Saiga-20 upgrade... bragging rights

BattleRifleG3 · 03-28-2005, 11:06 PM

Crying shame I don't have pics. Last friday I visited a friend whose son is now the proud caretaker of a Saiga 20 that I passed on. With the expiration of the ban, he was eager as imaginable to tacticalize it as much as possible. It took a while to get the stuff together and to actually get around to doing it, but it's done and I'm, well, proud. With the exception of my Saiga 308 conversion to G3 magazines, my AMD build, and my incomplete 35 Remington AKM project, this is the most serious gunsmithing I've done to date.

What we basically did was the standard FCG conversion, no biggy there. And we installed a highly modified Daewoo grip by ACE. But this guy really loved my AMD folding stock (which I wasn't using.) So we started getting drastic by removing the original rear trunion and drilling new holes for the AMD rear trunion. We also had to notch the receiver for the stock and drill a hole for the stock folding button. Had to make a trip to the hardware store where they turned out only to have brass screws in the size that we needed. So his Saiga shotty is looking mildly pimpish.

The wildest part was the piston. I don't know what those Russians used to pin the piston in, but it destroyed two titanium drill bits. How we managed to loosen the original piston and install another is going to remain our dirty little secret, ie a "kids do not try this at home, at school, on the job, or ever" kind of thing. But we managed to get it out and install a custom piston turned by a fellow at gunco.net.

So now this young fellow has a Saiga 20ga tactical shotgun, which is still hunting legal (and not too bad at it at all) as long as the mag is blocked to 3rd. Some day I'll have to share pics, cause this piece of work in most ways is bragging rights. If you like the AMD folder and like Saiga shotguns, the appeal should be self explanatory.

TULAver · 03-29-2005, 07:40 AM

"The wildest part was the piston. I don't know what those Russians used to pin the piston in, but it destroyed two titanium drill bits."

Gotta remember how soft Ti is in comparison to good steel. In general titanium + steel in a machining effort = bad news. Titanium will eat steel milling equipment up, and vice versa. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but then metallurgy and machining are just a hobby for me.

Now aluminum, you can machine to hell with Titanium tools, and it cuts it like butter. But for steel, you need steel. Just seems to be the way it is.

Those titanium pieces is 'spensive boy, and pardon me for saying, but being a student and all, I doubt you can rightfully afford to replace them every time they wear out. We got to save money WHEREVER we possibly can. Get some carbide bits.

BattleRifleG3 · 03-29-2005, 11:49 AM

Then the guy at Busy Beaver was not only gay, but gave terrible advice. He insisted that titanium was the strongest possible, stronger than carbide. I'm not too familiar with titanium myself so I took his word for it. Since Russia is full of titanium, I wonder if they just grabbed a piece of titanium for the pin if it was handy.

TULAver · 03-30-2005, 08:57 AM

No no no, titanium is stronger ONLY in relation to the amount of material you can use at the same weight as a smaller piece of steel. The best titanium alloys are still quite a bit softer than good steel.

The one and ONLY advantage that you're gonna get from a Ti drill bit is the resistance to heat. Working softer stuff like aluminum, you never have to worry about heating the bit up and losing the temper, because titanium doesn't TAKE a temper and it's so much more heat resistant on top of it.

Also, titanium won't take or hold a halfway decent edge. I've thrown away a couple hundred dollars on those absolutely useless titanium knives, and about the only thing they're good for, is for applications where, for whatever reason, steel is NOT an option.

The guy told you Titanium was the strongest because it's !!!!ed expensive stuff, and there's a lot of hype and general misinformation about the material.

BattleRifleG3 · 03-30-2005, 02:50 PM

Actually it wasn't the most expensive bit. The price was fine in fact. But apparently the friggin wrong bit.

Rugged · 03-30-2005, 04:50 PM

rofl.

BRG3 why would you purchase drill bits from a gay guy?

gunssb · 03-30-2005, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rugged

rofl.

BRG3 why would you purchase drill bits from a gay guy?

I don't think he meant it in a sexual way. Perhaps a literal way (as in happy). If he did, we don't want to know how he found out :insane:

Rugged · 03-30-2005, 05:08 PM

it's the advanced BRG3 gaydar. He can detect a flamer at 2200 meters.

gunssb · 03-30-2005, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rugged

it's the advanced BRG3 gaydar. He can detect a flamer at 2200 meters.

careful he might charge you with that musket-shotgun that he wants to build - I'd like to see that contraption built just for shits & giggles

Rugged · 03-30-2005, 05:29 PM

wasn't it an autoloading belt fed musket-shotgun sniper rifle? with advanced gaydar?

wow, i'm getting wacky. time to go home.

BattleRifleG3 · 03-30-2005, 06:47 PM

I only know that the guy was gay because he's a wee little bit flaming, and the kids who came with me said that guy hits on their dad at times. He was a little too eager to stick around and talk as I was making my choice. There's friendly, and then there's gay, and apprently if I stuck around longer it would have become more obvious.

As far as any choice I had, I'm sure there'll be some new anti-discrimination law saying not only must they hire such folks, but I have to buy from them.
It's funny, though, you guys didn't think there was anything wrong with me when I was talking about hanging out with lesbians...

gunssb · 03-30-2005, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BattleRifleG3

you guys didn't think there was anything wrong with me when I was talking about hanging out with lesbians...

that's different - we're sexist jerks

I'm still looking for a lesbian friend :nod:

TULAver · 03-31-2005, 01:57 AM

If the price was right then the price was right, can't fault you there. Live and learn. So much trial and error in DIY work. If it went through 2 titanium bits though, i really can't guarantee that a single carbide would have done the job perfectly. Maybe they did use a piece of titanium in there, or really well hardened steel. If it was that tough, makes me wonder if it wasn't too brittle for the application.

Shame that you went through two of them though, they really are great for aluminum and usually good for mild to soft steel, and they are a wonder on wood. I have a few myself that work on mild sheet steel. Worn one out drilling tang holes in a little shortsword I was making out of an old S10 leafspring, which was probably my fault somehow, but I've been hesitant to use them on anything besides aluminum and wood since. Great for wood, especially if you got to get in a small place at an angle where only hand tools will work. The weight factor can really play in even at such a small size, when you're trying to hand drill a hole in a 4x4 with your back bent three different ways and only one hand free. Lessens fatigue

I have to ask, how DID you finally find a workaround?

Troy · 03-31-2005, 02:18 AM

Dont have much use for the Titanium bits myself. Broke and dulled too many. I find the regular steel bits work fine. I am curious about those cobalt bits i see around. Are they worth the hype or just a fad?

Troy · 03-31-2005, 04:01 AM

Lesbians? Someone mention lesbians? I love lesbians.

03-28-2005, 11:06 PM	#1
BattleRifleG3 Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western PA Posts: 11,401 Images: 13	Saiga-20 upgrade... bragging rights Crying shame I don't have pics. Last friday I visited a friend whose son is now the proud caretaker of a Saiga 20 that I passed on. With the expiration of the ban, he was eager as imaginable to tacticalize it as much as possible. It took a while to get the stuff together and to actually get around to doing it, but it's done and I'm, well, proud. With the exception of my Saiga 308 conversion to G3 magazines, my AMD build, and my incomplete 35 Remington AKM project, this is the most serious gunsmithing I've done to date. What we basically did was the standard FCG conversion, no biggy there. And we installed a highly modified Daewoo grip by ACE. But this guy really loved my AMD folding stock (which I wasn't using.) So we started getting drastic by removing the original rear trunion and drilling new holes for the AMD rear trunion. We also had to notch the receiver for the stock and drill a hole for the stock folding button. Had to make a trip to the hardware store where they turned out only to have brass screws in the size that we needed. So his Saiga shotty is looking mildly pimpish. The wildest part was the piston. I don't know what those Russians used to pin the piston in, but it destroyed two titanium drill bits. How we managed to loosen the original piston and install another is going to remain our dirty little secret, ie a "kids do not try this at home, at school, on the job, or ever" kind of thing. But we managed to get it out and install a custom piston turned by a fellow at gunco.net. So now this young fellow has a Saiga 20ga tactical shotgun, which is still hunting legal (and not too bad at it at all) as long as the mag is blocked to 3rd. Some day I'll have to share pics, cause this piece of work in most ways is bragging rights. If you like the AMD folder and like Saiga shotguns, the appeal should be self explanatory. __________________ Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf

03-29-2005, 07:40 AM	#2
TULAver Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 372	"The wildest part was the piston. I don't know what those Russians used to pin the piston in, but it destroyed two titanium drill bits." Gotta remember how soft Ti is in comparison to good steel. In general titanium + steel in a machining effort = bad news. Titanium will eat steel milling equipment up, and vice versa. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but then metallurgy and machining are just a hobby for me. Now aluminum, you can machine to hell with Titanium tools, and it cuts it like butter. But for steel, you need steel. Just seems to be the way it is. Those titanium pieces is 'spensive boy, and pardon me for saying, but being a student and all, I doubt you can rightfully afford to replace them every time they wear out. We got to save money WHEREVER we possibly can. Get some carbide bits. __________________ It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that any people you meet from time to time are merely the product of a deranged imagination.

03-29-2005, 11:49 AM	#3
BattleRifleG3 Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western PA Posts: 11,401 Images: 13	Then the guy at Busy Beaver was not only gay, but gave terrible advice. He insisted that titanium was the strongest possible, stronger than carbide. I'm not too familiar with titanium myself so I took his word for it. Since Russia is full of titanium, I wonder if they just grabbed a piece of titanium for the pin if it was handy. __________________ Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf

03-30-2005, 08:57 AM	#4
TULAver Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 372	No no no, titanium is stronger ONLY in relation to the amount of material you can use at the same weight as a smaller piece of steel. The best titanium alloys are still quite a bit softer than good steel. The one and ONLY advantage that you're gonna get from a Ti drill bit is the resistance to heat. Working softer stuff like aluminum, you never have to worry about heating the bit up and losing the temper, because titanium doesn't TAKE a temper and it's so much more heat resistant on top of it. Also, titanium won't take or hold a halfway decent edge. I've thrown away a couple hundred dollars on those absolutely useless titanium knives, and about the only thing they're good for, is for applications where, for whatever reason, steel is NOT an option. The guy told you Titanium was the strongest because it's !!!!ed expensive stuff, and there's a lot of hype and general misinformation about the material. __________________ It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that any people you meet from time to time are merely the product of a deranged imagination.

03-30-2005, 02:50 PM	#5
BattleRifleG3 Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western PA Posts: 11,401 Images: 13	Actually it wasn't the most expensive bit. The price was fine in fact. But apparently the friggin wrong bit. __________________ Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf

03-30-2005, 04:50 PM	#6
Rugged Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 392	rofl. BRG3 why would you purchase drill bits from a gay guy? __________________ http://www.thedrunken.net/images/mis...rderpatrol.jpg

03-30-2005, 05:08 PM	#8
Rugged Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 392	it's the advanced BRG3 gaydar. He can detect a flamer at 2200 meters. __________________ http://www.thedrunken.net/images/mis...rderpatrol.jpg

03-30-2005, 05:29 PM	#10
Rugged Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 392	wasn't it an autoloading belt fed musket-shotgun sniper rifle? with advanced gaydar? wow, i'm getting wacky. time to go home. __________________ http://www.thedrunken.net/images/mis...rderpatrol.jpg

03-30-2005, 06:47 PM	#11
BattleRifleG3 Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western PA Posts: 11,401 Images: 13	I only know that the guy was gay because he's a wee little bit flaming, and the kids who came with me said that guy hits on their dad at times. He was a little too eager to stick around and talk as I was making my choice. There's friendly, and then there's gay, and apprently if I stuck around longer it would have become more obvious. As far as any choice I had, I'm sure there'll be some new anti-discrimination law saying not only must they hire such folks, but I have to buy from them. It's funny, though, you guys didn't think there was anything wrong with me when I was talking about hanging out with lesbians... __________________ Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf

03-31-2005, 01:57 AM	#13
TULAver Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 372	If the price was right then the price was right, can't fault you there. Live and learn. So much trial and error in DIY work. If it went through 2 titanium bits though, i really can't guarantee that a single carbide would have done the job perfectly. Maybe they did use a piece of titanium in there, or really well hardened steel. If it was that tough, makes me wonder if it wasn't too brittle for the application. Shame that you went through two of them though, they really are great for aluminum and usually good for mild to soft steel, and they are a wonder on wood. I have a few myself that work on mild sheet steel. Worn one out drilling tang holes in a little shortsword I was making out of an old S10 leafspring, which was probably my fault somehow, but I've been hesitant to use them on anything besides aluminum and wood since. Great for wood, especially if you got to get in a small place at an angle where only hand tools will work. The weight factor can really play in even at such a small size, when you're trying to hand drill a hole in a 4x4 with your back bent three different ways and only one hand free. Lessens fatigue I have to ask, how DID you finally find a workaround? __________________ It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that any people you meet from time to time are merely the product of a deranged imagination.

03-31-2005, 02:18 AM	#14
Troy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Manitoba Canada Posts: 2,501 Images: 3	Dont have much use for the Titanium bits myself. Broke and dulled too many. I find the regular steel bits work fine. I am curious about those cobalt bits i see around. Are they worth the hype or just a fad?

03-31-2005, 04:01 AM	#15
Troy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Manitoba Canada Posts: 2,501 Images: 3	Lesbians? Someone mention lesbians? I love lesbians.