Need some opinions here. "bear defence"

SouthernHunter · 08-25-2007, 11:30 AM

Hey everyone. Quite often I head on up to Alaska and parts of Canada often with my father. I have also been offered a job in Anchorage. We often fish up there too and when the salmon, trout, ect are making their way up stream its that time of the year when the bears are out fishing (as are we). We don't bring our rifles up north with us when we fish, but I would feel a lot more comfortable knowing we had some form of protection with us in the event of a bear attack. Keep in mind, I have no intension of harming a grizzly or any other animal (except the fish we catch), but I'd like to have something with us just in the event of an attack. I've done a little bit of research, correct me if I'm wrong but I ran over some numbers..

Muzzle Energy

.357 mag - 500 ft/lbs
.44 mag - 900 ft/lbs
.480 ruger - 1315 ft/lbs
.454 casull - 1900 ft/lbs
.500 S&W - 2600 ft/lbs

What caliber would it take to defend oneself from a bear? My mind originally went right to a 44. mag. I also thought about the .500, which is extremely expensive to shoot and possible is an overkill. I really don't think with a 500 lbs + bear that a .500 would be an overkill but I assume you good people would know better than me. It would also be a defense weapon so I'm not going cheaping out on ammo even if the .500 is more expensive than the others (which I know it is) I'd rather buy the more expensive handgun and be better protected than cheap out anyhow. Any tips here? Also mods/admins I'm sorry if this is the wrong forum to ask this, please move it if it is.

JoeLee · 08-25-2007, 12:25 PM

I'd want the Marlin 1895 Guide Rifle in 45-70,with hand loaded ammo.If I have to shoot a Grizzly one shot is always preferable.

ArkansasHunter · 08-25-2007, 12:27 PM

I would forget the 357 but any of the others would be fine. My personal choice would be the 44 magnum though the others are more powerful.
I bet there's a lot of 44 magnums in use in Alaska or was before the other calibers were introduced.
Maybe Mooseman will come along and share his experence...A.H

SouthernHunter · 08-25-2007, 12:47 PM

We usually go out in a small boat or are fly fishing so I cant really carry a rifle with me or I would bring one of ours. I have a 44. that I could bring, I was just making sure it was big enough. Hopefully it will be. I'll keep listening to some opinions though. I just need something I can carry in a holster with me while I fish. Thanks for the input guys!

Lng Rng · 08-25-2007, 01:18 PM

Bring the 44 Mag. if you have one. Otherwise, if I were getting a handgun specificly for the reason, I would probably get the Casull.

samuel · 08-25-2007, 01:52 PM

You mentioned "parts of Canada".That pretty well eleminates any kind of firearm there.As to Alaska,my experiences,it is seldom the bears (in my case,never)will really bother you.Mostly what we always did was if they got too close and wanted that spot we backed out and let them have it.As to defence,if you only have one shot make it as big as you can.That .500 kicks but in defence from grizzly,s,I doubt if I would notice.I would carry it but make sure I really had to use it before firing.Bears,like most bullys do a lot of bluffing.They seldom get too close when you are looking directly at them.If that doesnt seem to work back out slowly.Dont run. sam.

ArkansasHunter · 08-25-2007, 02:32 PM

Wow Sam that was interesting...You've done that ?

samuel · 08-25-2007, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArkansasHunter

Wow Sam that was interesting...You've done that ?

Several times and hope to in the future altho health has slowed me down.I spend little time worrying about bear but when I see one I plan an orderly retreet in case it is necessary.I believe in carrying a big gun and when the .44 mag was big that was my choice.When the .454 came along I carried that.Now the .500 is my choice.In Canada without firearms I just retreat a lot sooner.Most of all with or without firearms I try not to take chances.I have never had what I consider a close call.I have had a bear follow me but when I stopped he-she stopped and soon lost intrest and went back to the fishing and I did too.I love to see them and consider it a real bonus to the trip. sam.

ash · 08-25-2007, 04:53 PM

12 gauge with slugs.

samuel · 08-25-2007, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ash

12 gauge with slugs.

As usual this comes up.Has anyone out there ever killed a grizzly with a .12ga? I wonder why experienced grizzly hunters waste big bucks on big boomers if a dinky .12ga is all they need???Why would anyone want to carry a very awkward shotgun that only developes half the power if a .500??? He already stated a long gun was too much.I agree it would be very slow and awkward in a fishing situation plus being on the edge of underpowered. sam.

Cyrille · 08-25-2007, 06:17 PM

You mention the big hand cannons and some long arms;the .500 is big, strong and mean and will certainly get the job done. So will the .44 magnum which is the smallest caliber I would use in that situation.
However no one's mentioned the S&W .460 XVR; MSRP somewhere around $1200.00 if I'm not mistaken. It fires the .45 LC, the .454 Casull and it's own .460 cartridge.
The .460 in the .460 cartridge sends a 200 gr. bullet down range @ approxamently 2300 fps according to what I've read in all the magazine articals I've seen on it. Anyway what I'm saying is if you want something a bit more powerful than the .454 Casull but not as mean as the .500 go with the .460 XVR. You may, of course, load it with heavier bullets than the 200 gr. one.
Be sure to use a good reloading manuel though.

billy · 08-25-2007, 06:39 PM

i would go with the .500 and a comfy holster. shotguns wont do you any good if they arent handy and it wouldnt be if you were fishing.
i would get the most pistol i could possibly get!

ive gone fishing in alaska and had to back off from my fish before.
you hook it .... they eat it.

there is no such thing as overkill with a grizzly bear.

Cyrille · 08-25-2007, 06:45 PM

Billy--- I've shot both and I can tell you that the .460 is a 'pussycat' in the recoil catagory next to the .500 a BIG pussycat true, but not a cougar.

A-10 · 08-25-2007, 06:47 PM

Alright, SouthernHunter, first off there is no such thing as overkill. It's either dead of it isn't. I would go with the classic 44 magnum. 357 might do it, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. The ruger super redhawk would be a good choice also with the 454. The reason I leave out the larger of the handcannons is because of weight and price. I'm sure one's life is worth it. I just can't see spending over $1200 on a shiny gun that's going to be up against the Northern wilderness when you can get a more than adequate 44 mag or 454 for less than $1000. The latter choices would also make for more comfortable carry.

Have you put any thought into barrell length? A longer barrell will make for higher muzzle energy if you are comfortable with a more weildy weapon.

ezearln · 08-25-2007, 06:49 PM

Bears even Grizzly bears rarely attack humans, however ALL BEARS do attack humans end of that debate, if all the critter wants is my fishin spot he is welcome to it I'll find another> But if a particular bear has become conditioned to equaling humans with food there is a possibilty of an attack, more so if you startle a sow with cubs. In Canada you aren't likely going to be able to carry a handgun regardless of the circumstances, in Alaska however if it were me I'd opt for the most powerful handgun I could handle accurately with repeat shots. I couldn't care less about all the fancy numbers neither you nor I or anyone else on the face of this planet is going to stop an Alaska Grizzly with one shot from ANY handgun ever built. I'd advise anyone in Alaska bear country to carry the most powerful handgun they can draw in haste, instinct shoot accurately and get 2-3 rounds off into their target in under 3 seconds at 20 yards. Bears all bears are incredibly fast, intelligent, powerful and lethal predators. My personal choices would be the Casull or .500 with the heaviest projectiles sitting ontop of the most powerful load the weapon and I can handle effectively. Then I'd hit the range in earnest for several sessions of "OMG" it's after me shooting. Good Luck to you (PS: Next to Texas Alaska is my favorite place on earth and in my lifetime I've been able to see alot of earths real estate)

billy · 08-26-2007, 12:18 AM

Ive fired the .500 and it is a handful.
but i shot a full cylinders worth and it didn't hurt THAT much.
BTW I'm skinny
ive seen em used for a grand

ArkansasHunter · 08-26-2007, 12:45 AM

For give my ignorance but if'in a bear were to charge and you've been watching and giveing the bear space and your prepared to draw and have to draw would'nt the blast (sound) and being hit some where on the bears body cause the bear to turn and haul azz from the blast and being hit ???

samuel · 08-26-2007, 07:39 AM

A.H.:Not necessarily!!!Sometimes yelling or throwing a rock might do it.But on grizzlies I dont try that because the old timers say it might make them charge.With black bears you want to yell and even advance,act threatening but grizzlies when challenged are sometimes willing to accept the challenge.A slow orderly retreat,facing the grizzly and staying quiet always worked for me.I always felt better armed but never had to use a weapon.Grizzleys are tough.A friend of mine failed to put one down once and it charged from about 60yds.I slowed it with two shots from a .375 H&H and broke it,s back on the 3rd shot.All together it was hit 6 times,3 with some .30(I cant remember what)and 3 times with a .375 and still breathing when we walked up.A headshot ended that.I personally never had any trouble putting one down out of 7 that I shot.But I believe 240gr standard .44mag loads would be light if a grizzly is in a bad mood.A .454 with a 300gr bullet and max charge or larger sounds better.There seems to be a big difference in shooting a bear or any game that isnt excited or mad and trying to stop one thats charging.

billy · 08-26-2007, 02:41 PM

gizzlies are the biggest kid on the block .
in nature they dont have to back down from anything except another bigger grizzlie.
running away isnt in the program.

SPOCAHP ANAR · 08-26-2007, 02:49 PM

I have found that it is useful when running to leave behind a big pile of crap. They don't seem to want to eat something that leaves behind that kind of smell.

08-25-2007, 11:30 AM	#1
SouthernHunter Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 19	Need some opinions here. "bear defence" Hey everyone. Quite often I head on up to Alaska and parts of Canada often with my father. I have also been offered a job in Anchorage. We often fish up there too and when the salmon, trout, ect are making their way up stream its that time of the year when the bears are out fishing (as are we). We don't bring our rifles up north with us when we fish, but I would feel a lot more comfortable knowing we had some form of protection with us in the event of a bear attack. Keep in mind, I have no intension of harming a grizzly or any other animal (except the fish we catch), but I'd like to have something with us just in the event of an attack. I've done a little bit of research, correct me if I'm wrong but I ran over some numbers.. Muzzle Energy .357 mag - 500 ft/lbs .44 mag - 900 ft/lbs .480 ruger - 1315 ft/lbs .454 casull - 1900 ft/lbs .500 S&W - 2600 ft/lbs What caliber would it take to defend oneself from a bear? My mind originally went right to a 44. mag. I also thought about the .500, which is extremely expensive to shoot and possible is an overkill. I really don't think with a 500 lbs + bear that a .500 would be an overkill but I assume you good people would know better than me. It would also be a defense weapon so I'm not going cheaping out on ammo even if the .500 is more expensive than the others (which I know it is) I'd rather buy the more expensive handgun and be better protected than cheap out anyhow. Any tips here? Also mods/admins I'm sorry if this is the wrong forum to ask this, please move it if it is.

08-25-2007, 06:17 PM	#11
Cyrille Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 1,836	You mention the big hand cannons and some long arms;the .500 is big, strong and mean and will certainly get the job done. So will the .44 magnum which is the smallest caliber I would use in that situation. However no one's mentioned the S&W .460 XVR; MSRP somewhere around $1200.00 if I'm not mistaken. It fires the .45 LC, the .454 Casull and it's own .460 cartridge. The .460 in the .460 cartridge sends a 200 gr. bullet down range @ approxamently 2300 fps according to what I've read in all the magazine articals I've seen on it. Anyway what I'm saying is if you want something a bit more powerful than the .454 Casull but not as mean as the .500 go with the .460 XVR. You may, of course, load it with heavier bullets than the 200 gr. one. Be sure to use a good reloading manuel though. Last edited by Cyrille; 08-25-2007 at 06:22 PM.

08-25-2007, 06:39 PM	#12
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 11,970 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	i would go with the .500 and a comfy holster. shotguns wont do you any good if they arent handy and it wouldnt be if you were fishing. i would get the most pistol i could possibly get! ive gone fishing in alaska and had to back off from my fish before. you hook it .... they eat it. there is no such thing as overkill with a grizzly bear. __________________ just leave britney ALONE! she's going thru a hard time snivel sniff....WAH Last edited by billy; 08-25-2007 at 06:42 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

08-25-2007, 06:49 PM	#15
ezearln Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 3,175	Bears even Grizzly bears rarely attack humans, however ALL BEARS do attack humans end of that debate, if all the critter wants is my fishin spot he is welcome to it I'll find another> But if a particular bear has become conditioned to equaling humans with food there is a possibilty of an attack, more so if you startle a sow with cubs. In Canada you aren't likely going to be able to carry a handgun regardless of the circumstances, in Alaska however if it were me I'd opt for the most powerful handgun I could handle accurately with repeat shots. I couldn't care less about all the fancy numbers neither you nor I or anyone else on the face of this planet is going to stop an Alaska Grizzly with one shot from ANY handgun ever built. I'd advise anyone in Alaska bear country to carry the most powerful handgun they can draw in haste, instinct shoot accurately and get 2-3 rounds off into their target in under 3 seconds at 20 yards. Bears all bears are incredibly fast, intelligent, powerful and lethal predators. My personal choices would be the Casull or .500 with the heaviest projectiles sitting ontop of the most powerful load the weapon and I can handle effectively. Then I'd hit the range in earnest for several sessions of "OMG" it's after me shooting. Good Luck to you (PS: Next to Texas Alaska is my favorite place on earth and in my lifetime I've been able to see alot of earths real estate) __________________ "You can have my Freedom when I'm done with it!"

08-26-2007, 12:18 AM	#16
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 11,970 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	Ive fired the .500 and it is a handful. but i shot a full cylinders worth and it didn't hurt THAT much. BTW I'm skinny ive seen em used for a grand __________________ just leave britney ALONE! she's going thru a hard time snivel sniff....WAH

08-25-2007, 12:25 PM	#2
JoeLee Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: North New York State. Posts: 1,241	I'd want the Marlin 1895 Guide Rifle in 45-70,with hand loaded ammo.If I have to shoot a Grizzly one shot is always preferable.

08-25-2007, 12:27 PM	#3
ArkansasHunter Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: South Arkansas Posts: 10,678	I would forget the 357 but any of the others would be fine. My personal choice would be the 44 magnum though the others are more powerful. I bet there's a lot of 44 magnums in use in Alaska or was before the other calibers were introduced. Maybe Mooseman will come along and share his experence...A.H

08-25-2007, 12:47 PM	#4
SouthernHunter Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 19	We usually go out in a small boat or are fly fishing so I cant really carry a rifle with me or I would bring one of ours. I have a 44. that I could bring, I was just making sure it was big enough. Hopefully it will be. I'll keep listening to some opinions though. I just need something I can carry in a holster with me while I fish. Thanks for the input guys!

08-25-2007, 01:18 PM	#5
Lng Rng Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 944	Bring the 44 Mag. if you have one. Otherwise, if I were getting a handgun specificly for the reason, I would probably get the Casull.

08-25-2007, 01:52 PM	#6
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,087	You mentioned "parts of Canada".That pretty well eleminates any kind of firearm there.As to Alaska,my experiences,it is seldom the bears (in my case,never)will really bother you.Mostly what we always did was if they got too close and wanted that spot we backed out and let them have it.As to defence,if you only have one shot make it as big as you can.That .500 kicks but in defence from grizzly,s,I doubt if I would notice.I would carry it but make sure I really had to use it before firing.Bears,like most bullys do a lot of bluffing.They seldom get too close when you are looking directly at them.If that doesnt seem to work back out slowly.Dont run. sam.

08-25-2007, 02:32 PM	#7
ArkansasHunter Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: South Arkansas Posts: 10,678	Wow Sam that was interesting...You've done that ?

08-25-2007, 04:53 PM	#9
ash Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 934 Images: 3	12 gauge with slugs.

08-25-2007, 06:45 PM	#13
Cyrille Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 1,836	Billy--- I've shot both and I can tell you that the .460 is a 'pussycat' in the recoil catagory next to the .500 a BIG pussycat true, but not a cougar.

08-25-2007, 06:47 PM	#14
A-10 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 732	Alright, SouthernHunter, first off there is no such thing as overkill. It's either dead of it isn't. I would go with the classic 44 magnum. 357 might do it, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. The ruger super redhawk would be a good choice also with the 454. The reason I leave out the larger of the handcannons is because of weight and price. I'm sure one's life is worth it. I just can't see spending over $1200 on a shiny gun that's going to be up against the Northern wilderness when you can get a more than adequate 44 mag or 454 for less than $1000. The latter choices would also make for more comfortable carry. Have you put any thought into barrell length? A longer barrell will make for higher muzzle energy if you are comfortable with a more weildy weapon.

08-26-2007, 12:45 AM	#17
ArkansasHunter Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: South Arkansas Posts: 10,678	For give my ignorance but if'in a bear were to charge and you've been watching and giveing the bear space and your prepared to draw and have to draw would'nt the blast (sound) and being hit some where on the bears body cause the bear to turn and haul azz from the blast and being hit ???

08-26-2007, 07:39 AM	#18
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,087	A.H.:Not necessarily!!!Sometimes yelling or throwing a rock might do it.But on grizzlies I dont try that because the old timers say it might make them charge.With black bears you want to yell and even advance,act threatening but grizzlies when challenged are sometimes willing to accept the challenge.A slow orderly retreat,facing the grizzly and staying quiet always worked for me.I always felt better armed but never had to use a weapon.Grizzleys are tough.A friend of mine failed to put one down once and it charged from about 60yds.I slowed it with two shots from a .375 H&H and broke it,s back on the 3rd shot.All together it was hit 6 times,3 with some .30(I cant remember what)and 3 times with a .375 and still breathing when we walked up.A headshot ended that.I personally never had any trouble putting one down out of 7 that I shot.But I believe 240gr standard .44mag loads would be light if a grizzly is in a bad mood.A .454 with a 300gr bullet and max charge or larger sounds better.There seems to be a big difference in shooting a bear or any game that isnt excited or mad and trying to stop one thats charging.

08-26-2007, 02:41 PM	#19
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 11,970 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	gizzlies are the biggest kid on the block . in nature they dont have to back down from anything except another bigger grizzlie. running away isnt in the program. __________________ just leave britney ALONE! she's going thru a hard time snivel sniff....WAH

08-26-2007, 02:49 PM	#20
SPOCAHP ANAR Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: SC-upstate Posts: 4,087 Images: 3 Blog Entries: 4	I have found that it is useful when running to leave behind a big pile of crap. They don't seem to want to eat something that leaves behind that kind of smell. __________________ Spocrest Out!..........