.45acp Defensive ammo?

Pumpkinheaver · 05-08-2002, 08:22 PM

I have a Kimber .45 that I keep for home defence. I keep it loaded with Federal 165gr hydrashocks or 185gr win silvertips. I have two questions.

1. What do you all think of these two loads?
2. What other loads would you recomend and why?

colt45 · 05-08-2002, 08:57 PM

I shoot them both.
I think the winchester groups better.
I also use the speer gold dot by federal.
If your only useing it for home or self defence Glazer makes a fragmented roung you might want to try.
I had problems in the feed ramp with these in my Colt combat commander but they may feed just fine in your kimber.

jerry · 05-08-2002, 09:17 PM

I think the fed hyd shock has the best "documented" street record. I personally miss the black tallon. As mentioned speer has a good bullet, remington golden saber, eldorado, win silvertips, all good. make sure your piece likes 'em and you can shoot them well. consider your potential angles of fire and look for over penetration issues.

oneastrix · 05-09-2002, 07:57 AM

I prefer Speer Golddot 200gr + P, but your current choices are just fine. It's all about shot placement. My Kimber eats them perfectly. I was fortunate enough to witness some ballistic gelltin tests done at a firearms instructors school. They obviously believed in the Speer Gold Dot round. Expansion was ideal, and the rounds put the brakes on at a reasonable depth of penetration. They tested several different round and brands out of several different pistols. It was extremely neat to see.

In law enforcement, we are constantly worried about over penetration. Departments either favor the "slow and heavy" or the "fast and light." I've found that the ,180 gr .40SW for instance, hardly expands at all out of a four inch barrel. A 155gr .40SW expands beautifully out of the same gun. VELOCITY = EXPANSION. RAPID EXPANSION= NO OVER PENETRATION (provided you place the shot well).

I think I rambled on to much. Hit something with a .45ACP, and you will ruin it's day!

Mike southers · 05-23-2002, 09:46 AM

I must be an old school .45 shooter. When I think of 185 grain bulets, I am reminded of the semi wadcutter "collar buttons". Not a good defensive choice.
I have some 200 grain Federal HPs for the house. Like the BT's, these will expand nastily. Shouldn't over penetrate.

DFBonnett · 05-25-2002, 05:39 PM

I use HydraShoks but 230 gr. They are reputed to make a big deep hole.

Rock · 05-28-2002, 12:02 AM

The 230gr HydraShok will put a end to the argument!

FEG · 06-03-2002, 05:48 PM

Most genuine ballisticians agree with the IWBA, claiming that a jacketed hollow point must be travelling above the speed of sound in order to reliably expand in human tissue. This is not to say expansion NEVER occurs at subsonic velocities, but it is a fairly low percentage. Remember, no legitimate scientist has EVER claimed that balistic gelatin gives any direct indication of a particular load's performance in living tissue. (Too bad, Marshall and Sanow don't seem to understand this...)

My point: The best loads in .45 are either very heavy or very light. The "in between" loads seem to be the worst of both worlds. A 200 gr bullet is unlikely to expand, due to its slower velocity, but it still isn't the 230 gr monster.

The 185gr JHPs are often supersonic, and they have a much higher percentage for success (expansion) than heavier, slower hollowpoints. The Winchester Silvertips are consistently very accurate in this bullet weight.

Any respectable 230 gr load is still, in the final analysis, an awfully big projectile: unsafe at any speed! I like the Speer Gold Dot HP 230 gr +P law enforcement over-run ammo. It is too slow to reliably expand (like any 230 gr load I have ever seen), but it is the fastest 230 gr load on the market (based on chronograph data, not manufacturers' data). In other words, this is an awfully heavy bullet at @960 fps, no matter what happens inside the body.

Although I would advise against carrying handloaded ammo for self-defense, the best defensive loads in .45 have proven to be a 230 gr bullet with some exposed lead. Now that semi-jacketed HPs are unavailable, this means a lead semi-wad cutter is a pretty attractive option. A LSWC gives some penetration due to the full caliber cutting shoulder, and the exposed lead virtually guarantees some upset. The semi-JHPs were definitely the best thing going. Notice that they have been taken off the market, not the largely ineffective "premium" JHPs.

Ayteeone · 11-06-2002, 11:06 AM

FEG, where are you getting your information?

Whether or not a bullet expands does not revolve around the speed of sound. It depends entirely the design and the medium it bites it into when it hits. Modern .45 HP's expand just fine at their intended ranges, and the heavier ones don't come near the speed of sound.

Having said that, my personal choice is 185 gr Silvertip. They are accurate in the many .45's I've shot them through, and flat shooting from my carbine. Every one I have recovered has expanded or at least considerably deformed. And a study several years ago showed it to be the least likely of any conventional .45 ammo to exit a normal dwelling.

FWIW I don't give much credence to the one-shot stop idea anyway, at least not at handgun power levels. With credit to Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch, "Don't expect it to work". See www.thegunzone.com for the write up on on the Miami shootout. Many hits were made on both sides, with ammo performance being right along design levels. Several hits were made that "should have been" disabling, yet those hit carried on thinking, moving, and fighting. Most recently feedback from Afganistan is indicating that even .223 doesn't reliably get the job done with one shot. (Which won't surprise some of you...)

Bottom line - find a tool that is reliable that you can get good hits with and will have with you when you need it. Then practice, practice, practice...

Pumpkinheaver · 11-07-2002, 12:32 AM

I look at it like this, if a .45 expands then it's gravy, if it doesn't then I still have a .451" projectile that is gonna do some damage.

jarcp · 11-07-2002, 04:43 AM

How about the Power-n-ball from Corbon? Anyone have any experience? Looks like an intresting idea. I just cannot believe no one has thought of it before now (now being 1 1/2 years ago)

Big Dog · 11-07-2002, 09:26 AM

I use either of two loads, depending on where I am. In-house, I keep the ol' 1911 loaded with Glaser Bluetips. The neighbors are uncomfortably close, and I don't want too much penetration. The Colt backs up the 12 gauge, anyway.
Outdoors, at the range and such, it's loaded with Federal Hydrashocks. I like what I've read about them.

Jesse · 11-24-2002, 03:14 PM

I have experienced remarkable success from the Cor-Bon 230+p JHP load when shooting my Glock 30, S&W 625, and my Ruger P-90. This load clocks at around 1000 fps through a S&W 625 revolver. WOW! That's smokin' for a 230gr .45ACP. I will not shoot this round through a 1911... too hot and the bullet shape does not lend itself well for feeding in a 1911. For a 1911 I use 230gr. ball or Winchester 230 gr. USA Personal Defense.

bravo30 · 09-21-2007, 10:43 AM

i use federal 230 grain hydro shock for the first 6 rounds then the rest are FMJ ( i figure if i shoot at him 6 times and hes still there im either a bad shot or hes hiding behind something lol )

Mooseman684 · 09-21-2007, 10:59 AM

I'll be the Odd man by saying I use 110 grain Aguila ICQ .45acp in My Colt Mk4 series 70 and my Kimbers for home defense. Very accurate, light recoil and a great performing bullet from testing on various mediums, like wood, oil drums, etc. So far they feed flawlessly, something necessary for a life threatening situation.
Rich

ezearln · 09-21-2007, 11:33 AM

To be honest being from the old school philosphy, I find that bigger is better. Not to discount modern hollowpoint or frangible designs which have from my experience good effects in actual real life shootings. Seeing as how most of the newer M1911A1 magazines load 8 vs the 7 I am accustomed to my choices are these:
In the house:
5 rounds glazers
4 rounds 230gr FMJ ball
Street or field carry:
9 rds 230gr FMJ ball

My reasoning? In the house (ultra thin walled construction) I don't want rounds exiting the structure to endanger others, however if the 1st 5 don't anchor the bad guy it may be he is wearing body armor of some type meaning I must take a head shot so I WANT penetration.
On the street? I want what I know from being a 20+ yr small arms/combat instructor will function flawlessly 99.99% of the time, is accurate at all normal combat ranges provide reasonable penetration through heavy clothing or light cover and should it miss has a low probability of a richochet ( a fact proven to me in testing I personally witnessed as an observer for the Secret Services field testing of static armor plating)
and .45 ball loaded to MILSPEC very rarely exits the human body, thereby transferring it's energy fully into the target.

These are simply my choices based entirely upon my personal experiences, training and use and my reasoning for them. Others may disagree as is their right.

rondog · 09-21-2007, 02:43 PM

I just bought meself a box of 50 230gr. Winchester Ranger SXT's today. I understand they're basically the replacement for the Black Talons.

05-08-2002, 08:22 PM	#1
Pumpkinheaver Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,340	.45acp Defensive ammo? I have a Kimber .45 that I keep for home defence. I keep it loaded with Federal 165gr hydrashocks or 185gr win silvertips. I have two questions. 1. What do you all think of these two loads? 2. What other loads would you recomend and why? __________________ Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!

05-08-2002, 08:57 PM	#2
colt45 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Occupied Territories of New York (Buffalo) Posts: 2,898	I shoot them both. I think the winchester groups better. I also use the speer gold dot by federal. If your only useing it for home or self defence Glazer makes a fragmented roung you might want to try. I had problems in the feed ramp with these in my Colt combat commander but they may feed just fine in your kimber. __________________ "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis "If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective." - Ted Nugent "Self-defense is Nature's eldest law." -John Dryden

05-08-2002, 09:17 PM	#3
jerry Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 10,882 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 1	I think the fed hyd shock has the best "documented" street record. I personally miss the black tallon. As mentioned speer has a good bullet, remington golden saber, eldorado, win silvertips, all good. make sure your piece likes 'em and you can shoot them well. consider your potential angles of fire and look for over penetration issues. __________________ I'm a down home back woods redneck

05-09-2002, 07:57 AM	#4
oneastrix Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 5,213	I prefer Speer Golddot 200gr + P, but your current choices are just fine. It's all about shot placement. My Kimber eats them perfectly. I was fortunate enough to witness some ballistic gelltin tests done at a firearms instructors school. They obviously believed in the Speer Gold Dot round. Expansion was ideal, and the rounds put the brakes on at a reasonable depth of penetration. They tested several different round and brands out of several different pistols. It was extremely neat to see. In law enforcement, we are constantly worried about over penetration. Departments either favor the "slow and heavy" or the "fast and light." I've found that the ,180 gr .40SW for instance, hardly expands at all out of a four inch barrel. A 155gr .40SW expands beautifully out of the same gun. VELOCITY = EXPANSION. RAPID EXPANSION= NO OVER PENETRATION (provided you place the shot well). I think I rambled on to much. Hit something with a .45ACP, and you will ruin it's day! __________________ There's no one more thankful to sit at the table, than the one who best remembers hunger's pain. Last edited by oneastrix; 05-09-2002 at 11:59 AM.

05-28-2002, 12:02 AM	#7
Rock Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 253	The 230gr HydraShok will put a end to the argument! __________________ www.infowars.com www.infowars.com www.infowars.com The worst kind of slave is the one who thinks he is free... The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered eastern people to have arms. History teaches thet all conquerors who have allowed thir subject race to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so...Adolf Hitler...4/11/1942

05-23-2002, 09:46 AM	#5
Mike southers Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: middle coast Posts: 162	I must be an old school .45 shooter. When I think of 185 grain bulets, I am reminded of the semi wadcutter "collar buttons". Not a good defensive choice. I have some 200 grain Federal HPs for the house. Like the BT's, these will expand nastily. Shouldn't over penetrate.

05-25-2002, 05:39 PM	#6
DFBonnett Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3	I use HydraShoks but 230 gr. They are reputed to make a big deep hole.

06-03-2002, 05:48 PM	#8
FEG Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Behind the Iron Curtain Posts: 517	.45 Defense Rounds Most genuine ballisticians agree with the IWBA, claiming that a jacketed hollow point must be travelling above the speed of sound in order to reliably expand in human tissue. This is not to say expansion NEVER occurs at subsonic velocities, but it is a fairly low percentage. Remember, no legitimate scientist has EVER claimed that balistic gelatin gives any direct indication of a particular load's performance in living tissue. (Too bad, Marshall and Sanow don't seem to understand this...) My point: The best loads in .45 are either very heavy or very light. The "in between" loads seem to be the worst of both worlds. A 200 gr bullet is unlikely to expand, due to its slower velocity, but it still isn't the 230 gr monster. The 185gr JHPs are often supersonic, and they have a much higher percentage for success (expansion) than heavier, slower hollowpoints. The Winchester Silvertips are consistently very accurate in this bullet weight. Any respectable 230 gr load is still, in the final analysis, an awfully big projectile: unsafe at any speed! I like the Speer Gold Dot HP 230 gr +P law enforcement over-run ammo. It is too slow to reliably expand (like any 230 gr load I have ever seen), but it is the fastest 230 gr load on the market (based on chronograph data, not manufacturers' data). In other words, this is an awfully heavy bullet at @960 fps, no matter what happens inside the body. Although I would advise against carrying handloaded ammo for self-defense, the best defensive loads in .45 have proven to be a 230 gr bullet with some exposed lead. Now that semi-jacketed HPs are unavailable, this means a lead semi-wad cutter is a pretty attractive option. A LSWC gives some penetration due to the full caliber cutting shoulder, and the exposed lead virtually guarantees some upset. The semi-JHPs were definitely the best thing going. Notice that they have been taken off the market, not the largely ineffective "premium" JHPs.

11-06-2002, 11:06 AM	#9
Ayteeone Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 33	FEG, where are you getting your information? Whether or not a bullet expands does not revolve around the speed of sound. It depends entirely the design and the medium it bites it into when it hits. Modern .45 HP's expand just fine at their intended ranges, and the heavier ones don't come near the speed of sound. Having said that, my personal choice is 185 gr Silvertip. They are accurate in the many .45's I've shot them through, and flat shooting from my carbine. Every one I have recovered has expanded or at least considerably deformed. And a study several years ago showed it to be the least likely of any conventional .45 ammo to exit a normal dwelling. FWIW I don't give much credence to the one-shot stop idea anyway, at least not at handgun power levels. With credit to Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch, "Don't expect it to work". See www.thegunzone.com for the write up on on the Miami shootout. Many hits were made on both sides, with ammo performance being right along design levels. Several hits were made that "should have been" disabling, yet those hit carried on thinking, moving, and fighting. Most recently feedback from Afganistan is indicating that even .223 doesn't reliably get the job done with one shot. (Which won't surprise some of you...) Bottom line - find a tool that is reliable that you can get good hits with and will have with you when you need it. Then practice, practice, practice...

11-07-2002, 12:32 AM	#10
Pumpkinheaver Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,340	I look at it like this, if a .45 expands then it's gravy, if it doesn't then I still have a .451" projectile that is gonna do some damage. __________________ Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!

11-07-2002, 04:43 AM	#11
jarcp Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: OKC, OK Posts: 253	How about the Power-n-ball from Corbon? Anyone have any experience? Looks like an intresting idea. I just cannot believe no one has thought of it before now (now being 1 1/2 years ago) __________________ Reed's Ammunition & Research 1209 SW 129th St. Oklahoma City, OK 73170 www.reedsammo.com info@reedsammo.com

11-07-2002, 09:26 AM	#12
Big Dog Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 10,214	I use either of two loads, depending on where I am. In-house, I keep the ol' 1911 loaded with Glaser Bluetips. The neighbors are uncomfortably close, and I don't want too much penetration. The Colt backs up the 12 gauge, anyway. Outdoors, at the range and such, it's loaded with Federal Hydrashocks. I like what I've read about them. __________________ Moderator of: AR15/M16, M14/M1A, New/Beginning Shooters and Militaria/Collectables.

11-24-2002, 03:14 PM	#13
Jesse Administrator Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,945 Images: 2	I have experienced remarkable success from the Cor-Bon 230+p JHP load when shooting my Glock 30, S&W 625, and my Ruger P-90. This load clocks at around 1000 fps through a S&W 625 revolver. WOW! That's smokin' for a 230gr .45ACP. I will not shoot this round through a 1911... too hot and the bullet shape does not lend itself well for feeding in a 1911. For a 1911 I use 230gr. ball or Winchester 230 gr. USA Personal Defense. __________________ Jesse www.gunandgame.com

09-21-2007, 10:43 AM	#14
bravo30 Banned Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: philly Posts: 69	.45 defensive ammo i use federal 230 grain hydro shock for the first 6 rounds then the rest are FMJ ( i figure if i shoot at him 6 times and hes still there im either a bad shot or hes hiding behind something lol )

09-21-2007, 10:59 AM	#15
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness Posts: 9,673 Images: 2	I'll be the Odd man by saying I use 110 grain Aguila ICQ .45acp in My Colt Mk4 series 70 and my Kimbers for home defense. Very accurate, light recoil and a great performing bullet from testing on various mediums, like wood, oil drums, etc. So far they feed flawlessly, something necessary for a life threatening situation. Rich __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM!

09-21-2007, 11:33 AM	#16
ezearln Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 3,175	To be honest being from the old school philosphy, I find that bigger is better. Not to discount modern hollowpoint or frangible designs which have from my experience good effects in actual real life shootings. Seeing as how most of the newer M1911A1 magazines load 8 vs the 7 I am accustomed to my choices are these: In the house: 5 rounds glazers 4 rounds 230gr FMJ ball Street or field carry: 9 rds 230gr FMJ ball My reasoning? In the house (ultra thin walled construction) I don't want rounds exiting the structure to endanger others, however if the 1st 5 don't anchor the bad guy it may be he is wearing body armor of some type meaning I must take a head shot so I WANT penetration. On the street? I want what I know from being a 20+ yr small arms/combat instructor will function flawlessly 99.99% of the time, is accurate at all normal combat ranges provide reasonable penetration through heavy clothing or light cover and should it miss has a low probability of a richochet ( a fact proven to me in testing I personally witnessed as an observer for the Secret Services field testing of static armor plating) and .45 ball loaded to MILSPEC very rarely exits the human body, thereby transferring it's energy fully into the target. These are simply my choices based entirely upon my personal experiences, training and use and my reasoning for them. Others may disagree as is their right. __________________ "You can have my Freedom when I'm done with it!"

09-21-2007, 02:43 PM	#17
rondog Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 1,334	I just bought meself a box of 50 230gr. Winchester Ranger SXT's today. I understand they're basically the replacement for the Black Talons.