62 grain vs 55 grain bullet weight

Doctor Larry K · 01-09-2008, 04:56 PM

Anyone try the Cheaper than Dirt 62 grain "Penetrator" ammo in their AR. Opinions and comments appreciated.

LarryO1970 · 01-09-2008, 05:00 PM

Here is the U.S. stuff. Where is the "Cheaper Than Dirt" stuff from?

5.56mm (.223) PARAMILITARY AMMUNITION

The following article is from the January/February, 1988
issue of Rifle magazine pages 36, 37, 70 and 71. This
article was written by John Schaefer.

"Anyone who has shot firearms equipped with oversized magazines knows
the rate of ammunition expended is directly proportional to the magazine
capacity. As the popularity of assault rifles has increased, the need for
reasonably priced ammunition has skyrocketed, creating a market for what is
known as paramilitary ammunition.

"Western countries use 7.62x51mm and 5.56x45mm ammunition for their
official military rounds, so most paramilitary rifles are offered in those
calibers. With the adoption of the new SS109 5.56x45mm round as NATO's
standard small caliber rifle cartridge, there is a great demand for that
ammunition to feed all the rifles now available to the public.
Advertisements for "NATO-type ammunition" are now quite common, though the
ads are misleading as the ammunition does not meet NATO specifications.

"Any cartridge that does not have the cross and circle (+) in its
headstamp is not NATO approved, no matter what the ads say. Real NATO
ammunition must be manufactured under NATO surveillance and be certified to
meet strict requirements for velocity, chamber and port pressure, barrel
time, temperature stability, barrel erosion, waterproofing and other
characteristics. Furthermore, NATO ammunition must be produced by a
specified facility in a NATO country. Ammunition made by surrogate nations
cannot carry the NATO symbol or interchangeability code. An item often
overlooked is that M193 Ball 5.56mm ammunition cannot be NATO approved,
since the official NATO round is the SS109 (U.S. M855) cartridge, and only
7.62mm Ball ammunition with a 146 to 148 grain boat tailed bullet, such as
the U.S. M80 Ball or Canadian C21, could be considered for NATO
certification. That does not mean there is anything wrong with available
paramilitary ammunition. As thousands of shooters can attest, it is safe
and serviceable.

"Because the standard military rifle cartridge of the free world is
fast becoming the 5.56mm round, this article will deal with its
paramilitary versions.

"U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55
grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20
inch test barrel measured 15 feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement
from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200
yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates to approximately three MOA).
"Statistically average" M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius,
which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA. Velocity from an M16 rifle or
pressure test barrel usually runs about 3,200 fps due to gas loss through
the port. Accuracy is typically around 2 to 2+ MOA from an M16A1 rifle at
ranges of 100 to 300 yards. M193 ammunition is suitable for use in 1 twist
in 12 inches or faster twists. While commercial sporting rifles in this
caliber usually have one in 14 rifling, the M193 boat tailed bullet is
barely stabilized with that rate of twist at ambient temperatures, and will
not stabilize at all when the air temperature drops below freezing.

"NATO specifications for SS109 (U.S. M855) Ball require a 61.7 grain
(q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps
(q 40 fps) from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle. Typical
velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is around 3,100 fps. The accuracy
requirement from a test fixture equates to a maximum of approximately four
MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an
M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge
SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623
yards). The M193 round will penetrate this same plate reliably at 400
yards, and about half the time at 500 yards. The 5.56mm and 7.62mm NATO
rounds will penetrate it reliably out to 700 yards or more. Nominal
ballistics for M193 and M855 Ball rounds are given in an accompanying
table. The tables were constructed from the latest data supplied by the
U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory at Aberdeen Proving Ground,
Maryland.
5.56 NATO Ball Ammunition Ballistic Comparison
based on Aberdeen Proving Ground Data
velocity (fps) trajectory (in.) drop (inches) drift (inches)*
range M193 M855 M193 M855 M193 M855 M193 M855
(meters)
0 3,200 3,100 -2.5 -2.5 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
200 2,374 2,420 +2.7 +5.8 -9.9 -10.2 5.8 4.9
300 2,012 2,115 -4.9 0.0 -25.1 -25.3 14.2 11.8
400 1,680 1,833 -23.0 -15.0 -50.8 -49.5 27.6 22.4
500 1,373 1,569 -56.2 -42.9 -91.6 -86.7 47.5 38.0
600 1,106 1,323 -113.1 -88.2 -156.1 -141.3 76.4 59.5
700 995 1,106 -206.8 -156.1 -257.3 -220.9 113.5 88.4
800 927 1,010 -339.9 -267.7 -398.0 -339.2 156.1 124.9

* Drift for 10 mph wind.
M193 Ball ammunition fired in M16A1 rifle with 250 meter battle sight zero.
M855 Ball ammunition fired in M16A2 rifle with 300 meter battle sight zero.
__________________________________________________ __________________________

5.56mm Velocities and Accuracy

ammunition
55 grain Ball bullets
U.S. M193 "TW 73"
Lot TW-2-699
PMC M193
"PS 80"
Lot PS-E5-2139-79

Because the steel penetrator increases the length and changes the
weight distribution of the SS109 bullet, it is suitable for use only in
barrels with a twist of one turn in nine inches or faster. Pre-1986 Ruger
Mini-14's with the one in 10 inch twist will handle this round but
stability is marginal and accuracy falls off below zero degrees Fahrenheit.
Military rifles intended to use this ammunition have a seven inch twist to
ensure bullet stability under arctic conditions and to stabilize the even
longer L110 and M856 tracer bullets. Current production Mini-14's and some
Ranch Rifles now have seven inch twists.

To set the baseline for testing, U.S. M193 Ball was fired from both an
AR-15 (12 inch twist) and an AR-15-A2 HBAR (seven inch twist), to establish
velocity and accuracy standards. No M855 was available, as that ammunition
is restricted to U.S. government agencies.

The Hirtenberger SC ammunition tested in the AR-15-A2 came from an
initial lot supplied by Hansen Cartridge Corporation. It is suitable for
nine inch or faster twist barrels, and was included for comparison.

The IMI 223-13CL 63 grain softpoint load was included in the tests
since it is currently the only 5.56mm round with a heavy bullet readily
available. While it is usable in twelve inch twist barrels because of the
bullet's flat base and short overall length, it is sure to find favor among
owners of AR-15-A2's.

Paramilitary 5.56mm ammunition should not be fired in commercial
rifles with chambers reamed to SAAMI specifications. The SAAMI chamber used
in sporting firearms has a smaller diameter bullet seat, a shorter throat
and less free bore than military chambers. Chamber pressures can rise
dramatically when military ammunition is fired in them.

SAAMI specifications for commercial .223 ammunition specify an average
chamber pressure of 52,000 CUP. When military ammunition is fired in the
SAAMI chamber, pressures may rise to 55,000 or 60,000 CUP!

U.S. manufactured paramilitary ammunition intended for civilian
consumption is purposely loaded down to SAAMI pressure levels and bullets
are often seated deeper to accommodate the SAAMI chamber. Ammunition
certified to meet Mil-C-9963F (the military specification for M193 Ball) is
only available to U.S. government agencies and private security firms under
contract to provide security for U.S. government installations.

Pred · 01-09-2008, 05:17 PM

Nope, still trying to figure out why someone would pay $.50+ a round for .223....

Wingwiper · 01-11-2008, 03:17 PM

I would like to add my experiences if I may.

The M16A1 with a 1 in 11 twist is great with the 55 grain.

The M16A2 with the 1 in 7 twist is still great with the 55 grain and worst with the Green Tip 62 grain. If you are shooting less than 250 meters, you may only notice small differences but at LONGER ranges the core of the Green Tip is not ALWAYS symetrically Center Balanced and will actully wobble a great distance off of target. I have witnessed on a TEAM DAY the projectile missing the Target frame completely and going at 9 0'clock somewhere between the frames and that was ONLY at 400 meters. You may well register a Crossfire at 500 and 600 meters. Our Team stayed with the 55 grain with the A2s as long as NRA and military permitted.

To this day I wouldn't give 5 cents for Green Tip.

NRAJOE · 01-11-2008, 03:51 PM

1:7 twist (like my HBAR) are supposed to shoot 60 gr on up....I have 3,000 rds of SS109 ammo for it (62 gr)

Wingwiper · 01-11-2008, 03:59 PM

Great for plinking and short range shooting.

Cartridge, 5.56mm, Ball, M855

The cartridge is used by the M249 machine gun and the M16A2/A3/A4 and M4-series weapons. The cartridge is intended for use against personnel and unarmored targets. This is a training standard item used in both training and combat.

The M855 cartridge has a 62-grain, gilded metal-jacketed, lead alloy core bullet with a steel penetrator. The primer and case are waterproof.

This ammunition should not be used in the M16A1 except under emergency conditions, and only at targets less than 90 meters in distance. (The twist of the M16A1 rifling is not sufficient to stabilize the heavier projectile of the round).

The cartridge is identified by a green bullet tip.

Type Classification: STD - MSR 05826003. Type Classification Date: 1982.
Unit cost: $0.26 (Fiscal Year 2005).
Cartridge, 5.56mm, Ball, M855, Lead Free

The M855 "lead free" ball cartridge has a bullet with a conical steel insert and a tungsten composite core in a copper alloy jacket. The intended use is to maintain environmentally "clean" ranges.

The cartridge is identified by a green bullet tip.

Type Classification Date: 1982.
Unit cost: $0.38 (Fiscal Year 2005).

01-09-2008, 04:56 PM	#1
Doctor Larry K Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Palm Springs, Calif. Posts: 427	62 grain vs 55 grain bullet weight Anyone try the Cheaper than Dirt 62 grain "Penetrator" ammo in their AR. Opinions and comments appreciated.

01-11-2008, 03:51 PM	#5
NRAJOE Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Toledo,OH Posts: 19,052 Images: 3	1:7 twist (like my HBAR) are supposed to shoot 60 gr on up....I have 3,000 rds of SS109 ammo for it (62 gr) __________________ U.S. Army 1976-1979 237th Combat Engineers Heilbronn, Germany

01-09-2008, 05:00 PM	#2
LarryO1970 "Blazing Saddles" GOV Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johnson Creek, WI Posts: 2,873	Here is the U.S. stuff. Where is the "Cheaper Than Dirt" stuff from? 5.56mm (.223) PARAMILITARY AMMUNITION The following article is from the January/February, 1988 issue of Rifle magazine pages 36, 37, 70 and 71. This article was written by John Schaefer. "Anyone who has shot firearms equipped with oversized magazines knows the rate of ammunition expended is directly proportional to the magazine capacity. As the popularity of assault rifles has increased, the need for reasonably priced ammunition has skyrocketed, creating a market for what is known as paramilitary ammunition. "Western countries use 7.62x51mm and 5.56x45mm ammunition for their official military rounds, so most paramilitary rifles are offered in those calibers. With the adoption of the new SS109 5.56x45mm round as NATO's standard small caliber rifle cartridge, there is a great demand for that ammunition to feed all the rifles now available to the public. Advertisements for "NATO-type ammunition" are now quite common, though the ads are misleading as the ammunition does not meet NATO specifications. "Any cartridge that does not have the cross and circle (+) in its headstamp is not NATO approved, no matter what the ads say. Real NATO ammunition must be manufactured under NATO surveillance and be certified to meet strict requirements for velocity, chamber and port pressure, barrel time, temperature stability, barrel erosion, waterproofing and other characteristics. Furthermore, NATO ammunition must be produced by a specified facility in a NATO country. Ammunition made by surrogate nations cannot carry the NATO symbol or interchangeability code. An item often overlooked is that M193 Ball 5.56mm ammunition cannot be NATO approved, since the official NATO round is the SS109 (U.S. M855) cartridge, and only 7.62mm Ball ammunition with a 146 to 148 grain boat tailed bullet, such as the U.S. M80 Ball or Canadian C21, could be considered for NATO certification. That does not mean there is anything wrong with available paramilitary ammunition. As thousands of shooters can attest, it is safe and serviceable. "Because the standard military rifle cartridge of the free world is fast becoming the 5.56mm round, this article will deal with its paramilitary versions. "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55 grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20 inch test barrel measured 15 feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200 yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates to approximately three MOA). "Statistically average" M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius, which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA. Velocity from an M16 rifle or pressure test barrel usually runs about 3,200 fps due to gas loss through the port. Accuracy is typically around 2 to 2+ MOA from an M16A1 rifle at ranges of 100 to 300 yards. M193 ammunition is suitable for use in 1 twist in 12 inches or faster twists. While commercial sporting rifles in this caliber usually have one in 14 rifling, the M193 boat tailed bullet is barely stabilized with that rate of twist at ambient temperatures, and will not stabilize at all when the air temperature drops below freezing. "NATO specifications for SS109 (U.S. M855) Ball require a 61.7 grain (q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps (q 40 fps) from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle. Typical velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is around 3,100 fps. The accuracy requirement from a test fixture equates to a maximum of approximately four MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623 yards). The M193 round will penetrate this same plate reliably at 400 yards, and about half the time at 500 yards. The 5.56mm and 7.62mm NATO rounds will penetrate it reliably out to 700 yards or more. Nominal ballistics for M193 and M855 Ball rounds are given in an accompanying table. The tables were constructed from the latest data supplied by the U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland. 5.56 NATO Ball Ammunition Ballistic Comparison based on Aberdeen Proving Ground Data velocity (fps) trajectory (in.) drop (inches) drift (inches)* range M193 M855 M193 M855 M193 M855 M193 M855 (meters) 0 3,200 3,100 -2.5 -2.5 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 200 2,374 2,420 +2.7 +5.8 -9.9 -10.2 5.8 4.9 300 2,012 2,115 -4.9 0.0 -25.1 -25.3 14.2 11.8 400 1,680 1,833 -23.0 -15.0 -50.8 -49.5 27.6 22.4 500 1,373 1,569 -56.2 -42.9 -91.6 -86.7 47.5 38.0 600 1,106 1,323 -113.1 -88.2 -156.1 -141.3 76.4 59.5 700 995 1,106 -206.8 -156.1 -257.3 -220.9 113.5 88.4 800 927 1,010 -339.9 -267.7 -398.0 -339.2 156.1 124.9 * Drift for 10 mph wind. M193 Ball ammunition fired in M16A1 rifle with 250 meter battle sight zero. M855 Ball ammunition fired in M16A2 rifle with 300 meter battle sight zero. __________________________________________________ __________________________ 5.56mm Velocities and Accuracy ammunition 55 grain Ball bullets U.S. M193 "TW 73" Lot TW-2-699 PMC M193 "PS 80" Lot PS-E5-2139-79 Because the steel penetrator increases the length and changes the weight distribution of the SS109 bullet, it is suitable for use only in barrels with a twist of one turn in nine inches or faster. Pre-1986 Ruger Mini-14's with the one in 10 inch twist will handle this round but stability is marginal and accuracy falls off below zero degrees Fahrenheit. Military rifles intended to use this ammunition have a seven inch twist to ensure bullet stability under arctic conditions and to stabilize the even longer L110 and M856 tracer bullets. Current production Mini-14's and some Ranch Rifles now have seven inch twists. To set the baseline for testing, U.S. M193 Ball was fired from both an AR-15 (12 inch twist) and an AR-15-A2 HBAR (seven inch twist), to establish velocity and accuracy standards. No M855 was available, as that ammunition is restricted to U.S. government agencies. The Hirtenberger SC ammunition tested in the AR-15-A2 came from an initial lot supplied by Hansen Cartridge Corporation. It is suitable for nine inch or faster twist barrels, and was included for comparison. The IMI 223-13CL 63 grain softpoint load was included in the tests since it is currently the only 5.56mm round with a heavy bullet readily available. While it is usable in twelve inch twist barrels because of the bullet's flat base and short overall length, it is sure to find favor among owners of AR-15-A2's. Paramilitary 5.56mm ammunition should not be fired in commercial rifles with chambers reamed to SAAMI specifications. The SAAMI chamber used in sporting firearms has a smaller diameter bullet seat, a shorter throat and less free bore than military chambers. Chamber pressures can rise dramatically when military ammunition is fired in them. SAAMI specifications for commercial .223 ammunition specify an average chamber pressure of 52,000 CUP. When military ammunition is fired in the SAAMI chamber, pressures may rise to 55,000 or 60,000 CUP! U.S. manufactured paramilitary ammunition intended for civilian consumption is purposely loaded down to SAAMI pressure levels and bullets are often seated deeper to accommodate the SAAMI chamber. Ammunition certified to meet Mil-C-9963F (the military specification for M193 Ball) is only available to U.S. government agencies and private security firms under contract to provide security for U.S. government installations.

01-09-2008, 05:17 PM	#3
Pred Banned Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,873 Blog Entries: 3	Nope, still trying to figure out why someone would pay $.50+ a round for .223....

01-11-2008, 03:17 PM	#4
Wingwiper Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 789	I would like to add my experiences if I may. The M16A1 with a 1 in 11 twist is great with the 55 grain. The M16A2 with the 1 in 7 twist is still great with the 55 grain and worst with the Green Tip 62 grain. If you are shooting less than 250 meters, you may only notice small differences but at LONGER ranges the core of the Green Tip is not ALWAYS symetrically Center Balanced and will actully wobble a great distance off of target. I have witnessed on a TEAM DAY the projectile missing the Target frame completely and going at 9 0'clock somewhere between the frames and that was ONLY at 400 meters. You may well register a Crossfire at 500 and 600 meters. Our Team stayed with the 55 grain with the A2s as long as NRA and military permitted. To this day I wouldn't give 5 cents for Green Tip.

01-11-2008, 03:59 PM	#6
Wingwiper Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 789	Great for plinking and short range shooting. Cartridge, 5.56mm, Ball, M855 The cartridge is used by the M249 machine gun and the M16A2/A3/A4 and M4-series weapons. The cartridge is intended for use against personnel and unarmored targets. This is a training standard item used in both training and combat. The M855 cartridge has a 62-grain, gilded metal-jacketed, lead alloy core bullet with a steel penetrator. The primer and case are waterproof. This ammunition should not be used in the M16A1 except under emergency conditions, and only at targets less than 90 meters in distance. (The twist of the M16A1 rifling is not sufficient to stabilize the heavier projectile of the round). The cartridge is identified by a green bullet tip. Type Classification: STD - MSR 05826003. Type Classification Date: 1982. Unit cost: $0.26 (Fiscal Year 2005). Cartridge, 5.56mm, Ball, M855, Lead Free The M855 "lead free" ball cartridge has a bullet with a conical steel insert and a tungsten composite core in a copper alloy jacket. The intended use is to maintain environmentally "clean" ranges. The cartridge is identified by a green bullet tip. Type Classification Date: 1982. Unit cost: $0.38 (Fiscal Year 2005).