.30-06 VS .300 Win Mag

[Onesonek]

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

At 200 yards a 30/06 with 180 grain bullet and a Muzzle velocity of 2700 fps has 2,160 lbs. of Energy.
At 400 yards a .300 Win mag with 180 grain bullet and a Muzzle velocity of 3100 fps has 2,160 lbs of Energy...( 200 Yard energy is 2904 lbs. which is 15% More than the 06 at 100 yards ).

.300 WM has the SAME ENERGY TWICE AS FAR DOWNRANGE....
Rich

Between the 2 choices, I agree the .300 would be a better choice with concerns to the buff. I feel it would do better with the 200-220 grainers which I would likely use. The reasson for the quote is I think the 400 fps is stretching it abit. As 3100 is above book max in my comparison, and 2700 is below. I would say 250 fps is more realistic,,be that as it may, it's substantial. And in this case more is better from a power standpoint. But having not hunted those critters, I couldn't really say I would feel undergunned with the 06 until I tried. Speculation has me thinkin the .300 is better though, as in when doubt, more is better.

Dave

[ACfixer]

The .300 would make a fine prairie dog gun.

[Onesonek]

Originally Posted by samuel

Velocity will always make a big difference.Increasing the diammeter of a bullet creates more drag meaning the larger diammeter bullet,while having an advantage at shorter ranges because of weight/energy,quickly loses velocity and drops behind the smaller diammeter bullet at longer ranges.If the velocity is already 200fps to 400fps then the higher velocity bullet is going to do more damage.Mainly because upset and penetration will be greater.At short ranges the larger diammeter has the advantage. sam.

Not meaning to nitpic here but,,,,,
Increasing diameter does not create more drag. While diameter is part of the equation, most of it has to do with nose and base design. It's just the bulk of the bigger bores designs are made with broad meplats and short ogives, for short to modest range power in mind. The big bores don't need much in the way of upset or expansion to acheive the same results, but speed does generate more hydrostatic shock when deep penetration isnt required, both schools of thought have merrit.
Dave

[samuel]

Originally Posted by Onesonek

Not meaning to nitpic here but,,,,,
Increasing diameter does not create more drag. While diameter is part of the equation, most of it has to do with nose and base design. It's just the bulk of the bigger bores designs are made with broad meplats and short ogives, for short to modest range power in mind. The big bores don't need much in the way of upset or expansion to acheive the same results, but speed does generate more hydrostatic shock when deep penetration isnt required, both schools of thought have merrit.
Dave

Thank you for correcting me and I will try to find a way to explain to the gun world that they are wrong and increased diammeter doesnt make a bullet slow down any faster than a smaller diammeter of equal velocity,shape, and weight.They have been mixed up all of these years and I am sure you can straighten them out.While you are at it please explain to the boating people that they have been wasting their time all of these years hanging sails out on boats as the pole the sail is on has equal drag and can propel the boat just as fast as the sail.Also we should explain to the auto industry that a truck 8' wide by 12' high has no more drag than a car 6'wide by 4' high.I am sure they will all be thrilled to get your highly intelligent findings.I know I really appreciate finding this out as all I had to go by was the findings of experts in physics and engeneering.What a relief!Thank you.Everyone listen up now!This is one intelligent finding. sam.

[Onesonek]

Originally Posted by samuel

Thank you for correcting me and I will try to find a way to explain to the gun world that they are wrong and increased diammeter doesnt make a bullet slow down any faster than a smaller diammeter of equal velocity,shape, and weight.They have been mixed up all of these years and I am sure you can straighten them out.While you are at it please explain to the boating people that they have been wasting their time all of these years hanging sails out on boats as the pole the sail is on has equal drag and can propel the boat just as fast as the sail.Also we should explain to the auto industry that a truck 8' wide by 12' high has no more drag than a car 6'wide by 4' high.I am sure they will all be thrilled to get your highly intelligent findings.I know I really appreciate finding this out as all I had to go by was the findings of experts in physics and engeneering.What a relief!Thank you.Everyone listen up now!This is one intelligent finding. sam.

I stand corrected Sam,,,but you have to read between a number of lines to get the equal speed, shape,and weight part,,,your post I refered to, only stated diameter., and not clear on the rest of the info you just mentioned
But yes you are right, all things being equal in the bullet other than diameter the BC will be better on the smaller caliber.

Dave

[Mooseman684]

Not only does Increasing diameter increase drag , but there is also an Increase in Gravitational pull on a larger diameter Heavier bullet as it gets downrange...Physics 101 !

[Onesonek]

Originally Posted by Onesonek

I stand corrected Sam,,,but you have to read between a number of lines to get the equal speed, shape,and weight part,,,your post I refered to, only stated diameter., and not clear on the rest of the info you just mentioned
But yes you are right, all things being equal in the bullet other than diameter the BC will be better on the smaller caliber.

Dave

But, if I were to go with a larger caliber, I see no point in using the same bullet weight as the smaller, reducing the sectional density. What would be the benefit of doing such?

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

Not only does Increasing diameter increase drag , but there is also an Increase in Gravitational pull on a larger diameter Heavier bullet as it gets downrange...Physics 101 !

Going back to my last post I would not use two different calibers using the same bullet weight and expect equal results because of equal weight.
Gravitational pull and bullet diameter???
In order to figure the equality between two calibers, the only factors that would come into play, is SD. BC. and velocity. I would have to do some checking around to find the bullets, but for sake of agurement.
You have available a .30 cal 180 gr and a .338 225gr., the SD is within a couple points of each other. And supposing ( without the example, I'll look for them later) these two bullets are designed the same so that the BC's are within a point or two. And if the are driven the same velocity just say the 300 WM and the 338 UM. at 3000 fps,,,,,,,they will have virtually the same flight path. Ballistics 101! down load a program and run the numbers yourself!!!!

[samuel]

Originally Posted by ACfixer

The .300 would make a fine prairie dog gun.

Prarie dogs don't need guns,they are dangerous enough digging holes and carrying bubonic plague. sam.

[Onesonek]

Originally Posted by Onesonek

But, if I were to go with a larger caliber, I see no point in using the same bullet weight as the smaller, reducing the sectional density. What would be the benefit of doing such?



Going back to my last post I would not use two different calibers using the same bullet weight and expect equal results because of equal weight.
Gravitational pull and bullet diameter???
In order to figure the equality between two calibers, the only factors that would come into play, is SD. BC. and velocity. I would have to do some checking around to find the bullets, but for sake of agurement.
You have available a .30 cal 180 gr and a .338 225gr., the SD is within a couple points of each other. And supposing ( without the example, I'll look for them later) these two bullets are designed the same so that the BC's are within a point or two. And if the are driven the same velocity just say the 300 WM and the 338 UM. at 3000 fps,,,,,,,they will have virtually the same flight path. Ballistics 101! down load a program and run the numbers yourself!!!!

Actually a better comparision would be the .30/180 gr. Accubond and the Swift Scirooco .338/210 gr.
Identical BC. and the SD's are .008 apart in favor of the .30 cal. with the 210 being lighter for dia.. Meaning with these two the 180 would maybe have slightly better penetration qualities. That would depend most on the individual expansion and weight retention characteristics of both. Looking quickly the closest I found in the calibers for near identicle SD's are the 7mm Accubond and the same in 225 gr .338, and then the 225 would be giving up .024 in BC making the 7mm flatter shooting if shot at the same speed. But really other than being equal in weight for comparision per dia , SD's by themselves have little to do with bullet flight characteristics.
But the 180 and the 210 having the same BC pushed at the same velocity, even though being 30 grs. difference in weight and .030" differnence in diameter will have the same flight path.
You take the heavier .338 225 gr AB, against the .30 cal 180gr. AB, if loaded to equal velocites , the 225 will shoot flatter with a .043 BC advantage. It be the oposite if the BC if it were reversed for the .30 cal.
It boils down to speed and BC(shape),,,not diameter, and weight.
You simply cannot compare apples to oranges and come to a rational conclusion, there has to be quantification in the process.

Dave

[Aaronb2245]

Originally Posted by samuel

Mooseman is a lot of things(generous,smart,helpful, a hunter,sharing)but never dillusional.There are several .30-06 bullets that might not go through heavy bone.In fact I doubt that a 110gr varmint bullet would even get to the vitals,especially at short range. sam.

He said nothing of the bullet's weight, he only mentioned the cartridge.

I killed a hog last season with a 75gr hornady a-max .243 and it went right through the left leg bone (breaking it) blew up the heart and jelloed the lungs. I didn't recover the round and I'm positive it fragmented, however it went through the leg bone like butter and caused NASTY damage. I use 95gr-100grs on hogs in this caliber, however that's the round I had at the time and I was uber impressed at the damage it did.

Aaron

[Mooseman684]

A giant of a Hog in the gulf hammock of Florida could not be stopped with 12 ga.slugs, 150 Gr. 30/06, and 170 gr. 30-30 rounds...The shoulder pads were like armor...3 of us couldnt stop that hog. It killed a dog with its tusks, attacked another hunter and ripped his arm open from his wrist to up past his elbow. This Hog looked like a chest type Freezer on legs with large curled tusks...Freakin Huge and Mean !
Up here in Alaska 200 to 400 yard shots are common if you hunt River gravel bars,Like I do, or if you hunt sheep.It means the diffference between getting a Trophy Ram and your winter meat or having to eat fish or Spam all winter !!! I chose the .300 for the long range ballistics which means it also works great up close for dropping a big animal...I have 30/06 rifles, 300 Mag rifles, .338 Federal, 45/70 rifles, and had the .375 H&H Mag,Had a 7mm Mag, and have fired the .458. I prefer the .300 over all of them unless I am in thick brush and a very close shot, then I'm gonna carry the 45/70...
Alaska's hunting is different than most places because of the terrain and the accessibilty...If you see a Big Bull Moose at 200-400 yards away that is fixing to cross a river and get away , here , you better be able to drop him before he gets in the water and gets to the other side and disappears...You may Not see another one , And you may not have a boat with you !
It is just the way it is.

[Aaronb2245]

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

A giant of a Hog in the gulf hammock of Florida could not be stopped with 12 ga.slugs, 150 Gr. 30/06, and 170 gr. 30-30 rounds...The shoulder pads were like armor...3 of us couldnt stop that hog. It killed a dog with its tusks, attacked another hunter and ripped his arm open from his wrist to up past his elbow. This Hog looked like a chest type Freezer on legs with large curled tusks...Freakin Huge and Mean !
Up here in Alaska 200 to 400 yard shots are common if you hunt River gravel bars,Like I do, or if you hunt sheep.It means the diffference between getting a Trophy Ram and your winter meat or having to eat fish or Spam all winter !!! I chose the .300 for the long range ballistics which means it also works great up close for dropping a big animal...I have 30/06 rifles, 300 Mag rifles, .338 Federal, 45/70 rifles, and had the .375 H&H Mag,Had a 7mm Mag, and have fired the .458. I prefer the .300 over all of them unless I am in thick brush and a very close shot, then I'm gonna carry the 45/70...
Alaska's hunting is different than most places because of the terrain and the accessibilty...If you see a Big Bull Moose at 200-400 yards away that is fixing to cross a river and get away , here , you better be able to drop him before he gets in the water and gets to the other side and disappears...You may Not see another one , And you may not have a boat with you !
It is just the way it is.

All I'm saying is that with proper round in the 30-06 you are going to penetrate that armor plate. I understand what you are saying....I don't use 150gr rounds in my 06' b/c I have witnessed too many of them exploding on impact at close range without even hitting bone. Granted those were remington core-lokts and probably just couldn't handle the high speed at close range (100 yards under) but none the less I now use heavier rounds in 165gr for the core lokts and 168gr Winchester BST. If you used a round of a different weight/design a 30-06 is going to pentrate any hogs shoulder. Simply saying that a 30-06 isn't going to pentrate vitals through a shoulder on a large hog is wrong. Last time I checked hogs don't wear steel armor plates....lol which could be remedied with armor piercing 30-06 rounds.

I'm not saying that a larger cartridge doesn't or might not suit your needs better. I'm simply replying to the statement you made that a 30-06 won't penetrate to vitals on the large hogs you hunted in Florida. Perhaps you should chalk that one up to bullet design.

Aaron