Moose Cartridge

[Mooseman684]

From Whitetails.com..."A bull moose can reach 1,400 pounds, and the subspecies tundra moose Alces alces gigas , found in Alaska , can be 1,800 pounds and 8½ feet long. Their size doesn't limit their speed at all - those long legs can move a moose along at up to 35 miles per hour.

I told ya so....

[squirrelbaster]

wow, moose a amazing creatures...living in ohio, i have never even seen a moose in person, but now i realy want to!

[Onesonek]

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

Sam, if you go back and look at the post, I suggested a range of cartridges from a .270 at the bottom end with 1800 ft-lbs of energy at 300 yards to a 7mmRM with 2200 ft-lbs, and that cartridges between should be fine. In the past I have suggested 1000 ft-lbs for deer, and don't change that. Yes 1500 ft-lbs for moose may work, and I think that is backed by many sucessful hunters using a 6.5x55 mauser. What is inconsistent about that? Sure, if you can hold a handgun with 1000 ft-lbs of energy for deer and 1500 for moose, and you can get it on target, then it probably will do the job. However 400 ft-lbs for deer is not ethical, and I have not changed any opinion here either. I really don't understand where you get the cannon for deer and popgun for moose concept?

Well, I read Sam's cannon/popgun, and seen it as statement of logic.
You consider 1000 ft/lbs as min. for deer. That equates to 4-5:1 energy to weight ratio(average deer weight). Your 1500 ft/lbs is 1-2:1, maybe less on the Alaska-Yukon variety as Mooseman pointed out 1600 # on the hoof.
So I don't really see why 1-2:1 with 400 ft/lbs out of handgun specially with it's larger frontal dia. isn't sufficient for deer according to some of your standards.
Each to their own however. Which leads me back .270, I don't see any major issues with it on the smaller sub-species of moose. I persosnally wouldn't use the 140 gr.. My preference if using that caliber/chambering would be the 150's, but would still consider it a mininum or marginal.
But I don't really considered any of the magnums .30 cal and above as overkill. Necessary all the time??? maybe not. But ego boosters??? Not hardly. It just a matter of personal choice. I would feel better with more power in situations where the great bears roam.
Then again, I only have a 900 lb. cow moose to my experience, so I probably shouldn't have said this much.

Dave

[Ron AKA]

Originally Posted by Onesonek

Well, I read Sam's cannon/popgun, and seen it as statement of logic.
You consider 1000 ft/lbs as min. for deer. That equates to 4-5:1 energy to weight ratio(average deer weight). Your 1500 ft/lbs is 1-2:1, maybe less on the Alaska-Yukon variety as Mooseman pointed out 1600 # on the hoof.
So I don't really see why 1-2:1 with 400 ft/lbs out of handgun specially with it's larger frontal dia. isn't sufficient for deer according to some of your standards.
Each to their own however. Which leads me back .270, I don't see any major issues with it on the smaller sub-species of moose. I persosnally wouldn't use the 140 gr.. My preference if using that caliber/chambering would be the 150's, but would still consider it a mininum or marginal.
But I don't really considered any of the magnums .30 cal and above as overkill. Necessary all the time??? maybe not. But ego boosters??? Not hardly. It just a matter of personal choice. I would feel better with more power in situations where the great bears roam.
Then again, I only have a 900 lb. cow moose to my experience, so I probably shouldn't have said this much.

Dave

Dave you speak some logic to be considered, and I appreciate your honest comments. I came up with those numbers from a combination of personal experience, and written evidence. Is it right or is it wrong? Probably no one can be absolutely sure. I'm sure however, it is in the ballpark, and values of half that or double that are out of the ballpark.

[turner]

Originally Posted by Onesonek

Well, I read Sam's cannon/popgun, and seen it as statement of logic.
You consider 1000 ft/lbs as min. for deer. That equates to 4-5:1 energy to weight ratio(average deer weight). Your 1500 ft/lbs is 1-2:1, maybe less on the Alaska-Yukon variety as Mooseman pointed out 1600 # on the hoof.
So I don't really see why 1-2:1 with 400 ft/lbs out of handgun specially with it's larger frontal dia. isn't sufficient for deer according to some of your standards.
Each to their own however. Which leads me back .270, I don't see any major issues with it on the smaller sub-species of moose. I persosnally wouldn't use the 140 gr.. My preference if using that caliber/chambering would be the 150's, but would still consider it a mininum or marginal.
But I don't really considered any of the magnums .30 cal and above as overkill. Necessary all the time??? maybe not. But ego boosters??? Not hardly. It just a matter of personal choice. I would feel better with more power in situations where the great bears roam.
Then again, I only have a 900 lb. cow moose to my experience, so I probably shouldn't have said this much.

Dave

Sounded OK to my ears bud....! Thanks, Ed

[samuel]

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

Sam, if you go back and look at the post, I suggested a range of cartridges from a .270 at the bottom end with 1800 ft-lbs of energy at 300 yards to a 7mmRM with 2200 ft-lbs, and that cartridges between should be fine. In the past I have suggested 1000 ft-lbs for deer, and don't change that. Yes 1500 ft-lbs for moose may work, and I think that is backed by many sucessful hunters using a 6.5x55 mauser. What is inconsistent about that? Sure, if you can hold a handgun with 1000 ft-lbs of energy for deer and 1500 for moose, and you can get it on target, then it probably will do the job. However 400 ft-lbs for deer is not ethical, and I have not changed any opinion here either. I really don't understand where you get the cannon for deer and popgun for moose concept?

It wasn't my concept,it was your concept of cartridges that would do the job.You stated that handguns just couldn't do the job on deer because they werent powerful enough and then chose what is considered by many as a 'popgun'for elk/moose hunting.My concept and experience is that ft lbs is the worst way to judge whether a cartridge can make a clean and ethical kill.I believe it was about 150yds that I shot an antelope once with a .375H&H and it ran about 125yds(I forgot exactly,but it ran).At this range this cartridge is carrying close to 4000ft lbs energy and is already about as large in diammeter as a 6mm will get,and since it went out the far side released all the energy that a 6mm could release.I have seen many antelope dropped in their tracks by a .243win/6mmrem.with no effort. At the same time I know of cases where the .243win/6mmrem.were used for clean kills on elk,and altho I dont know of it,probably moose.I know the .375 H&H will drop elk/moose in their tracks because I have done it.A friend of mine,hunting in the Yukon,using 180gr partician bullets shot a ram 4 times from 125yds with a .30-06 and it fell over a little cliff and was still alive when they got to it.I would virtually guarantee a .243 with 100gr partition bullets would have killed it in its tracks if they hit the same place as he hit.I once killed a deer with a .44 cap&ball revolver using 35gr,s of powder and the ball entered just behind the ribs on the left side and was lodged in a broken rib on the right side.The deer dropped within 50yds.That is a whole 250ft lbs at best.Both lungs were destroyed.I also shot a 4point muledeer from 50yds with a .45 Colt and dropped it in its tracks.That would be about 350ft lbs at best.I have shot many deer with cartridges that topped 1500ft lbs at impact and had them run up to 150yds.Ft lbs mean little,it is bullet action and most of all bullet placement that make sucessful/humane kills.I like cartridges that give me the advantage and choose bullets that match the game I am hunting.I don't believe it is possible to go by ft lbs/energy if the bullet doesn't release the energy in the game.I see you finally came to the conclusion that handguns are viable deer guns,now if you wish, try debating how much energy would have to be released in the game to make a clean kill instead of how much energy a given bullet has at a given yardage.I have seen 100lbs energy kill a deer cleanly and humanely,if the firearm was in the right hands and the right bullet was used. sam.

[cold queso]

In the 1980's I frequented a camp in Ontario where moose were plentiful. The old geezer's that ran the camp used a .35 remington and a 7.65 Argentine. They ate moose meat all winter.

The big gun in camp was a young guide with a 7mm magnum. All of us from the states used .270s and 30-06s. I never recall anyone losing a moose they shot, but most of the hunting was from a canoe while being paddled along shore. Nice shots at 50 to 75 yards.

Of course, everyone that wants a 375 wonder-misslie with a $700 16 power drop compensating scope doesn't want to hear this. But part of the reason you go north to hunt is to test yourself - stalking, portaging, glassing swamps, etc. It's the old adage of substituting technology for skill. To each his own, but I always enjoying the simple hunting.

The last moose I shot was with a 30-06 shooting (gasp!) 180 Core-Lokt bullets off the shelf. Still took 2 Beaver flights to get the meat out...

(on the flip side, I watched a Minnesota Moose take about a dozen 180's and still keep running through sunflower fields and a couple of barbed wire fences. I don't think a .50 BMG would have stopped him)

[SoDakHunter]

You guys make us bowhunters laugh uncontrollably. I've taken large Elk, (and no doubt could down a moose if i had the desire, i think they taste like crap) at up to 30 yards with 300 fps and 82 ft lbs of energy so... WEEEEEEEE

[Mooseman684]

Yeah ,But how big of a hole do your Broadheads cut and how far do you have to Chase them ??? I'm glad you don't like the flavor of Moose...More for Me !!!! LOL
Rich

[Onesonek]

Originally Posted by SoDakHunter

You guys make us bowhunters laugh uncontrollably. I've taken large Elk, (and no doubt could down a moose if i had the desire, i think they taste like crap) at up to 30 yards with 300 fps and 82 ft lbs of energy so... WEEEEEEEE

Ya, but you are talking two different projectiles with completely different modes of tissue damage. The requiements of speed, energy/momentum, are vastly different for function between the two.

Dave

[SoDakHunter]

Originally Posted by Onesonek

Ya, but you are talking two different projectiles with completely different modes of tissue damage. The requiements of speed, energy/momentum, are vastly different for function between the two.

Dave

Yeah basically just wanted to mess with you guys. It was getting pretty heated.

[Onesonek]

Originally Posted by SoDakHunter

Yeah basically just wanted to mess with you guys. It was getting pretty heated.

LOL..I like the pokey

[samuel]

I love bow hunting,so there,My sucess rate is very low,wont shoot until the deer/elk forces me to,but my enjoyment is emense. never lost an animal I hit except a woodchuck once. sam.

[CroMagnum]

First choice for me would be 375 H&H shooting 300 gr Nosler Partitions.......ok, maybe it would be my 45-70 with 420 gr Garrett Hammerheads...........no wait....maybe my 270 using 150 gr Nosler Partitions. I don't know, I can't make up my mind.

[Ron AKA]

Originally Posted by samuel

It wasn't my concept,it was your concept of cartridges that would do the job.You stated that handguns just couldn't do the job on deer because they werent powerful enough and then chose what is considered by many as a 'popgun'for elk/moose hunting.My concept and experience is that ft lbs is the worst way to judge whether a cartridge can make a clean and ethical kill.I believe it was about 150yds that I shot an antelope once with a .375H&H and it ran about 125yds(I forgot exactly,but it ran).At this range this cartridge is carrying close to 4000ft lbs energy and is already about as large in diammeter as a 6mm will get,and since it went out the far side released all the energy that a 6mm could release.I have seen many antelope dropped in their tracks by a .243win/6mmrem.with no effort. At the same time I know of cases where the .243win/6mmrem.were used for clean kills on elk,and altho I dont know of it,probably moose.I know the .375 H&H will drop elk/moose in their tracks because I have done it.A friend of mine,hunting in the Yukon,using 180gr partician bullets shot a ram 4 times from 125yds with a .30-06 and it fell over a little cliff and was still alive when they got to it.I would virtually guarantee a .243 with 100gr partition bullets would have killed it in its tracks if they hit the same place as he hit.I once killed a deer with a .44 cap&ball revolver using 35gr,s of powder and the ball entered just behind the ribs on the left side and was lodged in a broken rib on the right side.The deer dropped within 50yds.That is a whole 250ft lbs at best.Both lungs were destroyed.I also shot a 4point muledeer from 50yds with a .45 Colt and dropped it in its tracks.That would be about 350ft lbs at best.I have shot many deer with cartridges that topped 1500ft lbs at impact and had them run up to 150yds.Ft lbs mean little,it is bullet action and most of all bullet placement that make sucessful/humane kills.I like cartridges that give me the advantage and choose bullets that match the game I am hunting.I don't believe it is possible to go by ft lbs/energy if the bullet doesn't release the energy in the game.I see you finally came to the conclusion that handguns are viable deer guns,now if you wish, try debating how much energy would have to be released in the game to make a clean kill instead of how much energy a given bullet has at a given yardage.I have seen 100lbs energy kill a deer cleanly and humanely,if the firearm was in the right hands and the right bullet was used. sam.

Sam, there is no argument that bullet design is important. I believe Nosler Partitions are an old and proven design that works. We will probably have to agree to disagree on the point of energy. I maintain, and this has been a consistent point, that there are some reasonable minimums that need to be set for ethical hunting. Those levels don't change if the bullet is shot from a handgun. Accuracy however, can suffer, and bullet placement is just as important as sufficient energy.

[HEMI]

There is no winning with them Ron, their animals are bigger,guns choices are better and women prettier. Every 1 here that has hunted Alaska has shot a 70" 2000lb moose while wrestling a 10' griz. 1800lb moose are not the norm even in Alaska.
They do get bigger than northen bc, alberta, sask etc but not a half a ton.
Any thing from a 06 to 338 with good bullets is a good choice.
I am quite happy with my 7mm mag for elk and moose.

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

Like I said before, I hope the younger hunters and those just starting seek out other advice on sensible cartridge sizes for game. The thread below is an example of such advice.

Sensible Rifle Cartridges

Ron

That is not your opinion, that is Chuck Hawk's opinion.

Being that you are a proponent of small calibers with fast bullets, please tell me just how you (as in yourself) calculate killing power.

Your response will be enlightening.

[Ron AKA]

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

Being that you are a proponent of small calibers with fast bullets, please tell me just how you (as in yourself) calculate killing power.

There are three critical components:
1. Energy (ft-lbs) at impact
2. Bullet design to effectively utilize that energy to penetrate skin, rib cage bone, and cause damage to the lungs
3. Bullet placement to get the bullet into the vital area

[Phil Lozano]

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

There are three critical components:
1. Energy (ft-lbs) at impact
2. Bullet design to effectively utilize that energy to penetrate skin, rib cage bone, and cause damage to the lungs
3. Bullet placement to get the bullet into the vital area

And how do you determine # 1 ?

According to your answer, #2, . . . bullet design effects killing power ? How ?

#3, shot placement has nothing to do with the killing power of a cartridge.

Please expand your answer. Thanks.

[Ron AKA]

Originally Posted by Phil Lozano

And how do you determine # 1 ?
According to your answer, #2, . . . bullet design effects killing power ? How ?
#3, shot placement has nothing to do with the killing power of a cartridge.
Please expand your answer. Thanks.

1. 1/2MVsquared
2. Bullets have to be able to work at distance when the energy is marginal (still penetrate and expand), and also up close then there is too much (not blow up). Without getting into the detail, the Nosler Partition and the knock off A-Frame from Swift are good examples of making that compromise.
3. Sounds like you have an opinion on that already. Try shooting a moose in the tail...

If you could be more civil with your questions I could be more civil with the answers.