All-Around Dangerous Game Cartridge

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by samuel

What if you only shoot the little ones,animals,not guns? sam.

The original question was about dangerous game and what cartridge you would choose.

[sbowers5]

Phil I appreciate and respect your opinion, being in the position your in but you did not answer my question, why do we see it used so often on the television shows about africa, they seem to have nothing but good things to say about it, and in almost everyone that has to do with buffalo the .375 seems to be the caliber of choice.
steve

[Mike Franklin]

Phil Lozano
Just to get everyone's feet back on the ground, how much is a man going to pay to take an Elephant and a Cape Buffalo? Let's include airfare, tips and all the other expenses that don't get in the flyers?
I haven't checked my Lotto ticket yet tonight. Ya just never know.

[samuel]

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

The original question was about dangerous game and what cartridge you would choose.

Ok,I like them all.You don't have much of a sense of humor.What did you say your guide service name was? sam.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by sbowers5

Phil I appreciate and respect your opinion, being in the position your in but you did not answer my question, why do we see it used so often on the television shows about africa, they seem to have nothing but good things to say about it, and in almost everyone that has to do with buffalo the .375 seems to be the caliber of choice.
steve

I have shot many Buffalo with the 375, and they are very dead.

I also shot some with a 7mm Mag., 300 Mag., 338 Mag., and a 35 Whelen. They are dead as well. In your opinion, does that make these Buffalo cartridges ? I shot them behind the ear or between the eyes. The difference is, I had the option to shoot or not shoot. If everything was not right, I walked away. I can go back again tomorrow, next week or next month and try again. Most people do not have that option.

I have given my opinion based on observing for 20+ years hunting dangerous game in Africa. I am not "hawking" anything on TV, nor and do I get a %age commission of 416 sales. I am not a guy from a bullet manufacture touting my new caliber/bullet. And I cannot speak for them or their opinions. I can only go by what I see, in person, with my own eyes (more than a thousand times) .

I can only tell you what "I" saw, repeatedly. The majority of my clients bring 416's (and they are more often than not, experienced in hunting DG, so they must know something), but have followed more wounded Buffalo that were shot with a 375 that all the other cartridges combined. And I have only had 4 clients that were not very good shots.

So why would you suppose I have followed more wounded Buff shot with a 375, than with 416's ?

On the TV shows, why do they talk up the 375, . . . . . . . . . . everyone is entitled to their opinion (sponsored or not). When you speak to them in private, their answer may not be the same. I know many of the guys you watch on TV and I can tell you, when they hunt Buffalo seriously (as in their own personal hunt), they are not packing a 375.

Now, people can bring whatever cartridge they want ! No problem by me. However, just remember, when you shoot, and the Buffalo runs off, the P.H. may not let you come along on the follow up (a P.H. can never put his client in a position of certain danger). If he goes in alone to sort your Buffalo, and he gets "whacked" or killed, might you feel a bit like you were responsible ?

And while we are speaking of wounded Buffalo, what cartridge would you like your rifle to be if you were going in alone ? Well, whatever it is, that is the 1 you shot have taken the first shot with.

The energy level of the 375 is about 4,200 ft. lbs., the 416 Rem. Mag. has about 5,100. Why do you think extremely few Professional Hunters carry a 375 ? Because it isn't enough, that's why !

In most countries, they have set a minimum level of power of 375 H&H ballistics to hunt Buffalo. That is the minimum level.

Liken that to some states here allowing .22 caliber for deer. A .22 will kill a deer, and I know some guys that use them for deer. I don't condone it, but, they are shooting them in a different state. And they get their deer most every year.

Does that make .22's a deer cartridge, and why are these guys using them successfully ? And tralking them up so much ?

Capable of killing deer ? Yes. Prudent ? No.

And to be frank (from here on down), they (TV shows) want people to come and hunt in Africa, with whatever company they are hunting with.

"Pitching" a safari on this forum would, for the most part, be a waste of time.

The majority of the posters here think that if you have a rifle that recoils more than a 30 '06, you will be disabled for life, get severe brain damage, will no longer be able to have children, make you flinch and limp until the day you die and will recoil so hard it will kill your Mother ! !

Now if I told you you must bring a rifle that recoils 2 or 3 times as much as an '06, some would shutter, run and hide.


As I have said before, I did not write this, but I wish I would have -
"If you are going to take the life of a noble animal . . . . . . . . . . . . . you should feel the pain as well"

[Aaronb2245]

Originally Posted by Mike Franklin

Phil Lozano
Just to get everyone's feet back on the ground, how much is a man going to pay to take an Elephant and a Cape Buffalo? Let's include airfare, tips and all the other expenses that don't get in the flyers?
I haven't checked my Lotto ticket yet tonight. Ya just never know.

Would you eat the elephant or the cape buffalo? If your answer is no, then don't kill them.....trophy hunting is crap. That's just MY opinion!

Aaron

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by Aaronb2245

Would you eat the elephant or the cape buffalo? If your answer is no, then don't kill them.....trophy hunting is crap. That's just MY opinion!

Aaron

Well, if you had to ask the question (that you, yourself answered) then you don't know whether we eat them or not. Additionally, you have no concept of trophy hunting.

That's my opinion.

[Phil Lozano]

It is easy to come to a forum and post your opinion. What do you have to back up your opinion, other than other internet site quotes.

How about some real like experiences to back up your posts. If you have 10 big game hunts under your belt, you have a better "real life" experience than someone that has hunted Doves twice.

JMO

[Mike Franklin]

Well Aaron, the point is not to kill them. The whole point is to hunt them. In the hunting they have that same chance to make you a trophy too.
I'd never under any circumstances hunt dangerous game from a blind or while sitting in a tree stand. That's my choice. Why even hunt one if there's not the chance of feeling their hot breath on your face?
I haven't hunted a deer, pig or other game from a blind or tree in years. I want hunting as fair as it can be. I have much more pride in taking a deer with my Colt SAA out in the brush than I ever could shooting one over bait from a stand. Some years that means I don't even get a shot. That's what I call hunting.
BTW, one of the girls I helped raise hunts wild hogs with a knife. Sure makes me proud of her.

[Midas]

Originally Posted by Aaronb2245

Would you eat the elephant or the cape buffalo? If your answer is no, then don't kill them.....trophy hunting is crap. That's just MY opinion!

Aaron

PETA thinks the same thing

Phil, I always enjoy your posts, you provide knowledge, based on experience, from a continent that only a fortunate few of us will ever be able to hunt. I would think, that actually squaring off against one of these dangerous animals, would tend to shape one's opinion in favor of bigger cartridges. These animals aren't whitetail deer, they can lay a hurting on you in a hurry, there is no such thing as "too much gun" when facing a two ton bull elephant. I never hear anyone that has seriously hunted Africa, complain a whole lot about recoil. Like I have said before, big game, requires big guns.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by Midas

Like I have said before, big game, requires big guns.

That is one of the most sensible, informative posts I have read here.

[Silent Shooter]

T-Rex .577

[samuel]

Originally Posted by Mike Franklin

Phil Lozano
Just to get everyone's feet back on the ground, how much is a man going to pay to take an Elephant and a Cape Buffalo? Let's include airfare, tips and all the other expenses that don't get in the flyers?
I haven't checked my Lotto ticket yet tonight. Ya just never know.

If you google him up,he has a website that gives all the info you need I believe.After going through it I am honored to have such a great hunter on this forum to post about Africa.I do like big guns and even in N.A. have always liked to have the edge in power as Lozano reccomends.I believe that way because I like to put game down as efficiently as possible.Big bullets won't make up for bad shooting,but they do more damage when placed right.Thank you Phil Lozano for your posts. sam.

[samuel]

Originally Posted by Aaronb2245

Would you eat the elephant or the cape buffalo? If your answer is no, then don't kill them.....trophy hunting is crap. That's just MY opinion!

Aaron

You are confused as to what hunting is and the difference between "trophy" and "meat" hunters.A trophy hunter goes out with one specific type in mind.He chooses his game and very carefully dispatches it because he may never see it again if he makes a bad shot.The meat is seldom wasted by the hunter and never by nature. A meat hunter so many times is hunting anything with meat on it.They go out and shoot anything from fawns/calves/cubs to actual trophys.A high percentage of them shoot very wrecklessly because they can get another shot if they flub op because they are omly after meat and there is 100 times as much meat shots as there are trophy shots.Not all meat hunters actually try to follow wounded game.I never heard of a trophy hunter that didn't follow and collect the trophy,mainly because they are good hunters and they may never get a trophy like that again. sam.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by samuel

You are confused as to what hunting is and the difference between "trophy" and "meat" hunters.A trophy hunter goes out with one specific type in mind.He chooses his game and very carefully dispatches it because he may never see it again if he makes a bad shot.The meat is seldom wasted by the hunter and never by nature. A meat hunter so many times is hunting anything with meat on it.They go out and shoot anything from fawns/calves/cubs to actual trophys.A high percentage of them shoot very wrecklessly because they can get another shot if they flub op because they are omly after meat and there is 100 times as much meat shots as there are trophy shots.Not all meat hunters actually try to follow wounded game.I never heard of a trophy hunter that didn't follow and collect the trophy,mainly because they are good hunters and they may never get a trophy like that again. sam.

Did I write that ?

Well, I shudda.

[ACfixer]

Originally Posted by Aaronb2245

Would you eat the elephant or the cape buffalo? If your answer is no, then don't kill them.....trophy hunting is crap. That's just MY opinion!

Aaron

We all have opinions Aaron and you are entitled to yours. Trophy hunting isn't my thing either, but I respect the rights of those to do so so long as they are following the rules and abiding by the local laws. Those hunters are paying big fees for tags and guides etc. that pump money into local economies and provide jobs in areas where people sometimes eat the bugs out of the dirt.

I don't know a darn thing about cape buffalo, but I'm willing to bet the hunter that takes the head or horns or whatever as a trophy probably either sells the rest of the animal or donates it to locals for food. In other words I doubt they cut off the head and leave the carcas to rot.

Now I do take a slight exception to those that think it's a fair fight. Far more animals die than hunters. I'm not here to judge but let's call a spade a spade, the animal doesn't have a gun. When the ratio is 1:1 then I will call it a fair fight.

So not knowing a thing about hunting in Africa or Alaska, I'll defer to Phil. If someone with that kind of experience says that a .416 is needed in Africa I'm not showing up with anything weaker if I'm hunting there.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by ACfixer

in Africa I'm not showing up with anything weaker if I'm hunting there.

If hunting dangerous game, you would have chosen wisely.

[CroMagnum]

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

I have shot many Buffalo with the 375, and they are very dead.

I also shot some with a 7mm Mag., 300 Mag., 338 Mag., and a 35 Whelen. They are dead as well. In your opinion, does that make these Buffalo cartridges ? I shot them behind the ear or between the eyes. The difference is, I had the option to shoot or not shoot. If everything was not right, I walked away. I can go back again tomorrow, next week or next month and try again. Most people do not have that option.

I have given my opinion based on observing for 20+ years hunting dangerous game in Africa. I am not "hawking" anything on TV, nor and do I get a %age commission of 416 sales. I am not a guy from a bullet manufacture touting my new caliber/bullet. And I cannot speak for them or their opinions. I can only go by what I see, in person, with my own eyes (more than a thousand times) .

I can only tell you what "I" saw, repeatedly. The majority of my clients bring 416's (and they are more often than not, experienced in hunting DG, so they must know something), but have followed more wounded Buffalo that were shot with a 375 that all the other cartridges combined. And I have only had 4 clients that were not very good shots.

So why would you suppose I have followed more wounded Buff shot with a 375, than with 416's ?

On the TV shows, why do they talk up the 375, . . . . . . . . . . everyone is entitled to their opinion (sponsored or not). When you speak to them in private, their answer may not be the same. I know many of the guys you watch on TV and I can tell you, when they hunt Buffalo seriously (as in their own personal hunt), they are not packing a 375.

Now, people can bring whatever cartridge they want ! No problem by me. However, just remember, when you shoot, and the Buffalo runs off, the P.H. may not let you come along on the follow up (a P.H. can never put his client in a position of certain danger). If he goes in alone to sort your Buffalo, and he gets "whacked" or killed, might you feel a bit like you were responsible ?

And while we are speaking of wounded Buffalo, what cartridge would you like your rifle to be if you were going in alone ? Well, whatever it is, that is the 1 you shot have taken the first shot with.

The energy level of the 375 is about 4,200 ft. lbs., the 416 Rem. Mag. has about 5,100. Why do you think extremely few Professional Hunters carry a 375 ? Because it isn't enough, that's why !

In most countries, they have set a minimum level of power of 375 H&H ballistics to hunt Buffalo. That is the minimum level.

Liken that to some states here allowing .22 caliber for deer. A .22 will kill a deer, and I know some guys that use them for deer. I don't condone it, but, they are shooting them in a different state. And they get their deer most every year.

Does that make .22's a deer cartridge, and why are these guys using them successfully ? And tralking them up so much ?

Capable of killing deer ? Yes. Prudent ? No.

And to be frank (from here on down), they (TV shows) want people to come and hunt in Africa, with whatever company they are hunting with.

"Pitching" a safari on this forum would, for the most part, be a waste of time.

The majority of the posters here think that if you have a rifle that recoils more than a 30 '06, you will be disabled for life, get severe brain damage, will no longer be able to have children, make you flinch and limp until the day you die and will recoil so hard it will kill your Mother ! !

Now if I told you you must bring a rifle that recoils 2 or 3 times as much as an '06, some would shutter, run and hide.


As I have said before, I did not write this, but I wish I would have -
"If you are going to take the life of a noble animal . . . . . . . . . . . . . you should feel the pain as well"

Your making a lot of assumptions about some of the people in this thread. Personally, I couldn't hunt with a PH who doesn't respect a hunter because he doesn't shoot what he (the PH) likes. I don't know how you stay in business with that attitude of yours but i'm sure you have a long list of return clients so recruiting new one's doesn't seem to be that important to you. Have a nice day.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by CroMagnum

Your making a lot of assumptions about some of the people in this thread. Personally, I couldn't hunt with a PH who doesn't respect a hunter because he doesn't shoot what he (the PH) likes.

You may have missed this statement.

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

Now, people can bring whatever cartridge they want ! No problem by me.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by CroMagnum

. I don't know how you stay in business with that attitude of yours

By giving good accurate information, with no sunshine pumping information to clients about the effectiveness of their 45/70 with Garret loads (or whatever his name is), e.g. never lying to a client about what to expect and what he need to do to have an enjoyable safari.