Bear hunting and the shoulder shot

killer · 03-04-2008, 07:31 PM

I have taken head shots. I believe they are easier than taking a shoulder shot correctly. But things can go horribly wrong with a head shot too. An improper angle on the bears skull can cause the bullet to ricochet, although it knocks the bear out temporarily. Sooner or later we will have someone come forth on this post and tell us it happened to them. It was quite a comical story with my buddy who was a crack shot with his .44 mag revolver. Before I start that story here's a couple pic's of a bear skull skinned. The round hole is from my .44 mag as I walked up on the bear still alive. I was shooting above the bear who was in no mood to fight.

This next pic shows why I think a bullet can bounce off a bears skull...esp if the bear was looking at you; the slope.

I have a lengthy article I paid $2.97 to the Montana Falls Tribune archives which supposedly talks about a grizzly with cubs that survived a head shot. I don't doubt it got a concussion as did my buddies bear.

My buddy was down wind in a ground blind watching an active bait station. A sow came in with cubs which he never saw due to the weeds. He could not clearly see the sow to shoot and he reasoned he would get the bear to look up at him and take a head shot. He whistled, and she not only looked up...she stood up and looked at him. He fired right between the eyes and she fell over onto one of the cubs pinning it. The cub began to squeal, and the remaining cub began doing circles around mama and the sibling. It was then my buddy became aware of the cubs.

He approached with his gun holstered, I don't know why but he concluded the sow bear was obviously dead. The squealing cub finally got free and it also was running in circles around mama bear and my buddy who was now somewhat distracted by the two cubs running in circles around him. The sow woke up having only been knocked unconscious and before my friend could even clear leather all three bears were gone.

I helped searched with my buddy and we never found one drop of blood. The sow had smashed through old cedar stumps and low brush in her haste to get away and we lost the hasty obvious retreat after about 40 yards. The local Indian Game Warden on the Res laughed at us when we told him, and cited an instance of a 300 Win mag doing the same thing.

I know this sounds like "Rilpleys Believe it or Not" but I repeat it simply as a witness to what I observed. Whether it be a "whale of a tale" I do not know. And like I say sooner or later we will probably have someone tell us he knocked a bear out with a head shot. I would think among dog bear hunters this would be known since the bear is looking down on the hunter.

What say dog bear hunters?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Getting back to the shoulder shot I can see why someone would prefer to not have to put 6 rounds from a .340 Weatherby into a monster bear and try to put it down with the first shot but...isn't it interesting that the "head shot" has not been filtered down to the lower 48 as the one shot stopper?

It is the shoulder shot.

And just to clarify again I think a lung shot is the best shot. But I'm trying to stimulate a little debate and get some expertise on why other shots do and don't work. I'm definitely interested in individuals that take the shoulder shot...pro's and con's they have seen with the shoulder shot and hope I don't appear to be picking on the shoulder shot. I just think it is tough to make properly.

Brother Bob · 03-04-2008, 08:25 PM

Most of us are looking for a trophy. Bears with half there heads missing just doesn't bring out much conversation or aestheticallly pleasing,"oohs and aahs" when ogled by the visitors and neighbors. Would you not agree? We in the lower 48 will only make, maybe one bear hunting trip to Alaska in our lifetime. It costs tens of thousands of dollars to go on one of these guided hunts and the last thing we want is a mutilated bear head as a reminder. Now if I pop a big browny in the shoulder and chest and he decides to be uncooperative and bring the fight to me, I'll be waiting with my .44 mag. to "off" the bruin before he "offs" me. I guess if I lived up there and was a substanance hunter, a head shot would be a consideration if the bear was within dancing distance of me.

rdale501 · 03-05-2008, 02:46 PM

Killer.....I did the exact oposite of what you are suggesting. I took a walking away shot and bounced a 300 win mag off the back of a large black bear. It was knocked out and rolled a couple hundred yards toward the river. I was sure I would find it dead not far from where I saw it last. No such luck 3 of us looked for about 5 hours, and there wasn't even any blood. Lesson leaned.

Mooseman684 · 03-05-2008, 03:00 PM

Killer, one problem with the skull picture and possible bullet bouncing scenario is You have the Bear looking skyward...They dont do that often , they have their nose down and their eyes Forward looking right at you like the Previous bear...almost vertical target, and since there is skin and fur there that is soft , a bullet won't ricochet off the skull, which is way thinner than a shoulder or leg bone...shoot em right between the eyes up an inch or 2 with a fast bullet and they Drop like a rock...
Rich

mtm1 · 03-05-2008, 08:32 PM

Another reason bullets are thought to bounce off Bear skulls is that the actual skull is quite small on top. When you skin out a Bear skull you'll notice that the huge jaw muscles make up quite a bit if the area between the ears. You can shoot through meat and not hit bone if you go off center much.

AKHunter · 03-05-2008, 09:33 PM

A friend of mine once shot a black bear in the head just below the left eye. We had just finished talking about our plans ( we were splitting up
for the days hunt ). As I went away from him, downhill, he went uphill. I didnt get 75 yards away when I heard his gun go off. Just over the top of the hill was a bear eating blueberries. At 10 paces he hit this bear with a 250 grain bullet from a .35 Whelen, shattered the left side of the skull, the neck/spine and out the right shoulder. That bear never new what happened to it.

mtm1 · 03-05-2008, 10:08 PM

Yup, the whelen's a very suitable big game round. Though to be honest at ten paces most rounds would do somewhat similar damage, includeing the 25-06.

pruneemac · 03-06-2008, 01:56 AM

I've seen both ends of the rainbow. A friend made a shoulder shot on a big boar and the 200 Gr. trophy bonded bear claw broke the shoulder, ran down the rib cage and exited the hide at the hip. We had a very scarry time recovering a 3 legged bear that was really pissed off. I hunt bear with a bow and of the half dozen bear I've killed the farthest one has gone is about 40 yds. With a bow you must hit the heart lung. Its a pass through shot and more effective than any rifle shot I've seen, but I dont know why. This year a friend is bringing a MZL which should be fun. Big and slow should be pretty good in the boiler room. If I was going to make a shouder shot I would use Barnes Solids. I want as much penetration as possible.

thats my 2 cents

Wingwiper · 03-10-2008, 11:51 AM

Killer

Great story and great logic, but in my neck of the woods we have Black Bear and although our state record is now over 700 pounds, that is the extreme exception.

I still prefer Head shots and although I am not the Expert Bear hunter on this thread, I would still go for the head and if my round richochetted, then by the Jesum I am going to the gun shop and ask some important questions related to WHY......

Brother Bob · 03-11-2008, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wingwiper

Killer

Great story and great logic, but in my neck of the woods we have Black Bear and although our state record is now over 700 pounds, that is the extreme exception.

I still prefer Head shots and although I am not the Expert Bear hunter on this thread, I would still go for the head and if my round richochetted, then by the Jesum I am going to the gun shop and ask some important questions related to WHY......

If bullets richochett off water, why would you question something even tougher, like a bear's skull?

Wingwiper · 03-12-2008, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Bob

If bullets richochett off water, why would you question something even tougher, like a bear's skull?

Geez! I didn't know I was questioning.

I still go for the head shots and have not had one richochett yet, never said I never would.

The richochette off of water is usually at a less than 45 degree angle. I don't think I would be shooting a Bear at less than a 45 degree angle, maybe, never know........

In my state the range of the shot is hardly ever over 100 yds and when I speak of not shooting a bear at less than a 45 degree angle, I am speaking of plane of barrel to surface of the impact. I have never had my .308 richochette yet and I have no doubt the chance of probabilty is there. Still I prefer the head shot...

vikingpreacher · 03-12-2008, 10:36 AM

I actually got the right spot on the shoulder. Shocked myself.

samuel · 03-12-2008, 12:55 PM

Any one of these shots may become a necessity and should be studied by all.In the meantime if I can get a clean double lung shot,that is where the bullet is going.This is because it has worked so well on so many ocasions and there is no chance of riccochettes or bullet failure from striking hard bone.I still believe that if an animal cant breath,it aint going far. sam.

Brother Bob · 03-12-2008, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wingwiper

Geez! I didn't know I was questioning.

I still go for the head shots and have not had one richochett yet, never said I never would.

The richochette off of water is usually at a less than 45 degree angle. I don't think I would be shooting a Bear at less than a 45 degree angle, maybe, never know........

In my state the range of the shot is hardly ever over 100 yds and when I speak of not shooting a bear at less than a 45 degree angle, I am speaking of plane of barrel to surface of the impact. I have never had my .308 richochette yet and I have no doubt the chance of probabilty is there. Still I prefer the head shot...

Dad gummit! I did it again! I get caught up in this stuff and "quote" the wrong person! Sorry Wingwiper.

Wingwiper · 03-13-2008, 09:30 AM

Brother Bob

No problem..

Killer has introduced some great points and has Photos for back up and I find this thread to be rather interesting. I am reading points, I would have NEVER thought of in years of hunting on my own. It is good to hear challenges to certain ways and hear the logic behind the reasoning.

I was brought up to have respect and mercy for the animal and was taught to do Head shots. I have never considered any other type of shot and am not sure, if I were asked if I could even point out where the Heart, lungs etc would be at different angles. The head is always plain to see. So I am reading both sides with interest.

I also felt my .308, as long as I didn't select a hollow point or a soft tip would have the penetrating power, even at a angle, to penetrate a skull of any animal found in my state and at the yardage I would probably shoot at.

Killer brought up a photo and made a really interesting point about richochetting. I challenge that, not to argue, but to see how solid my logic is and to hear from people with more experience why I may have to change my technique. I really do not want to change my techniques unless I hear some convincing argument why I should. Killer has definetely made me do some serious thinking.

CroMagnum · 03-13-2008, 03:58 PM

This is where I would aim if it were me shooting this bear.

mtm1 · 03-14-2008, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CroMagnum

This is where I would aim if it were me shooting this bear.

He'll definatly be laying around for the finisher with that placement.
Wingwiper, head sots are alright at close ranges where shot placement is absolutely positive. Other than that no way dude. Too much chance for something really ugly to happen.

sbowers5 · 03-14-2008, 05:46 PM

I'm with sam all the others are good when they work properly but the double lung shot is always right and always fatal, if it can't breath it can't live. Just my opinion.
steve

CroMagnum · 03-14-2008, 06:31 PM

The reasoning that I see behind the shoulder shot is to break down the bears wheels, if he can't move he can't attack you or get into heavy brush where he stands a better chance of exacting his revenge when you go in for a follow up shot. Now hunting off a treestand over baits I would go for the lung shot every time.

samuel · 03-14-2008, 06:39 PM

There is nothing wrong with hunting from a stand.I have never done it myself.I have shot one bear from 15' and still used the double lung shot.the bear wallowed around some but was dead instantly. sam.

03-04-2008, 07:31 PM	#21
killer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: In the rat race Posts: 926 Images: 6	I have taken head shots. I believe they are easier than taking a shoulder shot correctly. But things can go horribly wrong with a head shot too. An improper angle on the bears skull can cause the bullet to ricochet, although it knocks the bear out temporarily. Sooner or later we will have someone come forth on this post and tell us it happened to them. It was quite a comical story with my buddy who was a crack shot with his .44 mag revolver. Before I start that story here's a couple pic's of a bear skull skinned. The round hole is from my .44 mag as I walked up on the bear still alive. I was shooting above the bear who was in no mood to fight. This next pic shows why I think a bullet can bounce off a bears skull...esp if the bear was looking at you; the slope. I have a lengthy article I paid $2.97 to the Montana Falls Tribune archives which supposedly talks about a grizzly with cubs that survived a head shot. I don't doubt it got a concussion as did my buddies bear. My buddy was down wind in a ground blind watching an active bait station. A sow came in with cubs which he never saw due to the weeds. He could not clearly see the sow to shoot and he reasoned he would get the bear to look up at him and take a head shot. He whistled, and she not only looked up...she stood up and looked at him. He fired right between the eyes and she fell over onto one of the cubs pinning it. The cub began to squeal, and the remaining cub began doing circles around mama and the sibling. It was then my buddy became aware of the cubs. He approached with his gun holstered, I don't know why but he concluded the sow bear was obviously dead. The squealing cub finally got free and it also was running in circles around mama bear and my buddy who was now somewhat distracted by the two cubs running in circles around him. The sow woke up having only been knocked unconscious and before my friend could even clear leather all three bears were gone. I helped searched with my buddy and we never found one drop of blood. The sow had smashed through old cedar stumps and low brush in her haste to get away and we lost the hasty obvious retreat after about 40 yards. The local Indian Game Warden on the Res laughed at us when we told him, and cited an instance of a 300 Win mag doing the same thing. I know this sounds like "Rilpleys Believe it or Not" but I repeat it simply as a witness to what I observed. Whether it be a "whale of a tale" I do not know. And like I say sooner or later we will probably have someone tell us he knocked a bear out with a head shot. I would think among dog bear hunters this would be known since the bear is looking down on the hunter. What say dog bear hunters? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Getting back to the shoulder shot I can see why someone would prefer to not have to put 6 rounds from a .340 Weatherby into a monster bear and try to put it down with the first shot but...isn't it interesting that the "head shot" has not been filtered down to the lower 48 as the one shot stopper? It is the shoulder shot. And just to clarify again I think a lung shot is the best shot. But I'm trying to stimulate a little debate and get some expertise on why other shots do and don't work. I'm definitely interested in individuals that take the shoulder shot...pro's and con's they have seen with the shoulder shot and hope I don't appear to be picking on the shoulder shot. I just think it is tough to make properly. __________________ "Yeee Hawww...I'm a cowboy on an iron horse." Killer's cabin: http://buckmountainchateau.com/ Last edited by killer; 03-04-2008 at 07:33 PM.

03-05-2008, 03:00 PM	#24
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness Posts: 10,524 Images: 2	Killer, one problem with the skull picture and possible bullet bouncing scenario is You have the Bear looking skyward...They dont do that often , they have their nose down and their eyes Forward looking right at you like the Previous bear...almost vertical target, and since there is skin and fur there that is soft , a bullet won't ricochet off the skull, which is way thinner than a shoulder or leg bone...shoot em right between the eyes up an inch or 2 with a fast bullet and they Drop like a rock... Rich __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM!

03-06-2008, 01:56 AM	#28
pruneemac Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: CA Posts: 65	My 2 cents I've seen both ends of the rainbow. A friend made a shoulder shot on a big boar and the 200 Gr. trophy bonded bear claw broke the shoulder, ran down the rib cage and exited the hide at the hip. We had a very scarry time recovering a 3 legged bear that was really pissed off. I hunt bear with a bow and of the half dozen bear I've killed the farthest one has gone is about 40 yds. With a bow you must hit the heart lung. Its a pass through shot and more effective than any rifle shot I've seen, but I dont know why. This year a friend is bringing a MZL which should be fun. Big and slow should be pretty good in the boiler room. If I was going to make a shouder shot I would use Barnes Solids. I want as much penetration as possible. thats my 2 cents

03-12-2008, 10:36 AM	#32
vikingpreacher Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Iowa Posts: 269	I actually got the right spot on the shoulder. Shocked myself. __________________ Join the cartridge comparisons group! http://gunandgame.com/forums/group.php?groupid=3

03-13-2008, 09:30 AM	#35
Wingwiper Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 789	Brother Bob No problem.. Killer has introduced some great points and has Photos for back up and I find this thread to be rather interesting. I am reading points, I would have NEVER thought of in years of hunting on my own. It is good to hear challenges to certain ways and hear the logic behind the reasoning. I was brought up to have respect and mercy for the animal and was taught to do Head shots. I have never considered any other type of shot and am not sure, if I were asked if I could even point out where the Heart, lungs etc would be at different angles. The head is always plain to see. So I am reading both sides with interest. I also felt my .308, as long as I didn't select a hollow point or a soft tip would have the penetrating power, even at a angle, to penetrate a skull of any animal found in my state and at the yardage I would probably shoot at. Killer brought up a photo and made a really interesting point about richochetting. I challenge that, not to argue, but to see how solid my logic is and to hear from people with more experience why I may have to change my technique. I really do not want to change my techniques unless I hear some convincing argument why I should. Killer has definetely made me do some serious thinking. Last edited by Wingwiper; 03-13-2008 at 09:32 AM.

03-04-2008, 08:25 PM	#22
Brother Bob The Mayor Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Olive Branch, MS. Posts: 3,046 Blog Entries: 3	Most of us are looking for a trophy. Bears with half there heads missing just doesn't bring out much conversation or aestheticallly pleasing,"oohs and aahs" when ogled by the visitors and neighbors. Would you not agree? We in the lower 48 will only make, maybe one bear hunting trip to Alaska in our lifetime. It costs tens of thousands of dollars to go on one of these guided hunts and the last thing we want is a mutilated bear head as a reminder. Now if I pop a big browny in the shoulder and chest and he decides to be uncooperative and bring the fight to me, I'll be waiting with my .44 mag. to "off" the bruin before he "offs" me. I guess if I lived up there and was a substanance hunter, a head shot would be a consideration if the bear was within dancing distance of me.

03-05-2008, 02:46 PM	#23
rdale501 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: oregon Posts: 420	Killer.....I did the exact oposite of what you are suggesting. I took a walking away shot and bounced a 300 win mag off the back of a large black bear. It was knocked out and rolled a couple hundred yards toward the river. I was sure I would find it dead not far from where I saw it last. No such luck 3 of us looked for about 5 hours, and there wasn't even any blood. Lesson leaned.

03-05-2008, 08:32 PM	#25
mtm1 Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Southern B.C. Posts: 86	Another reason bullets are thought to bounce off Bear skulls is that the actual skull is quite small on top. When you skin out a Bear skull you'll notice that the huge jaw muscles make up quite a bit if the area between the ears. You can shoot through meat and not hit bone if you go off center much.

03-05-2008, 09:33 PM	#26
AKHunter Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 899	A friend of mine once shot a black bear in the head just below the left eye. We had just finished talking about our plans ( we were splitting up for the days hunt ). As I went away from him, downhill, he went uphill. I didnt get 75 yards away when I heard his gun go off. Just over the top of the hill was a bear eating blueberries. At 10 paces he hit this bear with a 250 grain bullet from a .35 Whelen, shattered the left side of the skull, the neck/spine and out the right shoulder. That bear never new what happened to it.

03-05-2008, 10:08 PM	#27
mtm1 Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Southern B.C. Posts: 86	Yup, the whelen's a very suitable big game round. Though to be honest at ten paces most rounds would do somewhat similar damage, includeing the 25-06.

03-10-2008, 11:51 AM	#29
Wingwiper Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 789	Killer Great story and great logic, but in my neck of the woods we have Black Bear and although our state record is now over 700 pounds, that is the extreme exception. I still prefer Head shots and although I am not the Expert Bear hunter on this thread, I would still go for the head and if my round richochetted, then by the Jesum I am going to the gun shop and ask some important questions related to WHY......

03-12-2008, 12:55 PM	#33
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,185	Any one of these shots may become a necessity and should be studied by all.In the meantime if I can get a clean double lung shot,that is where the bullet is going.This is because it has worked so well on so many ocasions and there is no chance of riccochettes or bullet failure from striking hard bone.I still believe that if an animal cant breath,it aint going far. sam.

03-14-2008, 05:46 PM	#38
sbowers5 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: sawyer, ok Posts: 603	I'm with sam all the others are good when they work properly but the double lung shot is always right and always fatal, if it can't breath it can't live. Just my opinion. steve __________________ For those who never fought for it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know.

03-14-2008, 06:31 PM	#39
CroMagnum Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 83	The reasoning that I see behind the shoulder shot is to break down the bears wheels, if he can't move he can't attack you or get into heavy brush where he stands a better chance of exacting his revenge when you go in for a follow up shot. Now hunting off a treestand over baits I would go for the lung shot every time.

03-14-2008, 06:39 PM	#40
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,185	There is nothing wrong with hunting from a stand.I have never done it myself.I have shot one bear from 15' and still used the double lung shot.the bear wallowed around some but was dead instantly. sam.