Should we have adopted the FAL? - Page 2

AR-tim · 12-12-2002, 09:59 PM

I basically agree with your first post. I put in a vote for the FAL, but I do respect all 3 as good rifles. I love the AR-15/M-16, but the way it was "rushed" into combat was stupid, and deadly against our boys. I feel the modern versions of those rifles(M-16) are ok, but if given the choice back then, I would take an FAL over the M-16. There was a show on the History Channel, that got into the M-16 in 'Nam. It said they wouldn't keep a round in the chamber because it would get stuck in there over night. It also said they wouldn't keep more than 16(I think) rounds in the mags, or they would wear out too fast. Those problems along with the ammo and chamber/jamming problems, I would definitely choose an M-14 or FAL for combat.

REM.303 · 01-06-2003, 12:10 AM

Guy's, I think that we are all dancing around the issue....The M-16 is basically a piece of @#@$!!! The only way it went into production/adoption is that a POLITICAL FAMILY bought 49% of the company that would produce it for the military (can you say KENNEDY?????). Now that all of that is said... The US should have stayed with a .30 Cal service round.(I cannot stand the spring going off in my ear when I have to qualify with the High-Speed 22) Somthing from HK or FN would have been the logical choice until we could get a "home-grown" design going.

FALPhil · 01-06-2003, 10:18 AM

Actually, the M16 has a few things in it's favor:

- It's a classic "mujahideen" gun. It can be assembled in about 30 minutes by inexperienced people who are good with their hands.
- It's well documented. So well, in fact, that I know at least 4 people who have machined their own receivers out of blocks of aluminum.
- I't's a great gun/cartridge combo for women and people of small stature.
- Aftermarket accessories and factory options allow for a variety of configurations.
- It is relatively cheap to build in mass quantities.
- It is inherently accurate due to the lockup system.

All that being said, I do like the RobArms, the FNC, and the Galil much better!

Quote:

Originally posted by REM.303
Guy's, I think that we are all dancing around the issue....The M-16 is basically a piece of @#@$!!!

REM.303 · 01-06-2003, 03:41 PM

Phil, the points you have made are valid...Except for one....CHEAP? I have yet to see a "cheap" one.

Your location states the "Occupied Confederacy", (Canada?)

FALPhil · 01-06-2003, 04:53 PM

Hey! I qualified "cheap" with "in mass quantities"! And I have seen some paperwork that leads me to believe that Joe Taxpayer is paying in the neighborhood of $320 apiece. John Q. Citizen is another issue.

The Confederacy was (and technically is) an association of eleven sovereign states that seceeded from the United States of America during the 1860s. I live in one of those sovereign states, which has been occupied by the US government since the War of Secession was lost.

I think that the time will come again when some of the states that make up the United States of America will want to seceed. The next time, I hope they take the smart route and fight in the courts (where the law is on their side) and not on the battlefield.

It amazes me the number of people who think that states would voluntarily join an association if they knew they would have to fight their way out of it.

MAX7.62 · 01-06-2003, 10:11 PM

1 - to HeadShot308 - ALL 7.62X51 (.308) full battle rifles (M-14, FAL, HK - etc., etc.) are a handfull in full auto. I think the 14 was always beat up unfairly about being brutal - it's da bullit not da stick!
2 - to FALphil and G3 - HI GUYS! It's been a while - I've been out of pocket for a bit without web access (NO I was not incarcerated - I know how you guys think <grinning>)
3 - you know I lean toward the FAL's but I like HK's too - basically anything in 7.62 NATO - no substitute for horsepower! I hurt a lot of feelings about my opinion of Mr Stoner's rifle so I won't say anything bad here (or good either - but there again I've never had anything good to say about the Colt space guns!?)
Simply put, a .308 will accurately place shots out to 1000 yards. Has anyone ever seen a group from a .223 at 1000 yards? Also, look at the differance between .308 and .223 as far as impact energy at any range - nuff said me thinks!

Max

jerry · 01-07-2003, 07:22 AM

There is one aspect that has been lightly touched on. I qual on the M-16 too. I'm not an ardent fan, but don't absolutely hate the thing. My question is this, When your stuck with it, how do you overcome the few doubts you may have in the back of your head? You have to figure the majority of the people using this service weapon don't know a good gun from a good whiskey. At one time, I thought to buy one and shoot it 'till I liked it 99% or so. (not when I can buy 2~3 of something else)

So, what do you do when you don't have a choice?

BTW,
I hate the "clunk/spring" sound too. It's worse to me with double hearing protection, so I wear single.

BattleRifleG3 · 01-07-2003, 01:00 PM

Hey Max7.62, glad to see you again!

REM.303 · 01-07-2003, 10:44 PM

FALPhil, I also call one of the states that flew the "Stars and Bars"
home. I also agree about the courts......but I also believe that
"Murphy" still has cards left to play. We will just have wait and see....

Jerry, if I had to....the first thing I would do is ditch the 5.56 and grab an AK, a short .308 is better than nothing.....

jerry · 01-08-2003, 06:48 AM

I hear ya REM.303,
If I had the opportunity to grab an AK in an air field defense scenerio, I may as well start swinging the M-16 like a bat. Or better yet do the honorable mechanic thing and start throwing my tools.

I don't have an AK but I like the "short 308" (I like that term) in the SKS. Albeit antiquated, the SKS dosen't seem like a bad fighting gun.

BattleRifleG3 · 01-08-2003, 11:12 AM

Instead of an AK, I have an SKS that uses AK mags. The drawback is that it's unwise to fire it as fast as you can, but I figure in a defensive scenario against people using AK mags, using a more comfortable and accurate weapon for my first shots will make several AKs available to me before I wear out my SKS. And I figure in a battlefield scenario, it doesn't matter how much you paid for it or how rare and special it is, but whether it will do what it needs to save your life.

REM.303 · 01-08-2003, 10:49 PM

BattlerifleG3, I have yet to get one of those...Will the magwell assembly fit into a "standard" SKS? I have heard about those
"Phusedo" AKM's having that sort of problem you mentioned. Drop the magwell into a real SKS(if it will fit)...You might have a winner, and worth the experment.

Jerry, do you "Crew"? if so what Bird?

BattleRifleG3 · 01-09-2003, 10:44 AM

The SKS receiver is drastically modified, as is the bolt and the front of the trigger group.
At times I've wondered if I should have gotten an AK instead, but I figure there are a lot more of them around, and prices are back down, so I'll get a chance to get one, while this model of SKS is kind of rare.
Of course a FAL, AR, and VEPR II 223 are also on my list... Oh the agony.

jerry · 01-09-2003, 03:48 PM

REM.303

E&E C-130's Presently

REM.303 · 01-09-2003, 10:43 PM

Jerry, I work the "Bones"

REM.303 · 01-09-2003, 11:04 PM

BattlerifleG3, I feel your pain....Sorry to hear about the SKS. You know, I have always wondered while they were "bullpuping" just about everything they did not do the SKS....The more I think on it, the more it appeals to me.....Hmmm....A person just might make a neat dollar desiging a bullpup kit for the SKS. I also agree with the agony, a nice IAI M1 Carbine, Webly/Fosbury pistol in .455, 1873 Martini/Enfield and a Webly MK V1 head my list.

jerry · 01-10-2003, 12:52 AM

gotchya REM.303.
that's one ECS system I'm kind of glad I haven't crossed paths with. That's a lot of Aerospacevehicle.

REM.303 · 01-13-2003, 07:09 PM

jerry is that the much talked about BS flag?

jerry · 01-13-2003, 07:17 PM

Rog "O" REM.303
Everyone should own one. I have one, of sorts that's been around the world. Big pair of red silk drawers. We raised it in the gulf and were made to take it down by the SP's because it resembled an attack condition flag for MOPP. Oh well, looked good in the tent!

REM.303 · 01-19-2003, 09:21 PM

Jerry, I have been busy, Rog"O" the BS Flag, did the same in Bahrain in 97. Gave the TCN's doing the food the "Hebie-Jebies" with a kite, 20 brake-n-shakes and a dark night. Boy what fun seeing those wogs scramble.....Got yelled at for that one....a good tale at the beer tent.

View Poll Results: What should we have done?
Kept the M14 longer.	6	33.33%
Switched to the M16 like we did.	4	22.22%
Adopted the FAL as an emergency transitional rifle.	8	44.44%
I hate FALS, they suck. So do you, BattleRifle. Get a girlfriend.	0	0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

12-12-2002, 09:59 PM	#21
AR-tim Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: WI Posts: 307	I basically agree with your first post. I put in a vote for the FAL, but I do respect all 3 as good rifles. I love the AR-15/M-16, but the way it was "rushed" into combat was stupid, and deadly against our boys. I feel the modern versions of those rifles(M-16) are ok, but if given the choice back then, I would take an FAL over the M-16. There was a show on the History Channel, that got into the M-16 in 'Nam. It said they wouldn't keep a round in the chamber because it would get stuck in there over night. It also said they wouldn't keep more than 16(I think) rounds in the mags, or they would wear out too fast. Those problems along with the ammo and chamber/jamming problems, I would definitely choose an M-14 or FAL for combat. __________________ "Unfortunately, the Army has revealed no plans to develop an air-droppable, laser-guided, self-chilling keg of beer!" From "Airborne" by Tom Clancy

01-06-2003, 12:10 AM	#22
REM.303 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 15 miles PAST the end of the earth Posts: 145	Guy's, I think that we are all dancing around the issue....The M-16 is basically a piece of @#@$!!! The only way it went into production/adoption is that a POLITICAL FAMILY bought 49% of the company that would produce it for the military (can you say KENNEDY?????). Now that all of that is said... The US should have stayed with a .30 Cal service round.(I cannot stand the spring going off in my ear when I have to qualify with the High-Speed 22) Somthing from HK or FN would have been the logical choice until we could get a "home-grown" design going. __________________ Remember, the easy path IS ALWAYS Mined...

01-06-2003, 03:41 PM	#24
REM.303 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 15 miles PAST the end of the earth Posts: 145	Phil, the points you have made are valid...Except for one....CHEAP? I have yet to see a "cheap" one. Your location states the "Occupied Confederacy", (Canada?) __________________ Remember, the easy path IS ALWAYS Mined...

01-06-2003, 10:11 PM	#26
MAX7.62 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Classified Posts: 934	1 - to HeadShot308 - ALL 7.62X51 (.308) full battle rifles (M-14, FAL, HK - etc., etc.) are a handfull in full auto. I think the 14 was always beat up unfairly about being brutal - it's da bullit not da stick! 2 - to FALphil and G3 - HI GUYS! It's been a while - I've been out of pocket for a bit without web access (NO I was not incarcerated - I know how you guys think <grinning>) 3 - you know I lean toward the FAL's but I like HK's too - basically anything in 7.62 NATO - no substitute for horsepower! I hurt a lot of feelings about my opinion of Mr Stoner's rifle so I won't say anything bad here (or good either - but there again I've never had anything good to say about the Colt space guns!?) Simply put, a .308 will accurately place shots out to 1000 yards. Has anyone ever seen a group from a .223 at 1000 yards? Also, look at the differance between .308 and .223 as far as impact energy at any range - nuff said me thinks! Max __________________ The Second Amendment, it ain't about DUCK HUNTING! I feel more like I do now that I did when I first got here!

01-06-2003, 04:53 PM	#25
FALPhil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Occupied Confederacy Posts: 241	Hey! I qualified "cheap" with "in mass quantities"! And I have seen some paperwork that leads me to believe that Joe Taxpayer is paying in the neighborhood of $320 apiece. John Q. Citizen is another issue. The Confederacy was (and technically is) an association of eleven sovereign states that seceeded from the United States of America during the 1860s. I live in one of those sovereign states, which has been occupied by the US government since the War of Secession was lost. I think that the time will come again when some of the states that make up the United States of America will want to seceed. The next time, I hope they take the smart route and fight in the courts (where the law is on their side) and not on the battlefield. It amazes me the number of people who think that states would voluntarily join an association if they knew they would have to fight their way out of it.

01-07-2003, 07:22 AM	#27
jerry Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 10,909 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 1	There is one aspect that has been lightly touched on. I qual on the M-16 too. I'm not an ardent fan, but don't absolutely hate the thing. My question is this, When your stuck with it, how do you overcome the few doubts you may have in the back of your head? You have to figure the majority of the people using this service weapon don't know a good gun from a good whiskey. At one time, I thought to buy one and shoot it 'till I liked it 99% or so. (not when I can buy 2~3 of something else) So, what do you do when you don't have a choice? BTW, I hate the "clunk/spring" sound too. It's worse to me with double hearing protection, so I wear single. __________________ I'm a down home back woods redneck

01-07-2003, 01:00 PM	#28
BattleRifleG3 Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western PA Posts: 11,402 Images: 13	Hey Max7.62, glad to see you again! __________________ Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf

01-07-2003, 10:44 PM	#29
REM.303 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 15 miles PAST the end of the earth Posts: 145	FALPhil, I also call one of the states that flew the "Stars and Bars" home. I also agree about the courts......but I also believe that "Murphy" still has cards left to play. We will just have wait and see.... Jerry, if I had to....the first thing I would do is ditch the 5.56 and grab an AK, a short .308 is better than nothing..... __________________ Remember, the easy path IS ALWAYS Mined...

01-08-2003, 06:48 AM	#30
jerry Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 10,909 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 1	I hear ya REM.303, If I had the opportunity to grab an AK in an air field defense scenerio, I may as well start swinging the M-16 like a bat. Or better yet do the honorable mechanic thing and start throwing my tools. I don't have an AK but I like the "short 308" (I like that term) in the SKS. Albeit antiquated, the SKS dosen't seem like a bad fighting gun. __________________ I'm a down home back woods redneck

01-08-2003, 11:12 AM	#31
BattleRifleG3 Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western PA Posts: 11,402 Images: 13	Instead of an AK, I have an SKS that uses AK mags. The drawback is that it's unwise to fire it as fast as you can, but I figure in a defensive scenario against people using AK mags, using a more comfortable and accurate weapon for my first shots will make several AKs available to me before I wear out my SKS. And I figure in a battlefield scenario, it doesn't matter how much you paid for it or how rare and special it is, but whether it will do what it needs to save your life. __________________ Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf

01-08-2003, 10:49 PM	#32
REM.303 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 15 miles PAST the end of the earth Posts: 145	BattlerifleG3, I have yet to get one of those...Will the magwell assembly fit into a "standard" SKS? I have heard about those "Phusedo" AKM's having that sort of problem you mentioned. Drop the magwell into a real SKS(if it will fit)...You might have a winner, and worth the experment. Jerry, do you "Crew"? if so what Bird? __________________ Remember, the easy path IS ALWAYS Mined...

01-09-2003, 10:44 AM	#33
BattleRifleG3 Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western PA Posts: 11,402 Images: 13	The SKS receiver is drastically modified, as is the bolt and the front of the trigger group. At times I've wondered if I should have gotten an AK instead, but I figure there are a lot more of them around, and prices are back down, so I'll get a chance to get one, while this model of SKS is kind of rare. Of course a FAL, AR, and VEPR II 223 are also on my list... Oh the agony. __________________ Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf

01-09-2003, 03:48 PM	#34
jerry Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 10,909 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 1	REM.303 E&E C-130's Presently __________________ I'm a down home back woods redneck Last edited by jerry; 01-09-2003 at 03:53 PM.

01-09-2003, 10:43 PM	#35
REM.303 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 15 miles PAST the end of the earth Posts: 145	Jerry, I work the "Bones" __________________ Remember, the easy path IS ALWAYS Mined...

01-09-2003, 11:04 PM	#36
REM.303 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 15 miles PAST the end of the earth Posts: 145	BattlerifleG3, I feel your pain....Sorry to hear about the SKS. You know, I have always wondered while they were "bullpuping" just about everything they did not do the SKS....The more I think on it, the more it appeals to me.....Hmmm....A person just might make a neat dollar desiging a bullpup kit for the SKS. I also agree with the agony, a nice IAI M1 Carbine, Webly/Fosbury pistol in .455, 1873 Martini/Enfield and a Webly MK V1 head my list. __________________ Remember, the easy path IS ALWAYS Mined...

01-10-2003, 12:52 AM	#37
jerry Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 10,909 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 1	gotchya REM.303. that's one ECS system I'm kind of glad I haven't crossed paths with. That's a lot of Aerospacevehicle. __________________ I'm a down home back woods redneck

01-13-2003, 07:09 PM	#38
REM.303 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 15 miles PAST the end of the earth Posts: 145	jerry is that the much talked about BS flag? __________________ Remember, the easy path IS ALWAYS Mined...

01-13-2003, 07:17 PM	#39
jerry Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 10,909 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 1	Rog "O" REM.303 Everyone should own one. I have one, of sorts that's been around the world. Big pair of red silk drawers. We raised it in the gulf and were made to take it down by the SP's because it resembled an attack condition flag for MOPP. Oh well, looked good in the tent! __________________ I'm a down home back woods redneck

01-19-2003, 09:21 PM	#40
REM.303 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 15 miles PAST the end of the earth Posts: 145	Jerry, I have been busy, Rog"O" the BS Flag, did the same in Bahrain in 97. Gave the TCN's doing the food the "Hebie-Jebies" with a kite, 20 brake-n-shakes and a dark night. Boy what fun seeing those wogs scramble.....Got yelled at for that one....a good tale at the beer tent. __________________ Remember, the easy path IS ALWAYS Mined...