Pick just one caliber.

[Rattle'em up]

Originally Posted by nc.hunter

I would say a good bolt action 30-06 would do great. They have loads from 55 grain to 180 grains.

The 30-06 load doesn't just stop at 180 it goes all the way up to 220.

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

Most popular does not mean the best suited for all animals or situations.

Many cartridges are capable of killing game, but may not be suitable to hunt game with.

The unwritten laws that the animals be dispatched as swiftly as possible, must be adhered to and must be followed. If we do not follow them by choice, we will be required to follow regulations dictated by others. The Anti's have all the $ they need to fight us in court (insert ACLU here). There is no popular vote entertained in a court of law, so we can't just 'out vote them'. They have smartened up. They don't like hunting, and have figured out the public is apathetic when it comes to voting, so they started fighting in court. And winning.

Don't think so . . . . . . . . . . . . ask Californian's that can no longer use lead bullets, or some of the other states where the hunting seasons were delayed/postponed/or cancelled, e.g. Mt. Lion, Black Bear, Dove etc.

Personally, I regard hunting with a cartridge that is not capable of taking a ___________ under all circumstances presented unethical.

Hunters that do not like or are not used to recoil, get a muzzle break (as much as I hate them, due to the fact I am almost deaf because of them), or add weight to the rifle, but for Pete's sake, get a larger diameter (above 2,400 fps) rifle when you draw that Brown Bear tag, or book that exotic hunt. In the total cost of your hunt, the price of a new rifle is insignificant. Sometimes what you have or have always used, is "short of the mark". Better to go too big/large than to go too little/small.

I have a love affair with my 7 Mag., but I know it is not suitable for all animals in N.A., let alone other places.

It is, what it is . . . . . . . . . a good, flat shooting Deer (and smaller) cartridge/rifle.

Sure it will kill larger animals, but not under all situations encountered while hunting ! If things go 100% right on each hunt, yes, you would have a bit more success. And, 2 holes bleed much better than 1. Additionally, exit holes bleed much better than entrance holes. So if your cartridge will not put 2 holes (1 on each side) in a critter in a quartering away position, you need a bigger, more powerful cartridge.


I have seen posts that suggest you can get away with a smaller caliber cartridge when you are on a guided hunt. One question for you if you feel that way . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . what if you and the guide get separated ? What if you are on a Bear hunt and the Bear 'hits' the guide first, knocking his rifle into the bush, or takes him out ?

I think you would feel better if you had a large caliber, heavy for caliber bullet to end the story, rather than that snappy little 264 Super Lazer claiming to put all animals feet up at 600 yards.

I sure would.

JMO

Best,

To go big Bear hunting in Alaska without at least a .44mag as a back-up would be suicide. The 338 and .44mag is my choice.

[7mmremmag1995]

Originally Posted by Rattle'em up

Who's red truck is that in your favorite picture list?

i dont know i just found it on the internet

[turner]

Originally Posted by nc.hunter

I would say a good bolt action 30-06 would do great. They have loads from 55 grain to 180 grains.

I like your choice...BUT, just for the record, there's no place for the 55Gr loading for big game, and.... it's not difficult to find some 200 and 220gr loadings for the B I G stuff!

[nc.hunter]

Originally Posted by turner

I like your choice...BUT, just for the record, there's no place for the 55Gr loading for big game, and.... it's not difficult to find some 200 and 220gr loadings for the B I G stuff!

Woah, I didnt know that they had 220 grain 30-06 bullets. That must be some pretty strong stuff.

[felix cortinas]

.308 or .30-06, so many options, and so very proven.

[Bravo]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: 30-06 Springfield

You get get bullet weights as light as 95gr (accelerator sabot rounds), to as heavy as 220gr. It will take everything in North America, and there is literally a load designed for everything from 30 lb animals to 1000+ lb animals.

[turner]

Originally Posted by nc.hunter

Woah, I didnt know that they had 220 grain 30-06 bullets. That must be some pretty strong stuff.

I agree, I'd think it pretty stout. I once read an article where it sowed in penetration testing to penetrate about on a par with quality .338 mag rounds. I was so impressed I ran out and bought a box (still unused...lol) The S.D. is a whopping .331

66201 - .30-06 Springfield Express Centerfire Rifle Cartridge, 220-Grain Soft Point Core-Lokt Bullet, 2410 fps, 20 Rounds Per Box - Manufactured by: Remington

[jd1911]

Originally Posted by Bravo

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: 30-06 Springfield

You get get bullet weights as light as 95gr (accelerator sabot rounds), to as heavy as 220gr. It will take everything in North America, and there is literally a load designed for everything from 30 lb animals to 1000+ lb animals.

i agree no doubts

[sbowers5]

All the calibers mentioned are good and all have their following for various reasons be them actual or personal, I like the 7x57 mauser because it is a proven round and I like the .284 dia. projectile lots of different loads and bullets to chose from. Just my opinion.
steve

[forgunsandgame]

My 30-06... Because it has already killed everything from wood chucks to moose.

[andrew cochran]

I'm gonna be one of em that says .30/06. But maybe 7.62x54r would be better LOL.

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Bravo

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: 30-06 Springfield

You get get bullet weights as light as 95gr (accelerator sabot rounds), to as heavy as 220gr. It will take everything in North America, and there is literally a load designed for everything from 30 lb animals to 1000+ lb animals.

It's 55 grain, not 95. You can cram 240 grain in the .30-06. there used to be a 250 grain bullet available. The .30-06 is versatile. That's for sure.

[Phil Lozano]

Not picking on you guys, these responses just happen to be the ones I will reply to.

Originally Posted by forgunsandgame

My 30-06... Because it has already killed everything from wood chucks to moose.

If you have killed everything from wood chucks to Moose, sounds like you hunt quite a bit. Good for you. We are all hunters and that is what we do, congrats on all your hunts !

Personally, for all North American game, I feel the 06' is a bit lacking in power. See below:

Originally Posted by Brother Bob

You can cram 240 grain in the .30-06. there used to be a 250 grain bullet available. The .30-06 is versatile. That's for sure.

True, it is versatile, if (IMO) you are not hunting all N.A. game.

I have seen many, many 06''s shot at game animals (I even own 2 - 06's) and will say . . . . . . . . . . . . . . they will kill animals.

Loaded with anything more than a 200 grain bullet, the "magic" starts to fade off the 30 06' rapidly. As I said, it will kill game, but it is just adequate (see definition below) for all N.A. game. And I mean adequate as in waiting for the perfect broadside shot. If you consider bad angle shots, it is not adequate for all N.A. game animals, IMO.

True, you can kill them with a 06', with bad angle shots, but there is a good chance you will track them further that you would had you used a larger diameter bullet, with more power.

OK, hold your horses now, and hear me out . . . . . see if this makes any sense . . . . . . . . . . . . I do quite a bit of shooting in my job and have a pretty fair amount of experience in shooting and observations of animals being shot. You cannot always get the perfect broadside shot. So, you plan for the worst and hope for the best when hunting. If you cannot always get a broadside shot, you should know how to place bad angle shots.

I find the quartering away shot a very good shot at putting the animal on the ground in short order !

Not the easiest shot, but a great shot on game and I would encourage everyone to study it and use it. Why ? You get both lungs and 1 shoulder.

Very tough on a critter to run very far on 3 legs, and no lungs. And if the animal is not down right there, it will at least stumble, allowing you time to get in another shot (generally).

Now the quartering away shot is a bad angle shot. If the cartridge I am using will not go through to the "off side" shoulder, I need a more powerful cartridge, end of discussion.

I must break the off side shoulder after penetrating the rear to middle section of the "on side" lung, pass through the chest cavity, through the off side lung and into the off side shoulder. It is very effective at closing the story and putting the animal on the ground.

I assume everyone here can shoot 175 yards or so. With that being the hypothetical distance, do you think an 06' will penetrate on a bad angle shot cross wise/ways and into the off shoulder of an Elk ? A Moose ? A Bear ?

I used to guide for Elk in Colorado (before Tanzania) and we killed a ton of Elk. Of the ones we did not recover, many were bad angle shots (some were just plain bad shots as well) with some of the "adequate" cartridges mentioned in this thread.

Much of the reason I advocate the use of larger diameter cartridges is, every hunt has a finite amount of time !

Are you willing to pass up the 6x6 Elk or a huge Brownie on the last of the hunt because he is quartering away ?

As I have said here before, because you have 4 or 5 rifles, that does not mean they are adequate for every task at hand or hunt. Hell ! I have 10+ rifles and there is only one of them I would take if going after Brown Bear ! A 458 Lott and it is not the best choice for Brown Bear ! Powerful enough, yes. Versatile enough (distance wise) ? Maybe. But I don't want to hunt with a "maybe". I want something well suited for the animal I am hunting. A 270 will kill a Brown Bear, but would I choose to take a 270 on a $18k Brownie hunt ? I don't think so. I would choose something else. Something a bit more suitable to the game hunted I think. Something that will anchor the animal on a bad angle shot.

As I relayed, I love my 7mm Mag. and have shot some animals that were way "out of it's class" power wise with it. Does not mean it is an adequate cartridge for that animal. Because I shot a Buffalo behind the ear and killed it, does not make it a Buffalo cartridge/gun. The main factor in that was, I did not have to shoot that day. I waited until everything was right. Two days before, things were NOT right and I didn't shoot.

A client I had in Tanzania said something to me that I never forgot (he was on his 21st. safari, so had a fair bit of knowledge about hunting. . . . . and brought a 338 Win. Mag.) ~

When we spoke of cartridges he said " I want to spend my time hunting . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . not tracking wounded animals. If you think I did not hit the animal well, you shoot him also".

As it turned out, I did not have to put another shot into any of his animals, which was a good thing for me.

The 25 06', 270, 7x57, 284, 7mm, 30 06', 300 Mag's are all good cartridges !

However, they are good for specific things and IMO, not all things.

----- ----- ----- ----- -----

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
ad·e·quate Audio Help /ˈædɪkwɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ad-i-kwit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. as much or as good as necessary for some requirement or purpose; fully sufficient, suitable, or fit (often fol. by to or for): This car is adequate to our needs. adequate food for fifty people.
2. barely sufficient or suitable: Being adequate is not good enough.
3. Law. reasonably sufficient for starting legal action: adequate grounds.

Best,

[Magnumsrule]

Well i came to this thread late, but i would choose a 300 or 338 win mag. Obvious reasons would be power and good trajectory. Also the relative availability of bullets, ammo, and rifles. personally i could care less about a 30-06, but thats just me. And an excellent reply from Phil as always lol.

[Billyz]

30/06 if i had to choose. prefer the .308

[tbonecpk]

I would still choose the .30-06 for the sole purpose of availability of ammo and on a side bar it's the chambered round for my Garand but anyway lol

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by Magnumsrule

And an excellent reply from Phil as always lol.

Wadda ya mean . . . . . lol ? I wasn't trying to be funny . . . . . . . lol !
(now I am !)

Best,

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

Wadda ya mean . . . . . lol ? I wasn't trying to be funny . . . . . . . lol !
(now I am !)

Best,

It was about time we saw you laugh!...........Phil, as far as the .30-06 goes, I agree with you. Once you go above 180 grains, you probably need to move up a caliber. I picked the .338 Winmag, but for polar bear and brown bear, I'd feel better with my .375 H&H.

[turner]

Originally Posted by tbonecpk

I would still choose the .30-06 for the sole purpose of availability of ammo and on a side bar it's the chambered round for my Garand but anyway lol

I was wondering if you'd sen the new Garand custom built for a near .458 mag round. Quite the dangerous game gun!

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

Not picking on you guys, these responses just happen to be the ones I will reply to.


If you have killed everything from wood chucks to Moose, sounds like you hunt quite a bit. Good for you. We are all hunters and that is what we do, congrats on all your hunts !

Personally, for all North American game, I feel the 06' is a bit lacking in power. See below:




True, it is versatile, if (IMO) you are not hunting all N.A. game.

I have seen many, many 06''s shot at game animals (I even own 2 - 06's) and will say . . . . . . . . . . . . . . they will kill animals.

Loaded with anything more than a 200 grain bullet, the "magic" starts to fade off the 30 06' rapidly. As I said, it will kill game, but it is just adequate (see definition below) for all N.A. game. And I mean adequate as in waiting for the perfect broadside shot. If you consider bad angle shots, it is not adequate for all N.A. game animals, IMO.

True, you can kill them with a 06', with bad angle shots, but there is a good chance you will track them further that you would had you used a larger diameter bullet, with more power.

OK, hold your horses now, and hear me out . . . . . see if this makes any sense . . . . . . . . . . . . I do quite a bit of shooting in my job and have a pretty fair amount of experience in shooting and observations of animals being shot. You cannot always get the perfect broadside shot. So, you plan for the worst and hope for the best when hunting. If you cannot always get a broadside shot, you should know how to place bad angle shots.

I find the quartering away shot a very good shot at putting the animal on the ground in short order !

Not the easiest shot, but a great shot on game and I would encourage everyone to study it and use it. Why ? You get both lungs and 1 shoulder.

Very tough on a critter to run very far on 3 legs, and no lungs. And if the animal is not down right there, it will at least stumble, allowing you time to get in another shot (generally).

Now the quartering away shot is a bad angle shot. If the cartridge I am using will not go through to the "off side" shoulder, I need a more powerful cartridge, end of discussion.

I must break the off side shoulder after penetrating the rear to middle section of the "on side" lung, pass through the chest cavity, through the off side lung and into the off side shoulder. It is very effective at closing the story and putting the animal on the ground.

I assume everyone here can shoot 175 yards or so. With that being the hypothetical distance, do you think an 06' will penetrate on a bad angle shot cross wise/ways and into the off shoulder of an Elk ? A Moose ? A Bear ?

I used to guide for Elk in Colorado (before Tanzania) and we killed a ton of Elk. Of the ones we did not recover, many were bad angle shots (some were just plain bad shots as well) with some of the "adequate" cartridges mentioned in this thread.

Much of the reason I advocate the use of larger diameter cartridges is, every hunt has a finite amount of time !

Are you willing to pass up the 6x6 Elk or a huge Brownie on the last of the hunt because he is quartering away ?

As I have said here before, because you have 4 or 5 rifles, that does not mean they are adequate for every task at hand or hunt. Hell ! I have 10+ rifles and there is only one of them I would take if going after Brown Bear ! A 458 Lott and it is not the best choice for Brown Bear ! Powerful enough, yes. Versatile enough (distance wise) ? Maybe. But I don't want to hunt with a "maybe". I want something well suited for the animal I am hunting. A 270 will kill a Brown Bear, but would I choose to take a 270 on a $18k Brownie hunt ? I don't think so. I would choose something else. Something a bit more suitable to the game hunted I think. Something that will anchor the animal on a bad angle shot.

As I relayed, I love my 7mm Mag. and have shot some animals that were way "out of it's class" power wise with it. Does not mean it is an adequate cartridge for that animal. Because I shot a Buffalo behind the ear and killed it, does not make it a Buffalo cartridge/gun. The main factor in that was, I did not have to shoot that day. I waited until everything was right. Two days before, things were NOT right and I didn't shoot.

A client I had in Tanzania said something to me that I never forgot (he was on his 21st. safari, so had a fair bit of knowledge about hunting. . . . . and brought a 338 Win. Mag.) ~

When we spoke of cartridges he said " I want to spend my time hunting . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . not tracking wounded animals. If you think I did not hit the animal well, you shoot him also".

As it turned out, I did not have to put another shot into any of his animals, which was a good thing for me.

The 25 06', 270, 7x57, 284, 7mm, 30 06', 300 Mag's are all good cartridges !

However, they are good for specific things and IMO, not all things.

----- ----- ----- ----- -----

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
ad·e·quate Audio Help /ˈædɪkwɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ad-i-kwit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. as much or as good as necessary for some requirement or purpose; fully sufficient, suitable, or fit (often fol. by to or for): This car is adequate to our needs. adequate food for fifty people.
2. barely sufficient or suitable: Being adequate is not good enough.
3. Law. reasonably sufficient for starting legal action: adequate grounds.

Best,

Phil, You have to know I repect your opinion VERY much and consider your experience to be near ultimate. I would, however think your consideration of penetration of an '06 220gr bullet at 2500 FPS and shown in tests to equal .338WM performance to be a tad pessimistic. If we talk ranges limited to what most shoot; at 100-200 than this L O N G .30 cal bullet with a .331 SD should be able to penetrate very well. Granted, I'd prefer bigger than .30 cal for onery animals, but I'd still feel pretty fine as an all-around deal. I do repect the .338WM and it's fans here, but think, quite honestly, that a .338/06 is a better choice for all-around caliber and think if one actually looks at what the .338 A-squre actually will do with a 250gr load, it's DA*N close to the mag. Simply my opinion.

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

Not picking on you guys, these responses just happen to be the ones I will reply to.


If you have killed everything from wood chucks to Moose, sounds like you hunt quite a bit. Good for you. We are all hunters and that is what we do, congrats on all your hunts !

Personally, for all North American game, I feel the 06' is a bit lacking in power. See below:




True, it is versatile, if (IMO) you are not hunting all N.A. game.

I have seen many, many 06''s shot at game animals (I even own 2 - 06's) and will say . . . . . . . . . . . . . . they will kill animals.

Loaded with anything more than a 200 grain bullet, the "magic" starts to fade off the 30 06' rapidly. As I said, it will kill game, but it is just adequate (see definition below) for all N.A. game. And I mean adequate as in waiting for the perfect broadside shot. If you consider bad angle shots, it is not adequate for all N.A. game animals, IMO.

True, you can kill them with a 06', with bad angle shots, but there is a good chance you will track them further that you would had you used a larger diameter bullet, with more power.

OK, hold your horses now, and hear me out . . . . . see if this makes any sense . . . . . . . . . . . . I do quite a bit of shooting in my job and have a pretty fair amount of experience in shooting and observations of animals being shot. You cannot always get the perfect broadside shot. So, you plan for the worst and hope for the best when hunting. If you cannot always get a broadside shot, you should know how to place bad angle shots.

I find the quartering away shot a very good shot at putting the animal on the ground in short order !

Not the easiest shot, but a great shot on game and I would encourage everyone to study it and use it. Why ? You get both lungs and 1 shoulder.

Very tough on a critter to run very far on 3 legs, and no lungs. And if the animal is not down right there, it will at least stumble, allowing you time to get in another shot (generally).

Now the quartering away shot is a bad angle shot. If the cartridge I am using will not go through to the "off side" shoulder, I need a more powerful cartridge, end of discussion.

I must break the off side shoulder after penetrating the rear to middle section of the "on side" lung, pass through the chest cavity, through the off side lung and into the off side shoulder. It is very effective at closing the story and putting the animal on the ground.

I assume everyone here can shoot 175 yards or so. With that being the hypothetical distance, do you think an 06' will penetrate on a bad angle shot cross wise/ways and into the off shoulder of an Elk ? A Moose ? A Bear ?

I used to guide for Elk in Colorado (before Tanzania) and we killed a ton of Elk. Of the ones we did not recover, many were bad angle shots (some were just plain bad shots as well) with some of the "adequate" cartridges mentioned in this thread.

Much of the reason I advocate the use of larger diameter cartridges is, every hunt has a finite amount of time !

Are you willing to pass up the 6x6 Elk or a huge Brownie on the last of the hunt because he is quartering away ?

As I have said here before, because you have 4 or 5 rifles, that does not mean they are adequate for every task at hand or hunt. Hell ! I have 10+ rifles and there is only one of them I would take if going after Brown Bear ! A 458 Lott and it is not the best choice for Brown Bear ! Powerful enough, yes. Versatile enough (distance wise) ? Maybe. But I don't want to hunt with a "maybe". I want something well suited for the animal I am hunting. A 270 will kill a Brown Bear, but would I choose to take a 270 on a $18k Brownie hunt ? I don't think so. I would choose something else. Something a bit more suitable to the game hunted I think. Something that will anchor the animal on a bad angle shot.

As I relayed, I love my 7mm Mag. and have shot some animals that were way "out of it's class" power wise with it. Does not mean it is an adequate cartridge for that animal. Because I shot a Buffalo behind the ear and killed it, does not make it a Buffalo cartridge/gun. The main factor in that was, I did not have to shoot that day. I waited until everything was right. Two days before, things were NOT right and I didn't shoot.

A client I had in Tanzania said something to me that I never forgot (he was on his 21st. safari, so had a fair bit of knowledge about hunting. . . . . and brought a 338 Win. Mag.) ~

When we spoke of cartridges he said " I want to spend my time hunting . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . not tracking wounded animals. If you think I did not hit the animal well, you shoot him also".

As it turned out, I did not have to put another shot into any of his animals, which was a good thing for me.

The 25 06', 270, 7x57, 284, 7mm, 30 06', 300 Mag's are all good cartridges !

However, they are good for specific things and IMO, not all things.

----- ----- ----- ----- -----

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
ad·e·quate Audio Help /ˈædɪkwɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ad-i-kwit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. as much or as good as necessary for some requirement or purpose; fully sufficient, suitable, or fit (often fol. by to or for): This car is adequate to our needs. adequate food for fifty people.
2. barely sufficient or suitable: Being adequate is not good enough.
3. Law. reasonably sufficient for starting legal action: adequate grounds.

Best,

Phil, You have to know I repect your opinion VERY much and consider your experience to be near ultimate. I would, however think your consideration of penetration of an '06 220gr bullet at 2500 FPS and shown in tests to equal .338WM performance to be a tad pessimistic. If we talk ranges limited to what most shoot; at 100-200 than this L O N G .30 cal bullet with a .331 SD should be able to penetrate very well. Granted, I'd prefer bigger than .30 cal for onery animals, but I'd still feel pretty fine as an all-around deal. I do repect the .338WM and it's fans here, but think, quite honestly, that a .338/06 is a better choice for all-around caliber and think if one actually looks at what the .338 A-squre actually will do with a 250gr load, it's DA*N close to the mag. Simply my opinion.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by turner

Phil, You have to know I repect your opinion VERY much and consider your experience to be near ultimate. I would, however think your consideration of penetration of an '06 220gr bullet at 2500 FPS and shown in tests to equal .338WM performance to be a tad pessimistic. If we talk ranges limited to what most shoot; at 100-200 than this L O N G .30 cal bullet with a .331 SD should be able to penetrate very well. Granted, I'd prefer bigger than .30 cal for onery animals, but I'd still feel pretty fine as an all-around deal. I do repect the .338WM and it's fans here, but think, quite honestly, that a .338/06 is a better choice for all-around caliber and think if one actually looks at what the .338 A-squre actually will do with a 250gr load, it's DA*N close to the mag. Simply my opinion.

Perhaps you have a different loading reloading manual than I do. But since you mention the 338 A Square, I will quote their manual in comparison to my Sierra manual.


A Square - 30 06' with a 180 grain bullet (they don't list anything larger) is 2841 fps. and a Max. load (24" barrel).

Sierra - Of 14 powders listed, 2 will do 2800 fps and both are Max. loads
Of the 14 powders 2 will do 2700 fps, with 7 other powders listed as Max. loads,

The one load for a 30 06' in the Sierra manual with a 220 grain bullet, 3 powders will do 2500 fps with Max. loads. 7 loads will do 2400 fps with 4 loads listed as Max. loads.

I doubt every rifle will shoot 220 grain bullets from a 30 06' at the 2500 fps you mention as these loads were shot with a 26" barrel. And most all 06's will have a 24" or shorter barrel.



On to the 338's -

A Square Manual and 338/A2 (24" barrel)
Max. load = 2524 fps with a 250 grain bullet
And another powder listed at 2527 fps.(assume it's Max.)
3 other powders list 2200 to 2400 fps


A Square - 338 Winnie
24" barrel - 250 grain bullet @ 2807 Max. load - 1 other powder at 2803 fps (does not say it's a Max. load, but I would think it is).
3 other powders listed at 2500 - 2700 fps.

Sierra manual (24" barrel) - 9 powders listed from 2500 - 2700 fps.
No listing for the A2.

Based on what I have just read, I would say the difference in the 338's would be quite noticeable. The Winnie would shoot much flatter for sure.

As far as the 30 06' vs the 338 Win Mag., there is no reason to debate which is more effective at 200 yards and beyond.

Do the math below and then tell me which cartridge is the most appropriate to anchor large game on the spot. Or use the formula that you judge other cartridges by and let me know.

Thanks.

----- ----- ------

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano View Post
Something to consider (when talking about bullet ballistics/performance) is Penetration Index (P.I.).

The easy way to calculate P.I.;

Example for a 416 ~

PI = 124.2 * (vel/2400)^2 * (wt./400)^2 / (dia./.416)^4

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

For the 450 N.E. and the 470 N.E. below.

For the 480 gr. bullet at 2150 fps, PI = 105.5

For the 470 NE, 2150 fps, 500 gr., PI= 92.2

Like most formulas, it likes velocity.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

Forgot to include comment for "Shock Power Index" (SPI).

Which is calculating the kinetic energy, by the cross sectional area of the bullet.

X SA =pie x R2

Basically, this is how hard of a blow the bullet gives when striking the animal.

Penetration of some large bores (over 50 cal.) seem to lack penetration, and at the same time have a large SPI.

Examples I have seen ~ If a brain shot is missed on an Elephant with a 375 H&H, the Ele will run off without much visual effect of the bullet strike.

However, the same shot with say a 600 N.E. (not nearly the highest on the penetration Index), you can visually see the effect of the bullet impact as it stuns and disorients the Elephant.

You may or may not be able to relate to this example, but think about it a bit. I think most would agree, there is a noticeable difference when shooting an Elk at 200 yards with a 338 Win. Mag than when using a 7mm Mag..

Granted, this formula, as with the kinetic energy formula being stacked in favor of velocity, is stacked in favor of bullet diameter (but velocity does play a very important role here as well, as it uses kinetic energy in part of the formula.

Personally, I think this is quite an important equation when choosing a cartridge/caliber for a specific animal.

JMO

Best,
Phil
____________________________
Professional Hunter ~ Tanzania

Stay out of sight and down wind

Originally Posted by Brother Bob

It was about time we saw you laugh!...........Phil, as far as the .30-06 goes, I agree with you. Once you go above 180 grains, you probably need to move up a caliber. I picked the .338 Winmag, but for polar bear and brown bear, I'd feel better with my .375 H&H.

BB,

I really am a quite funny guy. However, I do take hunting quite seriously.

Doing so has kept me from leaving any of my own blood in Africa for 20+ years


Your cartridge choices are darn good ones. For the Big Bears, a 375 (or a 416) is not out of line.

Best,
Phil