270wsm, 280rem or 338fed for Elk?

[kdyson]

I have been on many elk hunts and seen Elk killed with a 270 on up. Of the last two elk i have shot, the first was with an 30-06. 75 yards he stopped and I put a 180 grain factory winchester fail safe in his bread box. He jumped then looked around. Father in law screams "hit him again"! Number two an inch from the other. I could see to golf ball sized red spots on his fur. He starts running and father in law misses him at 25 yards with 416 rem. He cant hit crap with that cannon. We tracked him up an over a very tall ridge with a saddle and down in the next canyon. Easy half mile away guy dumps him with a 45-70. Says to us he was blowing blood out his mouth the whole way.
Last hunt was a shot across canyon at least 250 yds plus with a stiff wind left two right. Hit him wiht factory 300 remington ultra mag 180 corelock ammo.slightly quartering went through lung and blew off far shoulder. I mean blew it off! down for the count right there. Many good friends have had no problems with tuff shots using the various 300 mags. They have my vote!

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob

A .243 may kill an elk, but only an idiot would use one.

Never said hunt with a 243, . . . . . . . . . . I said a 243 would kill them.

Best,
Phil
______________________________
Stay out of sight and down wind
Professional Hunter ~ Tanzania

[rdale501]

Originally Posted by kdyson

I have been on many elk hunts and seen Elk killed with a 270 on up. Of the last two elk i have shot, the first was with an 30-06. 75 yards he stopped and I put a 180 grain factory winchester fail safe in his bread box. He jumped then looked around. Father in law screams "hit him again"! Number two an inch from the other. I could see to golf ball sized red spots on his fur. He starts running and father in law misses him at 25 yards with 416 rem. He cant hit crap with that cannon. We tracked him up an over a very tall ridge with a saddle and down in the next canyon. Easy half mile away guy dumps him with a 45-70. Says to us he was blowing blood out his mouth the whole way.
Last hunt was a shot across canyon at least 250 yds plus with a stiff wind left two right. Hit him wiht factory 300 remington ultra mag 180 corelock ammo.slightly quartering went through lung and blew off far shoulder. I mean blew it off! down for the count right there. Many good friends have had no problems with tuff shots using the various 300 mags. They have my vote!

I have had almost the exact same things happen to me starting with first elk and a 30-06 and ending up with a 300win mag. My story would almost be word for word with yours. Small world.

[turner]

Originally Posted by toolman

Or you could just use an 8x57 Mauser which is pretty well identical to the .338 Fed less .015 in dia.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the .338 Fed is just a slightly new spin on an old cartridge.

I own 2 very nice 8x57 Mauser's and they ARE great rifles for game up to the size of elk. I simply think that the .338 Fed seems to be a good size for the parent .308 case. It's only a couple of years old, but already has more loads available than the .358 which also is a great round. The .338 size seems to be more efficient and even compared to the L/A .338/06, it's apparent that it is a VERY efficient case and caliber and can be very useful. Especially if handloaded to say 2400-2500 with a fast opening 200gr bullet, it would simply be a hammer on deer-sized game without excessive recoil. Bullets and brass (.308) are readily available to all, and any number of variations can be developed by handloaders. The big thing that puts the .338Fed a notch above the .358, 8x57 and 338/06 is that it's available in Tikka, Sako and Ruger bolt guns, ALL quality guns. If and when Browning adds it to their BAR and BLR lines, it should ensure it's long-term existence.

[Onesonek]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob

Why do you all got to be so darn difficult? They were killing elk with .30-06's and .300 Winmags long before these "new and improved" calibers came out. Elk are not that hard to kill. You simply don't need a .338 or larger to kill one. Another thing to keep in mind, unless you reload, these shells may be hard to find. A .30-06, 180 gr. bullet will go plumb through a grizzly bears shoulders and kick up dirt behind him. Why put your shoulder through the recoil of anything bigger? Leave the .338's and larger for the great bears and moose. By the way, I own a .338 and a .375 H&H. I wouldn't consider either for elk, but that's just me. LOL!

I agree with the "old standbys" of the .30-06 and .300 win mag. But I disagree with the easy part. Elk can be very tenacious! A lot depends on the situation at hand. I have seen unsuspecting elk drop like a rock with a .30-06 broadside lung shot. Then again if pressured or alerted, I have seen them go a 1/4 mile with a heart shot from the same. Going to a bigger round won't necessarily change that, but can't hurt. Although, in my experience bigger seems to work a little better in most cases. I really kinda think the .338-06 is about ideal for elk provided one isn't looking at extreme range.

Dave

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

Something to consider (when talking about bullet ballistics/performance) is Penetration Index (P.I.).

The easy way to calculate P.I.;

Example for a 416 ~

PI = 124.2 * (vel/2400)^2 * (wt./400)^2 / (dia./.416)^4

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

For the 450 N.E. and the 470 N.E. below.

For the 480 gr. bullet at 2150 fps, PI = 105.5

For the 470 NE, 2150 fps, 500 gr., PI= 92.2

Like most formulas, it likes velocity.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

Reading through this topic, I noticed a few references to E=MC2.

And just to stir the pot further, I do not doubt Einstein theory, however, it is only a hypothesis.

And is only considered to be correct, as it has not been totally proven.

Best,
Phil
____________________________



Forgot to include comment for "Shock Power Index" (SPI).

Which is calculating the kinetic energy, by the cross sectional area of the bullet.

X SA =pie x R2

Basically, this is how hard of a blow the bullet gives when striking the animal.

Penetration of some large bores (over 50 cal.) seem to lack penetration, and at the same time have a large SPI.

Examples I have seen ~ If a brain shot is missed on an Elephant with a 375 H&H, the Ele will run off without much visual effect of the bullet strike.

However, the same shot with say a 600 N.E. (not nearly the highest on the penetration Index), you can visually see the effect of the bullet impact as it stuns and disorients the Elephant.

You may or may not be able to relate to this example, but think about it a bit. I think most would agree, there is a noticeable difference when shooting an Elk at 200 yards with a 338 Win. Mag than when using a 7mm Mag..

Granted, this formula, as with the kinetic energy formula being stacked in favor of velocity, is stacked in favor of bullet diameter (but velocity does play a very important role here as well, as it uses kinetic energy in part of the formula.

Personally, I think this is quite an important equation when choosing a cartridge/caliber for a specific animal.

JMO

Best,
Phil
____________________________
Professional Hunter ~ Tanzania

Stay out of sight and down wind

Phil Lozano Tanzania Trophy Expeditions - Dangerous Game Specialists

You do the math.

[turner]

QUOTE:
I agree with the "old standbys" of the .30-06 and .300 win mag. But I disagree with the easy part. Elk can be very tenacious! A lot depends on the situation at hand. I have seen unsuspecting elk drop like a rock with a .30-06 broadside lung shot. Then again if pressured or alerted, I have seen them go a 1/4 mile with a heart shot from the same. Going to a bigger round won't necessarily change that, but can't hurt. Although, in my experience bigger seems to work a little better in most cases. I really kinda think the .338-06 is about ideal for elk provided one isn't looking at extreme range.

Dave

I agree, and think the fuss about someone feeling that a .338fed or 338/06 is NOT a good elk round when a .280 or '06 is, is pure unadulturated hogwash. I happen to own all four and the difference in recoil is more driven by the particular rifle than the caliber among these four, for the most part. That being said, I'm agreeing with Dave here and using a 338/06 out of those mentioned... only problem is that the original posting didn't mention the .270, 7mmMag, .30/06, .338WM or the .338/06. Only the .338 Fed among those calibers. The neat thing about the .338 Fed is supposed to be 30/06 recoil with a bigger bullet and punch for larger(?) animals. I tend to agree with JUST that!

[.280Rem]

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

I would pick the .280 out of the choices listed.

Ron

Me too, but I've never hunted elk, so what do I know? And of the 3, I see no real niche that the 338Fed filled. I really don't get it.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by .280Rem

I see no real niche that the 338Fed filled. I really don't get it.

If you do the math, it will come to you in a flash !.

In short, larger diameter bullets strike a harder blow than smaller diameter bullets (velocity being equal). That is not the only equation that comes into play when choosing a rifle cartridge, but one that is quite important.

Diameter and bullet weight counts !

As fine a cartridge as the 280 Remmie is, it is not suitable for all the game animals in No, America, and neither is a 7 mag..

I have shot 2 Elk with a 280, but would not choose it again should I ever go Elk hunting again. The second Elk I shot with a 280, confirmed the first time I used it for Elk. Yes, it does kill Elk, however, if the shot is not exactly broadside, it is lacking, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

"Shock Power Index" (SPI).

Which is calculating the kinetic energy, by the cross sectional area of the bullet.

X SA =pie x R2


Best,
Phil
____________________________
Professional Hunter ~ Tanzania

Stay out of sight and down wind

Phil Lozano Tanzania Trophy Expeditions - Dangerous Game Specialists

[.280Rem]

Phil, what I dont get about the 338 Fed is that it filled no niche in my opinion other than to put the .338 bullet in a short action. The 338WM, 338-06, 325WSM, and maybe soon a factory .338WSM. What will the .338Fed do that those wont? The .325WSM is a SA chambering, with ballistics that beat the .338Fed all over with similar wt bullets, and higher sectional density in like wt bullets.

By way of comparison of the .280 and 338Fed I took the numbers below from the ballistics for Federal's factory loads. On elk sized game, I'd say the 338Fed has some advantages over the .280Rem. That advantage in energy is quickly lost at around 300 yards. With 200 more ft lbs of energy and less frontal area, I'd suspect that the 160 grain .280 bullet would penetrate more than the 210 338 at 500yds, which is not an uncommon shot distance on elk as I understand it. I disagree with you on one point. I think the .280 is fine for all NA game shy of Big Brown Bears, but I concede that you're experience trumps mine. I'm only going on what I've read by some that have done a lot of hunting with the .280 on game larger than deer. I can assure you I wouldn't go looking for a big brownie with a .338Fed in hand, but then I've never had the opportunity to.

.280, 140grs,

MV/ME: 3000/2798,
at 300yds: 2436/1845
at 500yds: 2098/1368

338Fed 180gr

MV/ME: 2830/3201
at 300: 2134/1820
at 500: 1732/1199

.280 160gr

MV/ME: 2800/2785
at 300: 2294/1870
at 500: 1988/1404

338Fed 210

MV/ME: 2630/3225
at 300: 2007/1878
at 500: 1648/1266

[turner]

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

You do the math.

Phil, Upon seeing this initial posting and figuring the decision being between a .270WSM and .338Fed, I used the same(?) formula to simply figure the frontal area of a mushroomed bullet. Figuring a quality bullet such as the Nosler Partition and that it would, as I believe is common, mushroom to twice the original diameter and again using the formula: Pi times the radius(squared)= surface area of that circle(mushroomed bullet). My answer was .358 sq.in. for the .338 and .240 sq.in. for the .270(.277 bullet). Personally, I find this fact significant, that the mushroomed bullet is fully 50% bigger in surface area for all intents and purposes (.358" vs .360") I'm not necessarily an Elmer over Jack kind of guy, but on a round that's as efficient and shows ballistics as close to a .280 out to 350 yds or more, this surface area thing does it for me. Just my opinion.

[bs1865]

I sure appreciate all of the feedback received thus far. Bases upon visual calculation from the post, the .338 federal is the hands down winner of the 3 options I proposed. I thought the .270wsm would have gotten more run. As stated before, I proposed those three based upon by limited experience in high energy/high recoil cartridges plus wanting a caliber that I could put to use when I return home hunting in Texas. Obviously, there can be a SEVERAL cartridges that can be effective for various needs.

To open up the discussions and help me hone my decision on not only my limited options I proposed, I would like to hear about other (some already have) cartridges that would fit the bill of for solid elk caliber with appeal for the CXP2 deer and hog I hunt back home.

I really am a fan of short action cartridges as that is where my experience is...7mm-08, 243, etc. But have also used .270, 30-30 to take CXP2 game.

Others that come to my mind are 7mm Mag, .300wsm, 30-06. Would anyone make a case for these or others that fit the bill over the .338?

Thanks again, you have been a great help!!

[.280Rem]

Originally Posted by bs1865

I sure appreciate all of the feedback received thus far. Bases upon visual calculation from the post, the .338 federal is the hands down winner of the 3 options I proposed. I thought the .270wsm would have gotten more run. As stated before, I proposed those three based upon by limited experience in high energy/high recoil cartridges plus wanting a caliber that I could put to use when I return home hunting in Texas. Obviously, there can be a SEVERAL cartridges that can be effective for various needs.

To open up the discussions and help me hone my decision on not only my limited options I proposed, I would like to hear about other (some already have) cartridges that would fit the bill of for solid elk caliber with appeal for the CXP2 deer and hog I hunt back home.

I really am a fan of short action cartridges as that is where my experience is...7mm-08, 243, etc. But have also used .270, 30-30 to take CXP2 game.

Others that come to my mind are 7mm Mag, .300wsm, 30-06. Would anyone make a case for these or others that fit the bill over the .338?

Thanks again, you have been a great help!!

I can think of many choices I'd take over the .338Fed for most all game...in short or long action. But that's just me.

[bs1865]

.280Rem

Please tell more...

[turner]

Originally Posted by .280Rem

I can think of many choices I'd take over the .338Fed for most all game...in short or long action. But that's just me.

Well, if you'll take a look at the ballistics and consider the difference in the bullet size, and 50% more frontal area after contact with game, and still explain to me how a .280 could possibly be better on any game bigger than deer, please explain, post haste! There is no loading for a .280 with over 3,000FPE at muzzle save a 140gr LM load. Thanks, I prefer the 210gr with 3200+ FPE of the .338. The frontal area of a mushroomed .338Fed is 50% larger than a .280 ....FIFTY PERCENT!!! Have you ever fired a .338 fed? The recoil of this round while being significantly more powerful, by any measure, is so close to a HOT .280, as to be unnoticeable. I own both these two calibers in the same rifle...Ruger 77 with SS and laminate stock. To say a .280, he**, even a .280 A.I., is as good on big gane as a .338 Fed. is simply B.S. I love my TWO .280s but I know better, sorry, and I'll further suggest you take a serious look at ballistics tables.

[bs1865]

Turner,

Looks like my over the counter options for a .338 Federal are Sako, Tikka, Ruger Hawkeye or another barrel for my Encore. You obviously have experience with the .338 in a Ruger rifle. If given the option, would you purchase a Ruger again. Please explain why or why not.

Thanks!
bs1865

[GlockMeister]

I'm no expert, but after reading up on the .338 Federal and seeing the many gun shows do episodes on it, show the ballistics results from it, and dam close to the 30-06 and what the praise they gave it, I'd have to say that's what I'd get if I could afford and or had the chance to get. I think it only came up an 1 1/2"s shorter or went an 1 1/2"s farther then the 30-06 into the ballistics gel.

Give it a good long hard look into. Can't go wrong with the .338 Federal at all...

Kimber makes an 84M Montana rifle for the .338 Federal also. Think there's also an AR-10T available as well. I remember John Scouten having both or showing both when they did their show on the cartridge...

If fact, found this...
27-09 FEDERAL

The Armalite AR-10T is way up there in price, like about $2400 buckaroos. But the Kimber 84M is a great rifle for that round.

[Phil Lozano]

I chose the 338 Federal only because those were the cartridges you had listed.

If I were choosing an Elk catridge, I'd go with the 338 Win. Mag or the 358 Norma Mag, both with 250 grain bullets (both fine cartridges), as I have said before.

If not going with a Mag. cartridge, I'd look at the 35 Whelen (don't know if anyone chambers for the 338 '06) with 250 grain bullets.

I use my 35 Whelen in Africa to back clients on plains game hunts, and to 200 yards . . . . it is DEADLY ! It is not a long range cartridge, but to 200 yards, for me, with 250 grain bullets, it works like magic.

The 35 Whelen has little recoil and mine will shoot sub MOA groups for as long as you want to sit at the bench.

In my opinion, the 35 Whelen is superior to it's parent.

Best,
Phil
____________________________
Stay out of sight and down wind
Professional Hunter ~ Tanzania

[.280Rem]

Originally Posted by bs1865

.280Rem

Please tell more...

BS185 and turner,

I wasn't suggesting the .280Rem as the "do all"...but I could. I just said, and I stand by it, I can think of many choices "better" then the .338Fed. For example: 300WSM, 325WSM,( short action, better velocity with similar wt bullets) 338WinMag (better velocity, manageble recoil) 35Whelen (Bigger bullet, managable recoil) 9.3X62 (same)

.338Fed= "lets take a cartridge that is already at or near the bottom of it's class in power among .308s, and blow it out to make it push a heavier bullet slower than any of it's .338 counterparts."

Inside 250yds, the 338Fed is fine for most anything short of Big Brown Bears...that can be said for a bunch of rounds, the .280 included. If it has nothing to offer over the bunches of rounds in it's class, then, to me, its just another attempt at giving the "heavy and slow" crowd someting to love. In reality, it offers nothing over that currently available, and any "advantage" it shows on paper, is lost on game as they wont be able to tell any difference.

[ArkansasHunter]

You live in Texas with a diverse of terrains I personaly would buy a 300 win, mag.
The Ammo should readily be available anytime you need some.
You didn't mention you do reloading.
If I could be blessed like you are to get to go on an Elk hunt and could buy a new rifle I would buy a common caliber rifle which would be the 300 win, mag.
I'm one who has to have confidence in a rifle, the 300 win mag would be my choice.

There's several new generation recoil pads today that greatly reduce felt recoil, so if recoil is an issue then change the recoil pad but most likely if you buy a new rifle it prolly will have a new super duper recoil pad on it...A.H