Best Way to Select Big Game Cartridge - Page 2

rasterman77 · 01-19-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bored2bhere

to me personally the best cartridge is in the gun you can shoot most accurate with
just saying

true nuff!!

rasterman77 · 01-22-2008, 07:23 PM

"The romance of the caliber can be enticing, but as the ghost of Jack O'Connor would affirm, they all do just about the same thing. It is all in how you use them.
Anyone who believes that a short magnum, ultra magnum, or any other cartridge variant automatically yields any substantial benefit in the field is taking severe liberties with history, physics, and common sense. The touting of a specific caliber or cartridge for normal big game hunting use is indefensible; it has never been supported by solid empirical evidence. Bullet selection and shot placement have always dwarfed the touting of individual cartridges; this remains demonstrably true today. " Randy Wakeman
I had to throw this up here too..

MOD 70 · 01-22-2008, 10:57 PM

HI,as a new member on this site, I want to say I`ve enjoyed your views on different calibers and cartridges.My personal tastes are only slightly different as my main hunting rifle for the last 20 odd years has been a Mod 70 XTR in 300 Weatherby - 2 1/2X8 Leopold Vari-X 111.I`ve rounded that out with a Mod 70 Featherwieght in 308. -4X Redfield and a Mod 70 Super Express in 375 H@H - 2 X 7 Leopold Vari-X 111.I feel the recoil subect is dependent on the individual and like snowmobiling "Anyone can ride off cliffs,not everyone should"Comments?

binfordw · 01-23-2008, 02:39 AM

I'd like to applaud the fellow (357maxim?) who mentioned 1,500-2,000 ft-lbs as "overkill"

If what your shooting does carry 1,500 ft-lbs to the target, if-or more likely, when- the bullet passes through, its not imparting all of that energy anyway. So much of that "needed" energy is simply wasted.

All that is needed is for the bullet to penetrate into the vitals. There is no real need to liquify the internals, leave a 8" hole, and shred a 6" sapling 40 yards past the target.

Ron AKA · 01-23-2008, 10:34 AM

I think the 1500 ft-lbs is a reasonable minimum for our largest North American game. You have to have some margin for error - hitting a rib or not. Otherwize you would have hunters out using their 243 or 25-06 on Moose and Grizzly at 300 yards. Whether or not that 1500+ energy is used depends on placement and bullet selection. It is true they are very important. A flat trajectory helps in getting the bullet placement. An informed hunter who switches their bullet types/weights depending on the game they are after will determine if the right bullet is used or not.

Ron

rasterman77 · 01-23-2008, 02:58 PM

1500 ft-lbs is the benchmark I've used for years as well but not sure where I picked that up. I don't think it's the end all to beat all but a benchmark nevertheless, remember the 30-30 has dispatched a remarkable amount of game with less than 1500 ft-lbs at 100 yards. The 30-30 is a benchmark in itself.. it proves that deer (and other big game) don't wear kevlar like so many big bore and magnum lovers believe.. I will refer to my last post above..

MOD 70 · 01-23-2008, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by binfordw

All that is needed is for the bullet to penetrate into the vitals. There is no real need to liquify the internals, leave a 8" hole, and shred a 6" sapling 40 yards past the target.

I agree with the point you`re making,But.exit wounds leave a much better blood trail.Good bullets placed properly should be a given.Even then I don`t see how you can still achieve flat enough trajectories at sportsman like distances ( out to 400yrds) and not exceed the 1500 ft/lbs by a large margin.Dumping a little energy on terra-firma doesn`t mean that you didn`t leave a little behind in your critter.

rasterman77 Nice buck!When did you get him.

Midas · 01-23-2008, 08:38 PM

As long as you are proficient enough with your gun to insure that the animal dies in a humane way, I don't care what ya use. I think too many folks get their panties in a bunch when someone mentions hunting with a *gulp* magnum cartridge. As long as you can hit the animal, at the ranges you intend to hunt at, use whatever you feel comfortable with.

billy · 01-23-2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lng Rng

If you need a .308 for the mice in Arkansas, you will need at least a 300 mag for the mice in Texas. Another thing for Billy to worry about! The invasion of the giant mice!

what? where? when? who? how?
jumpin jeepers!!!!!!
gawdalmighty!
and i just got my head together enough to deal with the
robotmolemenpirates!
sheeet!
i gotta upgrade my entire arsenal!!!!!!!
hmmmm where did i put that concertina wire?

thats it.
double shifts till i got a m-60

Ron AKA · 01-23-2008, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOD 70

Even then I don`t see how you can still achieve flat enough trajectories at sportsman like distances ( out to 400yrds) and not exceed the 1500 ft/lbs by a large margin.

Yep, if you are going to shoot anywhere from 50 to 300 yards (400 seems like a long way for moose and bear country), there is no way around exceeding the 1500 at the shorter ranges, and obviously no time to change loads. Lighter bullets, higher ballistic coeficients, and higher velocities are the key to a flat trajectory.

Ron

MOD 70 · 01-23-2008, 10:55 PM

Ron Thanks for your rather tactful correction on my 400yrd. comment.I meant to imply that under ideal conditions,good rest,tried and proven load,400yrds. is the maximum range that I myself feel I could take a responsible shot.Whats your views on 270gr TSX at 2800fps .Still working on loads at the range.Reloader 15 looks good.Is it just me or is my 375H@H more fun to shoot than my 300 WEATHERBY?

Lng Rng · 01-23-2008, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billy

what? where? when? who? how?
jumpin jeepers!!!!!!
gawdalmighty!
and i just got my head together enough to deal with the
robotmolemenpirates!
sheeet!
i gotta upgrade my entire arsenal!!!!!!!
hmmmm where did i put that concertina wire?

thats it.
double shifts till i got a m-60

If the Zombies unite with the robotmolemenpirates, we are done!

Ron AKA · 01-23-2008, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOD 70

Whats your views on 270gr TSX at 2800fps .Still working on loads at the range.Reloader 15 looks good.Is it just me or is my 375H@H more fun to shoot than my 300 WEATHERBY?

Yes, if you can get the bullet weight up there on the higher calibers the ballistic coeficient improves. But, unfortunately the amount a bullet drops in flight is directly related to the time it takes to get to the target. This means a flat bullet has to be a fast bullet. The combination of a heavy bullet and high speed translates to major recoil -- but lots of power of course.

This is the line of thinking that keeps dragging me back to the 6.5 to 7 mm bore range. Within that range you can pick your power (and punishment) by the case size behind it.

Ron

MOD 70 · 01-23-2008, 11:52 PM

I`m pretty impressed by what I`ve seen from the 7mmSTW.Couldn`t agree more with your thoughts on B.C. and velocity.Sectional density also plays a big role in bullet choice for me and the TSX seems to lend itself well to all these needs. Have you seen the TSX going through ballistics gelitan on Youtube? Pretty impressive.

rasterman77 · 01-24-2008, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOD 70

I agree with the point you`re making,But.exit wounds leave a much better blood trail.Good bullets placed properly should be a given.Even then I don`t see how you can still achieve flat enough trajectories at sportsman like distances ( out to 400yrds) and not exceed the 1500 ft/lbs by a large margin.Dumping a little energy on terra-firma doesn`t mean that you didn`t leave a little behind in your critter.

rasterman77 Nice buck!When did you get him.

I'm not sure how other people use the 1500 mark but I use it like this.. My 7mm-08 (personal favourite) has a maximum point blank range (MPBR) of 298 yards with Horandy L.M. and carries the 1500 to at least 400 yds. so I train and feel comfortable at taking game out to 300 yds. give or take, knowing it still has the energy to do it's job out there.

Thanks Mod70!.. I shot the Muley (183 1/8") near Greyback lake, off the 201, if you know the area (I see your from South B.C.).

MOD 70 · 01-24-2008, 10:29 PM

7mm-08 should work just fine.Picking one caliber is pretty tough if you really like guns.I would be comfortable with my 308. for an all-a-round caliber, depending what part of our province I was hunting.Province wide almost requires three individual votes,such as timbered slopes, open hillsides/large cut-blocks,and of course GRIZZLY COUNTRY.I don`t mean hunting them.Some areas a gun shot is like a dinner bell.Then I`d feel more comfortable with a little more bullet weight than either cartridge can push.I`ve met M.r. Griswold before an he can be a real prick.

By the way,a30-06 180 X-bullet @2800fps with 200yrd zero drops 21in.@400yrds .A 375 H@H 270 gr X-bullet @2800fps with 200yrd zero drops 22in. 400yrds.

rasterman77 · 01-25-2008, 01:13 PM

"7mm-08 should work just fine."
NO should about it, it works great on everything I've shot at, if I ever have issues with an animal going down I'll re-train and re-think. At the same time by no means would I think this is a great caliber for everyone, it's pricey for ammo and maybe a little light for those who get "buck fever" and shoot slightly askew on those Elk and larger game.
As far as your triple arsenal...maybe.. but I'm more of the thinking of my post on Jan.22 or that of our countries recommendations in my thread http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/big...bers-game.html (Recommended Calibers for Game) I've posted this stuff repeatedly so I will try to stop reiterating myself and find new info to support my arguments.

SwedeSteve · 01-25-2008, 04:13 PM

Gentlemen (loose usage of the term, LOL),
I have really enjoyed this thread! I must admit I have learned something from reading here. But I feel it my duty to point out a fact that has been totally missed during this delightful banter. Actually, the "Best Way to Select Big Game Catridge" is to go get your rifle, read the barrel, and Select only that cartridge!
Dutifully Yours,
Swede

rasterman77 · 01-25-2008, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwedeSteve

Gentlemen (loose usage of the term, LOL),
I have really enjoyed this thread! I must admit I have learned something from reading here. But I feel it my duty to point out a fact that has been totally missed during this delightful banter. Actually, the "Best Way to Select Big Game Catridge" is to go get your rifle, read the barrel, and Select only that cartridge!
Dutifully Yours,
Swede

Woah, that was a close one almost put that .300 everyone was raving about in my 7mm.

Thanks Swede!! Yes, the semantics of the thread would be most correctly interpreted your way!! LMAO!!

SwedeSteve · 01-25-2008, 05:08 PM

This has been one of the better threads!

01-22-2008, 07:23 PM	#22
rasterman77 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 298	"The romance of the caliber can be enticing, but as the ghost of Jack O'Connor would affirm, they all do just about the same thing. It is all in how you use them. Anyone who believes that a short magnum, ultra magnum, or any other cartridge variant automatically yields any substantial benefit in the field is taking severe liberties with history, physics, and common sense. The touting of a specific caliber or cartridge for normal big game hunting use is indefensible; it has never been supported by solid empirical evidence. Bullet selection and shot placement have always dwarfed the touting of individual cartridges; this remains demonstrably true today. " Randy Wakeman I had to throw this up here too.. __________________ 2 things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, I'm not sure about the former. Einstein

01-22-2008, 10:57 PM	#23
MOD 70 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Southern B.C. Posts: 162	New Blood HI,as a new member on this site, I want to say I`ve enjoyed your views on different calibers and cartridges.My personal tastes are only slightly different as my main hunting rifle for the last 20 odd years has been a Mod 70 XTR in 300 Weatherby - 2 1/2X8 Leopold Vari-X 111.I`ve rounded that out with a Mod 70 Featherwieght in 308. -4X Redfield and a Mod 70 Super Express in 375 H@H - 2 X 7 Leopold Vari-X 111.I feel the recoil subect is dependent on the individual and like snowmobiling "Anyone can ride off cliffs,not everyone should"Comments? Last edited by MOD 70; 01-22-2008 at 11:05 PM.

01-23-2008, 02:58 PM	#26
rasterman77 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 298	1500 ft-lbs is the benchmark I've used for years as well but not sure where I picked that up. I don't think it's the end all to beat all but a benchmark nevertheless, remember the 30-30 has dispatched a remarkable amount of game with less than 1500 ft-lbs at 100 yards. The 30-30 is a benchmark in itself.. it proves that deer (and other big game) don't wear kevlar like so many big bore and magnum lovers believe.. I will refer to my last post above.. __________________ 2 things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, I'm not sure about the former. Einstein

01-23-2008, 08:38 PM	#28
Midas Troll B' Gone Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Springdale, Arkansas Posts: 3,788 Images: 2 Blog Entries: 6	As long as you are proficient enough with your gun to insure that the animal dies in a humane way, I don't care what ya use. I think too many folks get their panties in a bunch when someone mentions hunting with a gulp magnum cartridge. As long as you can hit the animal, at the ranges you intend to hunt at, use whatever you feel comfortable with. __________________ "Recoil lasts for a second, gravity lasts forever"

01-24-2008, 10:29 PM	#36
MOD 70 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Southern B.C. Posts: 162	7mm-08 should work just fine.Picking one caliber is pretty tough if you really like guns.I would be comfortable with my 308. for an all-a-round caliber, depending what part of our province I was hunting.Province wide almost requires three individual votes,such as timbered slopes, open hillsides/large cut-blocks,and of course GRIZZLY COUNTRY.I don`t mean hunting them.Some areas a gun shot is like a dinner bell.Then I`d feel more comfortable with a little more bullet weight than either cartridge can push.I`ve met M.r. Griswold before an he can be a real prick. By the way,a30-06 180 X-bullet @2800fps with 200yrd zero drops 21in.@400yrds .A 375 H@H 270 gr X-bullet @2800fps with 200yrd zero drops 22in. 400yrds. Last edited by MOD 70; 01-24-2008 at 11:39 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

01-23-2008, 02:39 AM	#24
binfordw Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 56	I'd like to applaud the fellow (357maxim?) who mentioned 1,500-2,000 ft-lbs as "overkill" If what your shooting does carry 1,500 ft-lbs to the target, if-or more likely, when- the bullet passes through, its not imparting all of that energy anyway. So much of that "needed" energy is simply wasted. All that is needed is for the bullet to penetrate into the vitals. There is no real need to liquify the internals, leave a 8" hole, and shred a 6" sapling 40 yards past the target.

01-23-2008, 10:34 AM	#25
Ron AKA Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 704	I think the 1500 ft-lbs is a reasonable minimum for our largest North American game. You have to have some margin for error - hitting a rib or not. Otherwize you would have hunters out using their 243 or 25-06 on Moose and Grizzly at 300 yards. Whether or not that 1500+ energy is used depends on placement and bullet selection. It is true they are very important. A flat trajectory helps in getting the bullet placement. An informed hunter who switches their bullet types/weights depending on the game they are after will determine if the right bullet is used or not. Ron

01-23-2008, 10:55 PM	#31
MOD 70 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Southern B.C. Posts: 162	Ron Thanks for your rather tactful correction on my 400yrd. comment.I meant to imply that under ideal conditions,good rest,tried and proven load,400yrds. is the maximum range that I myself feel I could take a responsible shot.Whats your views on 270gr TSX at 2800fps .Still working on loads at the range.Reloader 15 looks good.Is it just me or is my 375H@H more fun to shoot than my 300 WEATHERBY?

01-23-2008, 11:52 PM	#34
MOD 70 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Southern B.C. Posts: 162	I`m pretty impressed by what I`ve seen from the 7mmSTW.Couldn`t agree more with your thoughts on B.C. and velocity.Sectional density also plays a big role in bullet choice for me and the TSX seems to lend itself well to all these needs. Have you seen the TSX going through ballistics gelitan on Youtube? Pretty impressive.

01-25-2008, 01:13 PM	#37
rasterman77 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 298	"7mm-08 should work just fine." NO should about it, it works great on everything I've shot at, if I ever have issues with an animal going down I'll re-train and re-think. At the same time by no means would I think this is a great caliber for everyone, it's pricey for ammo and maybe a little light for those who get "buck fever" and shoot slightly askew on those Elk and larger game. As far as your triple arsenal...maybe.. but I'm more of the thinking of my post on Jan.22 or that of our countries recommendations in my thread http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/big...bers-game.html (Recommended Calibers for Game) I've posted this stuff repeatedly so I will try to stop reiterating myself and find new info to support my arguments. __________________ 2 things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, I'm not sure about the former. Einstein Last edited by rasterman77; 01-25-2008 at 01:15 PM.

01-25-2008, 04:13 PM	#38
SwedeSteve Bullet Maintenance !! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The anchor point, Alaska Posts: 10,300 Images: 1	Gentlemen (loose usage of the term, LOL), I have really enjoyed this thread! I must admit I have learned something from reading here. But I feel it my duty to point out a fact that has been totally missed during this delightful banter. Actually, the "Best Way to Select Big Game Catridge" is to go get your rifle, read the barrel, and Select only that cartridge! Dutifully Yours, Swede __________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers

01-25-2008, 05:08 PM	#40
SwedeSteve Bullet Maintenance !! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The anchor point, Alaska Posts: 10,300 Images: 1	This has been one of the better threads! __________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers