^ Don't get where you're coming from (or headed for that matter) If you change a 5.56/.243 to 6mm then it is no longer 5.56/6mm.And there are other things you can do to change BC,such as change design (like from sp to hp,fb to bt,etc) or increase velocity. And a .260 is 6.5mm,or .26 cal,not 6mm or .24 cal.I was just a little confused is all. ,,,sam.
I was thinking about getting a Remington SPS in .223 and having the barrel shortened from it's original 26" length to 20".
The barrel has a 1:12 twist so I assume 55 grain bullets are the heaviest it can handle and max range would be about 400-500 yards? Am I in the ballpark here?
__________________
Zombies tremble at the mention of my name.
^ Don't get where you're coming from (or headed for that matter) If you change a 5.56/.243 to 6mm then it is no longer 5.56/6mm.And there are other things you can do to change BC,such as change design (like from sp to hp,fb to bt,etc) or increase velocity. And a .260 is 6.5mm,or .26 cal,not 6mm or .24 cal.I was just a little confused is all. ,,,sam.
I under stand what you are asking. Last night i had some old fart drugs and anti werevolf med and I was kinda loopy.What I was trying to get at was the length of higher BC bullets and the weight factor going up. They most likely require tighter twists in order to be better stabilized. Granted some rounds like the .257 with weights up to 118 gr from barnes does well in a 1/10 twist. What I am also saying as I preach to the choir is
weight and twist rates are not the only to accurate flight characteristics but so is a high BC.
Well if you want to be a proficient target shooter, you can't be worrying much about the price of the ammo. You have to get the good stuff, even if you are reloading them yourself.
__________________
People think I'm paranoid because I own guns. If I own guns, what do I have to be paranoid about?
I was thinking about getting a Remington SPS in .223 and having the barrel shortened from it's original 26" length to 20".
The barrel has a 1:12 twist so I assume 55 grain bullets are the heaviest it can handle and max range would be about 400-500 yards? Am I in the ballpark here?
I have a Remington 700 sps varmint and tried heavier bullets in it, at 100 yards with 77 grain rounds I was hitting all over the paper, the rounds just wouldn’t stabilize. 55 grain round would print just over 1 MOA. I have some lighter rounds that I want to try out. .223 will reach out 1000 yards and many match shooters use them but I think if you really want to get into shooting that long you should start out shooting 500 and increasing your range slowly. I got the chance to shoot my M16/A4, ACOG combo from the 1000 yard line in 29 stumps a couple years ago. I’ll tell you that is a hard shot to make, I think I hit 6 of 10 in the black.
__________________
Anything said here is my PERSONAL opinion nothing more
I have a Remington 700 sps varmint and tried heavier bullets in it, at 100 yards with 77 grain rounds I was hitting all over the paper, the rounds just wouldn’t stabilize. 55 grain round would print just over 1 MOA. I have some lighter rounds that I want to try out. .223 will reach out 1000 yards and many match shooters use them but I think if you really want to get into shooting that long you should start out shooting 500 and increasing your range slowly. I got the chance to shoot my M16/A4, ACOG combo from the 1000 yard line in 29 stumps a couple years ago. I’ll tell you that is a hard shot to make, I think I hit 6 of 10 in the black.
You need a 1:8"twist for 70gr bullets and a 1:7"or faster for heavier like 77/80gr.Which makes your rifle almost useless with lighter,what I call common weights 50/63gr because the fast twist will "over stabilise" or spin the bullet so fast it turns into a grey puff a few yds in front of the muzzle. ,,,sam.
You need a 1:8"twist for 70gr bullets and a 1:7"or faster for heavier like 77/80gr.Which makes your rifle almost useless with lighter,what I call common weights 50/63gr because the fast twist will "over stabilise" or spin the bullet so fast it turns into a grey puff a few yds in front of the muzzle. ,,,sam.
Sam, my 20" 1 in 8" Hbar works OK with bullets from 55gns upwards; Most good ammo can group within 1moa at 100 yards, the 62-69gn is pretty good at 300/400 yards, though I do get best results with the 75-80 gn bullets at 3-600 yards.
I'm not a believer in the over-stabilization theories but I have never fired anything less than 55gn in my rifle.
__________________
How can I 'Soar with the Eagles' when I'm working with such 'Turkeys'!
Sam, my 20" 1 in 8" Hbar works OK with bullets from 55gns upwards; Most good ammo can group within 1moa at 100 yards, the 62-69gn is pretty good at 300/400 yards, though I do get best results with the 75-80 gn bullets at 3-600 yards.
I'm not a believer in the over-stabilization theories but I have never fired anything less than 55gn in my rifle.
In the first young man,(don't make me swim over there and shake sense in you!) I was speaking in generalities and really meant what you could expect at 1000yds or so.Like most bullets will have something like best stability at 1500 to 2800yds or such,which means if you start dropping below that 1500 (another generality) you start losing stability.This does not mean suddenly the bullet is going crazy,it just means that it isn't quite as stable as it might be at 1500fps and above.The same works in reverse at fps over the hypothetical 2800fps.Now that you have that straight lets get into over stabilization.There is no such thing that I know of.Over stabilization the way I always heard of it was a term used to refer to the above max RPM,s a bullet might be turned which would surpass the resistance of the jacket to hold the core togather.This is what causes that little puff of grey,usually about 20yds in front of the muzzle and no holes in the target.Some bullet boxes give the max velocity the bullet will stand like one varmint bullet Hornady has that says 3400fps max.I have pushed them beyond that but not by much.As to your stated yardage,all bullets have certain ranges they are more stable/accurate in than they are closer or further because they are turning the best rpm for stability in that range.This doesn't mean they are wild and then hit max/best stabilization and then go wild again.It only means that best conditions are between such and such and so and so.Kind of like a plane will very well fly at both 80mph and 160mph,but best stability (hence efficiency/accuracy) is somewhere between the two.Or I can drive a vehicle above or below a certain speed but best ride stability is such and such. I hope you are watching out for those storms and playing safe.And don't blow the rig up like BP did.I worry about you. ,,,sam.
This thread's taken some interesting directions.........for example.....
Quote:
There is good reason .308 and .3006 or the 7mm's do so well in long range competition .
The .30-06's death knell as a long range bullseye competition round started in 1963 when the .308 Win. was first allowed in NRA competition. It had been seriously wounded since the late 1950's when the .30-.338 came about but it took a few years for it to die a natural (accuracy?) death. 7mm's fell out of favor in the 1990's when Sierra Bullets was finally able to make really good 26 caliber bullets. Which is why the 6.5-.284 and its cousins are favored these days in long range, shoulder fired, rifle matches.
There's several remarks about the punch a .22 caliber bullet of any weight has at 1000 yards. Well, it doesn't take much to punch a hole in a paper target pasted on onsburg cloth nailed to a wood frame. The .223 Rem and it's military version did have a few problems with the 50-some odd grain bullets punching through cardboard backed paper targets at 600 yards in the early '70's, but that soon went away with heavier bullets being used. So the lethality of bullets has no place in a competitive discipline discussion.
Quote:
You'd be much better off with a .3006 with .223 Excelerator Sabbot Bullets if you actually want to hit anything accurately with a .223 at those ranges .
Saboted bullets are near the bottom of the accuracy pile after all the empty cases are ejected.
Quote:
As for 1000 yard shooting with the .223, just make sure you can consistantly hold 0.5moa at 300 yards first.
The subtended angle one holds a rifle while sighting it at the target remains constant regardsless of range. One half MOA subtends the same angle at all ranges. To say nothing of the fact that nobody I know holding a High Master classification in high power long range (600-1000 yard) prone competition can hold that well. The best of them hold about 3/4ths MOA then try to break all their shots inside 1/2 MOA. With a rifle and ammo combination that'll hold 3/4ths MOA at 1000 yards (best one can hope for; the hell with BR records 1/3rd that size that are at the smallest end of the their accuracy spectrum), you might shoot a 1.25 MOA 20-shot group at 1000 yards once in your life.
Benchrest competition requres accurate rifles and ammo. All the shooter has to do is dope the wind accurately and fire the rifle without disturbing its point of aim. Easy to do with a scope-sighted 15+ pound rifle's 2-ounce trigger as it rests on bags. Most of these rifles are shot in free recoil; untouched by us humans except for the tip of ones trigger finger.
High power competition requires accurate rifles and ammo equalling what benchresters use. The shooter has to hold that rifle himself; no rest allowed. And learn how to hold still in spite of a beating heart and wobbly muscles. Both scopes and iron sights are used. Trigger pulls allowed go from 4.5 pounds down to a few ounces depending on the discipline. There's a lot more "shooting" skills required in this discipline.
As to your stated yardage,all bullets have certain ranges they are more stable/accurate in than they are closer or further because they are turning the best rpm for stability in that range.
Where does the physical force come from that makes bullets in those "certain ranges" go through the air closer to the center of all fired bullets' trajectory paths?
Where does the energy come from that moves those bullets closer to the center go back towards the outside edges of the trajectory paths (an imaginary group?) at some range further away?
Something's got to make these bullets change direction in order for your statement to be true.
You will need special equipment to shoot at 1000 yards consistently. Match barrels, heavy bullets, target triggers, bench type reloaded ammo. Cost is a factor. For starting out, the 1 in 7 twist 223 would be good with 69 to 77 grain bullets. Once you learn the basics at shorter range you can move up. I heard that the long range 22 cal guys are using 80-90 gr bullets in 22-250 AI rifles. Try doing a net search and you should find some people who are experienced at this. Just my .02.
the 223 match shooters BEAT 308 users at 1000 yds all the time these days. They use a 90 gr VLD (very low drag) boattailed match hp bullet, from a 26" barrel, 1 in 6.5" twist, and it performs just fine. They get it going about 2800 fps and it's still got 1200 fps left at 1000 yds. That's about as much power as a 4" barreled .38 revolver has at 10 FEET, using plus p ammo! It's no joke at all, in other words. Just because the ignorant have only looked at the performance of 55 gr, plain based softpoints in 223 doesn't mean that better loads don't exist. If you used an 18" barrel and 150 gr, round nosed sp in 308, it looks pretty sad at a mere 600 yds. You can't just assume that the 308 is a lot better, cause that's just not true. Many 3006 loads are not better at 1000 yds than these specialized 223's are, for either sniping or match winning. At 1/2 mile plus, there's no reason to care if the "hittee" is able to flop around for a minute before he dies. He's no threat to you.
the 223 match shooters BEAT 308 users at 1000 yds all the time these days. They use a 90 gr VLD (very low drag) boattailed match hp bullet, from a 26" barrel, 1 in 6.5" twist, and it performs just fine. They get it going about 2800 fps and it's still got 1200 fps left at 1000 yds. That's about as much power as a 4" barreled .38 revolver has at 10 FEET, using plus p ammo! It's no joke at all, in other words. Just because the ignorant have only looked at the performance of 55 gr, plain based softpoints in 223 doesn't mean that better loads don't exist. If you used an 18" barrel and 150 gr, round nosed sp in 308, it looks pretty sad at a mere 600 yds. You can't just assume that the 308 is a lot better, cause that's just not true. Many 3006 loads are not better at 1000 yds than these specialized 223's are, for either sniping or match winning. At 1/2 mile plus, there's no reason to care if the "hittee" is able to flop around for a minute before he dies. He's no threat to you.
Please do point me to comp results where this occurs.
I second That....
BECAUSE...if that was true the U.S.Military snipers would be using 5.56instead of 7.62 Nato or .300 Win mag for those 1000 yard shots , and They DON'T !
Go .308 with the following and you'll be getting their 1:12 and a long barrel, very light trigger, yea and the scope your thinking of is a good one. Start shooting its going to take some experience to reach out that far. I say find a range maybe up to 500 yds and become a regular their and learn it. If you don't plan to reload at least start saving your brass, because you will. Also important is getting the right bullets for the barrel twist. Google around and read up it will save you money. I just fell head over heels with my .308 a year ago. I reload but right now I'm just collecting the brass as I use it. I see drastic changes in my groupings between different bullet weights. So whatever you end up doing research here and their about it. Don't buy the wrong gun, or barrel thats just throwing money away.
+1
If your going to squeeze peake accuracy out of almost any rifle, you will need to make the custom load for that 1 rifle. Working on, and finding that special load that turns it from a great shooter into an awsome tack driver is well worth the effort.
like said above, save your brass!
old post, I know..........
__________________ If I need more than 1 shot, I need more practice.
Location: In the hard woods - next to a pond in Missouri
Posts: 646
Others have given good advice, here is mine.
If you want to take up target shooting you need to practice a lot. If you are an amateur you might do well to start with a rim fire and join a club. When it gets easier then move up.
In the military I can remember hitting a 300 yard target pretty easy with my M16a1.
__________________
...911, Government sponsored dial-a-prayer...
1911, Government sponsored answer to your prayers.
[QUOTE=Boken;803650
You'd be much better off with a .3006 with .223 Excelerator Sabbot Bullets if you actually want to hit anything accurately with a .223 at those ranges . Even with that your asking allot , accurately . I think 1,000 yards is way out of the .223's league . JMHO ..........There is good reason .308 and .3006 or the 7mm's do so well in long range competition.[/QUOTE]I know a few folks who tried saboted .22 bullets in an '06 for longer ranges. The were barely accurate at 200 yards. Too much bullet unbalancing when the sabot flies off.
Note the .30-06 died as a competition round in the middle 1960's. The .308 Win. shot more accurate at all ranges up through 1000 yards. Still does. Given a choice of cartridges to use, nobody in their right mind chooses the .30-06 if they want to win.
Even the 7mm cartridges gave way to the 6.5 and 6mm ones when any cartridge could be used in matches. The reason is these smaller cartridges have less recoil and are easier to shoot accurately. And high BC bullets of top quality are also available in 24 and 26 caliber match forms. This didn't happen until the late 1990's.
its reply was "your the old four eyed geezer who's close to die'in"
can a .223 shoot 1000? sure.... but i'll bet my upper dentures the guy shootin it shot a 308, 300 mag, ect. first . did his homework on fixing dope with the like and "then" moved to a 223
3Likes
