Sidearm for Protection in the Field

[ezearln]

Excuse me but most of that argument made little to no sense at all, Phil it sorta works like this.

16d common nail+20ft lbs applied kinetic force=2" of penetration into soft yellow pine. This is a repeatably demonstratable effect and result as long as the nail and other factors are consistant.
Now lets change this around a 16d steel sinker nail+20ft lbs kinetic force= buries the nail completely through the 2x4. The resulting distance the nail protrudes may be lost kinetic energy not required to penetrate the board.

The only thing that changed was the design of the nail.

But bullets aren't nails and the energy potential of a projectile is expressed as w x v = e, bullet weight x velocity=bullet energy. As velocity is shed energy is lost and transferred. If a bullet lets say a .30/06 firing a 180gr bullet has a 100yd down range energy of 1600 lbs as it passes through the target both velocity is shed and energy transferred. If that projectile stops within the target all the energy it possesses is tranferred to the target. However if that bullet continues through and exits the target it still has velocity and weight and therefor energy and since the bullet is no longer in the target has no further effect upon the target.
Therefor the velocity and remaining energy the projectile retains may be locigally seen as "wasted"

[Mooseman684]

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

I agree, it has not "dumped" ALL of it's energy. But that is not what I said.

I said ~

What I am referring to is . . . . . . . if it takes (pick a number) . . . . say 1,000 ft. lbs. of force/energy for the bullet to penetrate 3/4 way through an animal and stop, . . . . . it will take the exact same amount of ft. lbs. of force/energy for a bullet of the same diameter to reach that same point (3/4 through the animal), however if that bullet keeps going and exits the animal, it has delivered more than the 1,000 ft. lbs. of energy, b/c it is still giving up energy as it penetrates further during the final 1/4 length of the animal.

Bullets that stay inside animals do not transfer more energy than bullets that exit, with bullets of the same diameter and weight.


Have a look at it this way.

The animal has "X" amount of resistence
The bullet must "shed" "X" amount of energy to penetrate 3/4 through the animal. The same amount of force mut be applied to the resistence to reach the same depth of penetration.

Kind of like driving a nail in a 4x4. You have to apply the same amount of force with a hammer to drive the nail in 3/4 way through, no matter what size hammer you use.

Also Physics 101.

Best,

You better go back to Physics class and study VARIABLES...Lets take your hammer and Nail Theory...A nail will take more energy to drive the same depth thru a Hardwood 2X4 than it will a Softwood 2X4...with the Same Hammer, Increase the hammer size for the Hardwood and you have increased the amount of driving force, which takes more energy than a lighter hammer and therefore impacts more energy...Now take a sharp nail vs a blunt nail and the blunt nail will face more Resistance to penetrate the same depth than will a sharp nail hence the blunt nail requires more energy to penetrate the same depth as the sharp nail.
Now take a skinny sharp nail and a Fat sharp spike and the same size hammer. the skinny nail will drive right in with sufficient force, The fat spike will take More energy to drive the same distance and will probably split the wood apart...ask any Carpenter !!! Now do the same thing with a hardwood block and the skinny nail will bend and stop before it can penetrate, the spike will take a lot of energy to drive in, but it will stay intact.
Study KINETIC Energy and you will get some valuable insight in Ballistics and how they work....
Rich

[Mike Franklin]

For an animal with mostly soft tissue expanding bullets work fine, for really big stuff you must have penetration, that's why you don't hunt an elephant with a hollowpoint. The bullet you use depends on the animal you're shooting.
BTW, if you're going into the 'dark' woods with a partner just carry a .22 or maybe a .38. If a 'big hairy' attacks, shoot your friend in the leg and run like Hell.

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Mike Franklin

For an animal with mostly soft tissue expanding bullets work fine, for really big stuff you must have penetration, that's why you don't hunt an elephant with a hollowpoint. The bullet you use depends on the animal you're shooting.
BTW, if you're going into the 'dark' woods with a partner just carry a .22 or maybe a .38. If a 'big hairy' attacks, shoot your friend in the leg and run like Hell.

Now that's just wrong! LMAO!

[ezearln]

But very effective Bob

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by ezearln

But very effective Bob

You too, huh? LOL!

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by ezearln

Excuse me but most of that argument made little to no sense at all, Phil it sorta works like this.

16d common nail+20ft lbs applied kinetic force=2" of penetration into soft yellow pine. This is a repeatably demonstratable effect and result as long as the nail and other factors are consistant.
Now lets change this around a 16d steel sinker nail+20ft lbs kinetic force= buries the nail completely through the 2x4. The resulting distance the nail protrudes may be lost kinetic energy not required to penetrate the board.

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

You better go back to Physics class and study VARIABLES...Lets take your hammer and Nail Theory...A nail will take more energy to drive the same depth thru a Hardwood 2X4 than it will a Softwood 2X4...with the Same Hammer, Increase the hammer size for the Hardwood and you have increased the amount of driving force, which takes more energy than a lighter hammer and therefore impacts more energy...Now take a sharp nail vs a blunt nail and the blunt nail will face more Resistance to penetrate the same depth than will a sharp nail hence the blunt nail requires more energy to penetrate the same depth as the sharp nail.
Now take a skinny sharp nail and a Fat sharp spike and the same size hammer. the skinny nail will drive right in with sufficient force, The fat spike will take More energy to drive the same distance and will probably split the wood apart...ask any Carpenter !!! Now do the same thing with a hardwood block and the skinny nail will bend and stop before it can penetrate, the spike will take a lot of energy to drive in, but it will stay intact.
Study KINETIC Energy and you will get some valuable insight in Ballistics and how they work....
Rich

If you change the materials involved, I agree with you. If you change from a 16 common to a 16 steel sinker, or hardwood to soft wood.

If you will have a look back, what I said was if things are the same it takes the same amount of force energy to move the same object the same distance and it takes more force to move it farther.

A bullet that stops inside an animal cannot deliver more energy than the same bullet that exits. The bullet that exits delivers/transfers more energy.

Maybe the hammer and nail was a bad analogy, due to the fact there is a accelerating force from the hammer. And a bullet is actually decelerating.

And as far as energy being wasted, when the bullet exist, whatever energy the bullet retains is not needed. But wasted ?

How much energy does it take for the bullet to stop under the skin on the off side of a deer at 100 yards ? I mean, what is the [u]exact number of ft. lbs. needed[/U[ ?

How about at 250 yards ? . . . . . . . 275 ?

So what you would consider wasted/excessive energy at 100 in reality at 275 may not be enough to reach the same point in the critter.

To move 1 pound, one foot you need 1 foot pound of energy. To move it farther, you need more than 1 foor pound of energy.

Best,

[ezearln]

Phil I think you're missing the boat on the term energy transfer, what it means. Or at the least the nomenclature involved.

2 Bullets exactly the same, fired from the same rifle, fired at exactly the same target, at exactly the same range. One passes completely through the target, the other does not.

The bullet that stops within the target transfers 100% of it's stored kinetic energy to the target, the bullet that passes completely through does not.

Now the bullet that continues on through does make a larger wound more mechanical damage but it does not impart greater energy to the target rather the opposite.

And yes it takes 1 ftlb of force (kinetic energy) to move a 1 lb target 1 foot, but that requires 100% energy transfer. When that energy transfer occurs the object or means by which it was delivered ceases to have any potential energy. Becomming inert and at rest.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by ezearln

2 Bullets exactly the same, fired from the same rifle, fired at exactly the same target, at exactly the same range. One passes completely through the target, the other does not.

Where does the bullet that does not pass through stop ? On the surface, 1/2, 1/2, 3/4 of the way through ?

Originally Posted by ezearln

The bullet that stops within the target transfers 100% of it's stored kinetic energy to the target, the bullet that passes completely through does not.

Exactly where does the bullet in the target stop ? If it stops 1" from exiting, it has transfered all it's energy. If it has to go another 1" to exit, does it not need any more energy to do that ?

So the same bullet that exits MUST transfer more energy in that last 1" If not, then expand my hypothesis from not 1 more inch to exit but 10 inches from exiting. If you don't need more energy to have the bullet push through that 10 more inched, the no one would ever recover a fired bullet at it would exit every time.

If a bullet is capable of delivering 2,000 ft. lbs. of energy and when entering an animal it meets 2,000 ft. lbs. of resistance at the 1/2 through of the animal, how much energy was transfered ? 2,000 ft. lbs.

For the bullet to continue on the remainder of the 1/2 and achieve full penetration of the animal and exit, the bullet must be capable of delivering more than 2,000 ft. lbs. if the bullet is to exit. So if it takes 2,000 ft. lbs. of energy to achieve half penetration on an animal, in YOUR opinion how much energy does a bullet need for full penetration ? More, less or the same ?

If your answer is more, that is because it takes more energy to fully penetrate the critter, which means it will transfer more energy.

Best,

[Mooseman684]

I will NOT be going hunting with you anytime soon...LOL
You are only speculating and have No Mathematics to back up your Ideas....
We do, as does EVERY bullet engineer in the Universe...
Kinetic energy cannot be disputed because it is proveable Mathematically !
If your bullet passed through an animal and killed another hunter 50 yards away, does that mean it had double the energy than bullet #1 that stopped inside ??? Not hardly....Same energy, LESS Energy imparted to The animal as it passed through...killing the hunter with the remaining Energy.
POINT!

[LiveToShoot]

I'd suggest that you get yourself a copy of Billy's hand cannon, a .454 Casull, or at least a .44 loaded strong...

Until I can find a good price on a .454, I carry a .44 with strong enough loads that it'll pierce the tough hide and fat layers of a bear, and then do serious damage once inside.

I've heard stories of forest rangers who've been let down by a .357, and lived to tell the tale of their horrifying experience of trying unsuccessfully to stop a bear with it.

[ezearln]

Phil okay now I think I see where you aren't understanding what everyone here me included has been trying to explain.

It is obvious to me that you are confusing both terminology used to describe terminal ballistics and the effects and results derived there from.

When the formula is applied to describe the net "potential" kinetic energy a bullet in flight has. That is what is available as energy expressed as foot pounds of kinetic energy to that bullet.

2 identical bullets as described before, one exits one does not. one has completely transferred ALL of it's net Potential kinetic energy the other did not. It doesn't make any difference how deep penetration is in regards to the effect of energy transfer.

Both of the bullets have the exact same darned kinetic energy available to them in this example.

A projectile in flight (other than a RAP -Rocket Assisted Projectile-) does not get extra energy, a projectile impacting and traveling through an animal doesn't receive extra energy when doing so. It only has that which it possessed before impact. As the projectile passes through tissue and bone it is constantly shedding both velocity and energy. If the projectile stops within the animal it has expended ALL the energy it possessed and transferred it to the target. If it passes completely through the target exiting it still possesses energy that it did not transfer.

This is simple, and it doesn't matter whether or not the bullet has another 1 inch or 40 feet to go to exit it only has the energy available to it before impact which does not go up as it passes through, it dimminishes.

If you shoot an animal with a bullet having 2000 ftlbs of energy available to it and it stops half way through it delivered 2000 ftlbs of energy to the animal, if it traveled 7/8th's of the way through it still delivered 2000 ftlbs of energy, if it stops 1/1000th's of an inch under the animals hide it still only delivered 2000 ft lbs. If the bullet exits it STILL possesses energy it did not transfer to the animal.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by ezearln

Phil okay now I think I see where you aren't understanding what everyone here me included has been trying to explain.

I understand exactly what you are saying.

Ok, now answer the questions as I ask them. Thanks.

Originally Posted by ezearln

As the projectile passes through tissue and bone it is constantly shedding both velocity and energy. If the projectile stops within the animal it has expended ALL the energy it possessed and transferred it to the target. If it passes completely through the target exiting it still possesses energy that it did not transfer.

You pick the numbers. How much energy does it take so the bullet stops and transfers all it's energy 3/4 of the way through . . . . whatever animal you choose. Give me a ft. lbs. number for the bullet energy transfer to penetrate only 3/4 of the way through the animal of your choice.

Now if the bullet is stopping 3/4 of the way through and animal because it has transfered all it's energy, once stopped, it has 0 ft. lbs. of energy.

Now, how much more energy would the bullet need to completely penetrate your animal from where it stopped, 3/4 of the way through ? It still needs to go another 1/4 of the critter, but cannot b/c it has transfered all it's energy already. So to push the bullet through the last 1/4 of the animal, you must start with more energy than with the first bullet. At 2,000 ft. lbs. of energy you can only penetrate so far. If you need to penetrate farther, you need more energy. If 2,000 ft. lbs. of energy will only push the bullet 3/4 of the way through an animal, to push it all the way through you must have more, so if you need more energy, the bullet will be transferring more energy at least that last 1/4 of the animal.

Best,

[ezearln]

Phil I still see that you don't grasp all the mechanics in play here. Either that or you are confusing the terminology used. In the physics involved in ballistic performance there are always differences and variables which affect identical projectiles fired from identical rifles at identical targets, at the same distance. Some extremely minute which make large differences in terminal ballistic performance. This is more pronounced when the target happens to be living tissue. One bullet may strike bone shedding energy and velocity at a sharper rate than one that passes between bones and is resisted only by soft tissue. The projectiles final performance can be significantly altered by these variables. The bullet that strikes bone and tissue will most likely depending upon design and construction stop within the animal, the other may not.

The bullet that stopped has expended all it's available energy, never mind the numbers it's energy is spent, tranferred into the animal. The bullet encountering somewhat less resistance doesn't shed it's available energy as quickly and exits your animal. Remembering that energy in this is expressed as bullet weight X velocity and since the exiting bullet is still in flight it hasn't used up all the kinetic energy it possesses, so it didn't transfer that portion of retained energy it still possesses into the animal.
It DOES NOT MATTER that the exiting bullet went farther through tissue than the one that stopped it didn't tranfer "Extra" energy into the target doing it because it met less resistance and didn't fully expend what it had available to it. The bullet that stopped did expend and transfer ALL it's available energy getting to where it stopped transferring all of it to the target.

[Lng Rng]

This is confusing, but here is what I think Phil is saying. I could be wrong, but here I go. If I am wrong, then I am more confused than I thought.

Say it takes 2000 lbs of energy to penetrate through an elk, and you only hit the animal with 1500 lbs. You are only going to penetrate through 3/4 of the animal, right? So if you hit the animal with 2500 lbs of energy, you are depositing a full 2000 lbs of energy, so none was "wasted" even though the bullet may have still had energy as it left the animal.

On a side note, any projectile that is in motion has energy. So, under the above scenario, the bullet still did have 500 lbs of remaning energy, Phil doens't see it as wasted, because the bullet did its job.

[ezearln]

yes Lng Rng. But that isn't the issue here, the issue is that in your scenario with the 2000lbs projectile the bullet DID NOT transfer ALL the energy it possessed into the target. It transferred only what it required to fully penetrate and then exit. The bullet which stopped has transferred all it had into the target.
Clear as mud right? Moreover we were discussing the effects and mechanics of two identical projectiles upon identical targets. read my last two posts carefully and I hope that may clear things up a lil bit for you.

[Mooseman684]

Originally Posted by Lng Rng

This is confusing, but here is what I think Phil is saying. I could be wrong, but here I go. If I am wrong, then I am more confused than I thought.

Say it takes 2000 lbs of energy to penetrate through an elk, and you only hit the animal with 1500 lbs. You are only going to penetrate through 3/4 of the animal, right? So if you hit the animal with 2500 lbs of energy, you are depositing a full 2000 lbs of energy, so none was "wasted" even though the bullet may have still had energy as it left the animal.

On a side note, any projectile that is in motion has energy. So, under the above scenario, the bullet still did have 500 lbs of remaning energy, Phil doens't see it as wasted, because the bullet did its job.

Well....
I understand the thinking, but we arent talking "Penetration" in reality, we are talking Energy transfered from a bullet in order to Kill an animal with a massive shock/Tissue/CNS damage. Here is the Variable...
If I take a small diameter FMJ bullet and push it fast enough to produce 2500 lbs of energy and i shoot thru an Elk,it will drill a hole right thru the elk causing a small wound entrance, exit and wound Channel, Now I take a large diameter bullet and at a slower velocity that produces 2500 lbs. of energy, it will more than likely NOT penetrate the elk because of resistance and the slower velocity when it hits, but will expend all of its energy in the animal and cause a much larger entry hole and a much larger shock wave through the animal, Increasing the ODDS of an Instant Kill... Same Energy amount with different results...
I will grant you that if I could push a small diameter bullet fast enough to impart that much energy, it would in all likelyhood Explode on impact expelling all of its energy in a violent manner and only causing a shallow flesh wound at the point of impact...I am just using the above example as an example of different performances due to other variables such as surface area and mass.
That is why we use larger Diameter/faster /expanding bullets so as to impart energy in mass in Large Game and have the bullet expand as large as possible to create the largest shock and tissue damage with ALL of the available amount of energy in that bullet at the moment of Impact in the most efficient manner possible so that no energy is Unused or what we call Wasted energy...There are limitations that we face with barrel pressures, velocities, and bullet strength and Integrity but those are for another discussion.....It all boils down to what is the Most efficient use of available energy in order to complete the task at hand...Humanely killing an animal that may be pumped on adrenaline and mad as hell coming like a freight train.

[Lng Rng]

Very well put Mooseman. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[ezearln]

but mooseman we weren't discussing bullets of different design now were we? We had been discussing the effects of two bullets being the same out of the same rifle one stopping in the target the other exiting and the amount of energy imparted by each into that target.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by Lng Rng

This is confusing, but here is what I think Phil is saying. I could be wrong, but here I go. If I am wrong, then I am more confused than I thought.
Say it takes 2000 lbs of energy to penetrate through an elk, and you only hit the animal with 1500 lbs. You are only going to penetrate through 3/4 of the animal, right? So if you hit the animal with 2500 lbs of energy, you are depositing a full 2000 lbs of energy, so none was "wasted" even though the bullet may have still had energy as it left the animal.
On a side note, any projectile that is in motion has energy. So, under the above scenario, the bullet still did have 500 lbs of remaning energy, Phil doens't see it as wasted, because the bullet did its job.

Exactly what I have been trying to say.

Originally Posted by ezearln

but mooseman we weren't discussing bullets of different design now were we? We had been discussing the effects of two bullets being the same out of the same rifle one stopping in the target the other exiting and the amount of energy imparted by each into that target.

Maybe that is why it was difficult to explain. Items (bullets etc.) kept getting changed. Additionally, I don't think I said, bullet from the same gun, nor the same load. If a 30 '06 will only push the bullet 3/4 of the way through, you would need a 300 Wby. to push it all the way through. Beginning with a bullet size, shape and weight.

Best,