.Please post where I can get verification of your statements so I know you are right. sam.

[.280Rem]

Originally Posted by samuel

I have never heard or seen a case of a .22lr bouncing around ina any kind of chest cavity..22lr bullets arent going very fast to start with and it doesnt take much to stop them.Please give references where this has happened.As to a .22mag out penetrating a 9mm or .357,please tell me where I can find verification of this.A 9mm has more penetration in ballistic gelatin than a .45acp.That can be found anywhere.A .357 is a lot more than a 9mm.Power and big bullets will not make up for bad shooting.If it would,no animal would ever get away.Please post where I can get verification of your statements so I know you are right. sam.

Having policed for 7 years and worn a vest, and read the materials on different vest, I stand by what I said. I have no reference to give you for you to personally study.

Having policed for 7 years, been a criminal defense attorney for 5, and a prosecutor for over 2 years now, and having worked dozens of shootings/murders in various forms and stages, and having had many indepth conversations with medical examiners about ballistic wounds, I stand by what I said on the 22LR and the 22Mag. The are light, and have a small frontal area, and they penetrate flesh and organs easily, but are easily deflected by bone. If you want to test this theory yourself, take a baseball bat and try to impale yourself on it and see how much force it takes. Then try the same thing with an ice pick. It's the very same reason that most ballistic vest will tell you they're rated for XX caliber at XX velocity, but not rated for edged weapons. You can run a knife right through a vest that will easily stop a .357 125gr and 1500 fps.

Thanks to the othere that understood what I wrote.

[samuel]

If you have these proofs of actual incidents where the .22lr bounced around in a chest cavity,or a .22mag out penetrated a .9mm/.357,I will accept that as proof.I have often heard of such things but in 60yrs of experience and info from many books,never saw verification.Any bullet can be deflected by bone,but I have never heard of one of any size or power/weight bouncing around like a ball in an open space.As to which object will penetrate,Put the same pressure on the ballbat over the whole mass as you have on the icepic and the bat will penetrate the same as the ice pick.Since both are motivated by muscle power and one is much more massive,the pressure is greatly decreased on the more massive point,thus causing less penetration.The very fact that .22 bullets are light makes them less capable of penetration.Post some actual incidents where this really happened and I will believe you.Until then,all I have is what knowledge I have gained from books and 60yrs experience. sam.

[sell33]

Originally Posted by samuel

I have never heard or seen a case of a .22lr bouncing around ina any kind of chest cavity..22lr bullets arent going very fast to start with and it doesnt take much to stop them.Please give references where this has happened.As to a .22mag out penetrating a 9mm or .357,please tell me where I can find verification of this.A 9mm has more penetration in ballistic gelatin than a .45acp.That can be found anywhere.A .357 is a lot more than a 9mm.Power and big bullets will not make up for bad shooting.If it would,no animal would ever get away.Please post where I can get verification of your statements so I know you are right. sam.

My brother in law just got out of the police academy a couple months ago and he told me about a video they watched where an officer was shot with a 22lr hand gun...went in at the armpit and bounced around inside the chest cavity killing him. I don't know anything about the incident at all i just know this is what he told me.

[samuel]

Originally Posted by sell33

My brother in law just got out of the police academy a couple months ago and he told me about a video they watched where an officer was shot with a 22lr hand gun...went in at the armpit and bounced around inside the chest cavity killing him. I don't know anything about the incident at all i just know this is what he told me.

As I stated,I have heard these stories many times in gunshops and rangetalk,but never saw or read verification.The part that is mysterious is,a .22 bullet having energy to bounce around in a ribcage,tearing tissue up when it is probably sidewise,but even if it stayed point forward,and not having energy enough to exit the cavity.Someone please find proof that I am wrong.That is all I ask.I have seen bullets that were deflected,even .22lr bullets and took a different rout,but I have never seen a case of one completely reversing course.If someone has proof,please post it. sam.

[binfordw]

Originally Posted by sell33

My brother in law just got out of the police academy a couple months ago and he told me about a video they watched where an officer was shot with a 22lr hand gun...went in at the armpit and bounced around inside the chest cavity killing him. I don't know anything about the incident at all i just know this is what he told me.

Yea, the amazing rubber .22 rounds. Heard it before, total BS if you ask me.

Any bullet striking bone or other items can be easily deflected. I think the stories just turn into "bouncing around" because most people don't seem to believe a .22 is lethal.

[.280Rem]

Originally Posted by binfordw

Yea, the amazing rubber .22 rounds. Heard it before, total BS if you ask me.

Any bullet striking bone or other items can be easily deflected. I think the stories just turn into "bouncing around" because most people don't seem to believe a .22 is lethal.

Nobody is suggesting they make several revolutions around the chest cavity, but they do tend to deflect off ribs, colar bones and such, and have been known to do it more than once. It's not fairy tale, you just have to use common sense and not inject your own exagerations in to it. 22LR's, are notourious lethal, out of proportion to their comparative lack of size, wt, and velocity. Fact of the matter is, as a whole, most handgun rounds are notoriously non-lethal. Many are good at getting the target's attention and making them cease hostility, but, if I recall correctly, the stats say that about 2/3s or better of all handgun wounds are survived. The 22LR isn't any more lethal, but for it's relative "pipsqueakness" it's surprisingly lethal.

Originally Posted by samuel

If you have these proofs of actual incidents where the .22lr bounced around in a chest cavity,or a .22mag out penetrated a .9mm/.357,I will accept that as proof.I have often heard of such things but in 60yrs of experience and info from many books,never saw verification.Any bullet can be deflected by bone,but I have never heard of one of any size or power/weight bouncing around like a ball in an open space.As to which object will penetrate,Put the same pressure on the ballbat over the whole mass as you have on the icepic and the bat will penetrate the same as the ice pick.Since both are motivated by muscle power and one is much more massive,the pressure is greatly decreased on the more massive point,thus causing less penetration.The very fact that .22 bullets are light makes them less capable of penetration.Post some actual incidents where this really happened and I will believe you.Until then,all I have is what knowledge I have gained from books and 60yrs experience. sam.

One anectdotal study, but not conclusive. It's all about physics the the design of the vests. Study up on it if you must, it aint that hard to get.

Legions Fate: Part 3 - Ballistic Vest Live Fire Test

Read them all, but pay attention to #10. I think this is also the highest classification of vest, and much heavier than normally found on most street officers.

[samuel]

I agree about the lethality of the .22lr.I dont have the article at hand but the longest fatal shot I know of with a .22lr was over 1650ft.The .22rf,mainly .22shorts,has been used for slaughtering livestock for years,including 300lb+ hogs and 1000lb beef. The dangerous part with them in a human body is the small hole they make and it is often missed by a medical team and the victim developes infection and dies later.I am familiar with bulletproof vests.They used to be easy to penetrate with multiple shots,but some they have now really work good.This has been intresting,and I do understand your point.They used to and may still make a .22mag with a full metal jacket that did penetrate deep,but wasnt very effective on small game.Thanks for the discussion. sam.