Winchester SXZ Ammo, Black Talons?

[ALR]

Does any one have any experience with the SXZ ammo? It is only sold at Bass Pro stores I bought box of 50 for $15.00+. 9mm Hollow points that look like Black Talons. Pic on box shows expanded round and you can see Talon like claws under expanded skirt.
Are the Talons back?
Also they have black Lubalox coating.

[Taurus Fan]

Found a link where they're discussed, hope it helps:

Has anyone heard of Winchester SXZ 9mm JHP from Bass Pro Shops? - Topic Powered by eve community


Apparently they're the plain vanilla flavored JHP Winchester makes with a lubalox coating, no great shakes.

[GlockMeister]

If you want black talons, there is/was a seller on gunbroker.com selling some, just go and search the site if you want or need it/some? FWIW, I've heard that not all that gentle on your barrel though. Don't know how true that is though. Just what I'd heard way back when. And couldn't even begin to verify it. lol

[TXplt]

Actually, the newer SXT has essentially the same or better bullet performance as the "evil" Black Talon--it just doesn't sound as bad. There was a pretty good picture of the expansion a couple issues of Am. Handgunner ago. Same as for the DPX by Cor-Bon at even lower velocities (or Speer LV Gold Dot).

[Troy]

rumor is that the talons are the same as the SXT's. they say that SXT is supposed to mean SUPREME EXPANSION TECHNOLOGY. the other rumor is that SXT is also supposed to mean SAME EXACT THING as talons. this all came out after the talons got such a bad name as bullets specially meant for killing. suprisingly enough, i never met a bullet designed to come over for tea and crumpets. odd.

[GlockMeister]

LOL. Good point Troy. Very good point.

[just_a_car]

Great point on the tea and crumpets, Troy... but wouldn't that be a nice PR thing for the pro-gunners to come back at the anti's with? "I have special bullets that I keep in this magazine that bring over tea and crumpets... but the one I keep in the firearm are 'super-killer-extreme-death' rounds; just in case."

Oh, also, I use RA40TA Winchester Ranger SXT 165gr .40S&W rounds for my carry in my G27. I decided on them after seeing them expand in The Box O' Truth testing. Man, I'd hate to be on the receiving end of one; there's little a surgeon could do to fix the "mangle" those petals would leave in the wound track.

[Willis_Rudy]

The Winchester Ranger is actually the descendant of the "evil" Black Talon. The original Black Talon featured fangs and black bullet. Truthfully, it had some issues that were improved upon in its next incarnation, the Ranger SXT.

The redesigned Ranger SXT still had the fangs and black bullet, but Winchester knew that ballistically they could do better than that. So next came the Ranger-T series which is the current production. The Ranger-T redesign still has the fangs but the bullet is now copper colored. But you have to be careful because its easy to confuse Ranger SXT with Ranger-T as both are commonly referred to as "Ranger SXT." and both boxes say "Ranger SXT" on them.

[danny29]

I've never understood what all the interest in the BT is all about. The media demonizes it and gun owners find this need to have it. Talk about media control of people. Nobody has ever shown it to be any better than any of the other premium bullets out there.

[Troy]

Originally Posted by Willis_Rudy

The Winchester Ranger is actually the descendant of the "evil" Black Talon. The original Black Talon featured fangs and black bullet. Truthfully, it had some issues that were improved upon in its next incarnation, the Ranger SXT.

The redesigned Ranger SXT still had the fangs and black bullet, but Winchester knew that ballistically they could do better than that. So next came the Ranger-T series which is the current production. The Ranger-T redesign still has the fangs but the bullet is now copper colored. But you have to be careful because its easy to confuse Ranger SXT with Ranger-T as both are commonly referred to as "Ranger SXT." and both boxes say "Ranger SXT" on them.

there is also civillian and LEO verrsions of the SXT's.

[Pumpkinheaver]

Originally Posted by danny29

I've never understood what all the interest in the BT is all about. The media demonizes it and gun owners find this need to have it. Talk about media control of people. Nobody has ever shown it to be any better than any of the other premium bullets out there.

People want what they can't have. Kinda like the blonde next door, you know your wife will kill ya but you still want her!!!

[Skibum]

I heard that one issue with the BT's was that they tended to be very dangerous for surgeons to handle, as they developed very sharp edges. If this is unique, and the surgeons were unprepared, then that might be a legitmate issue, but as likely as not the circumstances were trumped up by the Brady Bunch.

[rondog]

Originally Posted by Skibum

I heard that one issue with the BT's was that they tended to be very dangerous for surgeons to handle, as they developed very sharp edges. If this is unique, and the surgeons were unprepared, then that might be a legitmate issue, but as likely as not the circumstances were trumped up by the Brady Bunch.

Oh come on, surgeons aren't going to grab 'em with their hands, they use forceps for that. They just have sharp points on the tips of the "leaves", it's not like they're a bundle of razor blades. Here's what one looks like.....and FWIW, I carry the LE version SXT's.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...blacktalon.jpg

[TXplt]

Originally Posted by danny29

I've never understood what all the interest in the BT is all about. The media demonizes it and gun owners find this need to have it. Talk about media control of people. Nobody has ever shown it to be any better than any of the other premium bullets out there.

It's the typical "blame the thing, not the person" by anti-gun people who know nothing about the subject at hand. BT "sounded bad" when used by overzealous prosecutors and media people--just like the SUX-200 car in that movie (or "SUV" can be made to sound wasteful when an airplane guzzles far more fuel).

Almost ANY handgun bullet is of limited performance (at least compared with the energy of a rifle); that's why shot placement is important.

I'd stack up the SXT and the DPX (along with the 158+P LSWHP in the .38) along with Gold Dots, HS, etc. as being of substantially equivalent capabilities. Basically, any modern expanding ammo can be a stopper or not depending on the operator.

[sbowers5]

I agree with TXplt, but the last statistics i looked at still put the .357 federal 125 grn. hollow point as the no. 1 man stopper, and the 45acp hydroshock as the no.2, all the rest folllow in some order, so actually the black talon is not even mentioned in those reports.
steve

[HogManMagnum]

i was at bass pro today and saw the SXZ ammo up close, a while back i saw a promo video they had for it. heres my impression:

its basically a repackaged WWB round (fmj & jhp). they repackaged it in some flashy eye-catching graffix and used phrases like "top ballistic technology and performance" and touted the lubalox coating, quote: "protects bullet and protects gun barrel shot after shot from fouling - fewer cleanings'

if this was the new hot s#!t bullet why would they only sell it at bass pro, a place that doesnt even specialize in guns, i.e. a big box store

winchester repackaged some old, cheap, underperforming crap to appeal to the occasional shooter. they basically said "Hey we got this new high tech ammo, its looks real cool and if u use it u dont have to clean ur gun anymore. Plus its cheap!" and people out there are falling for it. JMHO

the jhp did horrible in a recent test. saw it on sigforum but lost the link...

heres some facts i just found while googling:

From P. Nowack, Winchester LE ammo rep:

SXZ is _NOT_ a version of the SXTs (Black Talon, Ranger SXT, Ranger Talon, Ranger T).

It _IS_ the same 115 JHP bullet they have been making for over 25 yrs now w a black coating (Lubalox). Same bullet they use in the USA (std), Ranger line (std and +P+), and Silvertip. The only difference is the color of the jacket/coating.

They all perform the same at the same velocity. At 1190 fps about 8-9 inches at .65 - .70 in bare gel, 12/.60 through heavy cloth, 14/.55 through denim.

The 180/40 and 230/45 SXZ JHPs are the same bullet they use in the USA and Ranger line, called Subsonic DP before that.

Not to be confused with the 180/230 JHPs called Black Talon, SXT, Ranger SXT, Ranger Talon, Ranger T. Or the civilian version of the LE SXTS, the Supreme SXTs.

damn, ive bought quite a few boxes of winchester rangers. i could have just bought WWB JHP... good thing i switched to hornady

[black talonsjim]

are the "new black talons" as good as the originals?? i noticed a weight difference and unsure of whether or not they still have the razor talons like the old ones can someone please answer this for me??
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/i...da86e1aa0f.jpg

[TXplt]

The PDX / Bonded is their latest and is the one which has passed (in .40 at least--I believe the 180 grain version but could be wrong) all the FBI protocols.

In short, It'll do. Performance is about as good as it gets in a late generation bullet.

Any of them are enough of a "magic bullet" in the hands of a competent shooter with proper shot placement (which is the important thing anyway).

Cheers

[deadzero]

Originally Posted by danny29

I've never understood what all the interest in the BT is all about. The media demonizes it and gun owners find this need to have it. Talk about media control of people. Nobody has ever shown it to be any better than any of the other premium bullets out there.

At the time they were introduced the BT was one of the best bullet designs on the market. but the brady bunch saw this as a way to attack handguns at the source, the ammo. the brady bunch got some surgeons to make claims, as stated by Skibum above, as to them being dangerous to medical personel. (possible AIDS transmission and all that). once they got some yahoo congressmen on board with the idea of legislating for "safe" bullet designs, and the media was running stories on it almost daily, things started to get ugly. Winchester had a great product that was selling very well, but for the sake of the industry, they pulled all stock from dealer shelves and offered it to LEO only. this killed, overnite, the push by the brady bunch and their cronies to push legislation on ammo. It was a good move on Winchesters part to a certain extent to end the debate since they were the focus of this. But wether it was the best move overall is still open to much debate. The re-introduction of the same basic design was probably going to come sooner or later, but of course it would have to be under a different name to avoid drawing attention. since then the technology has improved and the newer PDX-1 is even better than the old BT.

I'm not sure on this, but was told the PDX-1 was an upgrade to the SXT.

[twtalbot]

Originally Posted by Troy

rumor is that the talons are the same as the SXT's. they say that SXT is supposed to mean SUPREME EXPANSION TECHNOLOGY. the other rumor is that SXT is also supposed to mean SAME EXACT THING as talons. this all came out after the talons got such a bad name as bullets specially meant for killing. suprisingly enough, i never met a bullet designed to come over for tea and crumpets. odd.

You beat me to it :-)

FWIW, Black Talons were never actually banned. The FBI bullied Winchester into pulling it from the market by threatening to boycott Winchester. Winchester stopped using the name but kept selling the product, first under the name: Ranger SXT (same exact thing)