Enough Gun vs Shot Placement

[buzzsaw]

This subject has been a source of entertainment for longer than I can remember. To the best of my recollection no argument I have ever offered or been offered on the matter has ever changed anyones mind on it either.

I will offer one personnally observed outcome of STUFF HAPPENS that left me scratching and thinking.

In 1968 I had recently returned to a more or less civilazied protion of the World and had some time to kill (school hadn't started and nobody was hireing). An article in the local newspaper intrigued me so I sat in on part of a trial being conducted locally. A local bartender was being prosecuted for using excess force to end an episode in his bar. A patron apparently took exception to being cut off from further purchase of adult beverage and went to his truck for reinforcements. He returned to the bar with a machete and announced his intention to carve the turkey behind the bar. The bartender responded with a 1911 Colt from which he dispensed the full mag. center of mass to the patron with the machete. Undetered the gentleman with the machete proceeded toward the bar. The bartender resorted to his fall back option (12ga. double barrel) and used both barrels. The local sherriff being well informed on the efficacy of the 1911 felt that the 12ga. was excessive and relied on the local court to resolve the issue. 12 local citizens sided with the bartender. I am still puzzled as to why round 2+ from the colt were necessary but STUFF HAPPENS.

[bigione]

Shot placement can and does do wonders. Shot placement with larger caliber does more wonders. Use what you got. If you don't have enough moxie, avoid the issue if you can.

[Dakoma]

I have all that is needed to put together a rifle in .458 Winchester Mag. rifle and most my loads will be around 45/70 or 450 Marlin but with an option of going to the heavy African loads if needed and most people feel there is no need for the cartridge here in North America but a 45/70 or 450 Marlin are ok.Well I think they should look at the load data for a beefed up load in the 45-70 because it has been used in Africa for Water Buffalo and other game,and since I will be the one loading the ammo 350grain bullets for hogs and bear or deer would be my main loads but with an option of a 500 grain load just in case things get ugly.

[Midas]

Originally Posted by Dakoma

I have all that is needed to put together a rifle in .458 Winchester Mag. rifle and most my loads will be around 45/70 or 450 Marlin but with an option of going to the heavy African loads if needed and most people feel there is no need for the cartridge here in North America but a 45/70 or 450 Marlin are ok.Well I think they should look at the load data for a beefed up load in the 45-70 because it has been used in Africa for Water Buffalo and other game,and since I will be the one loading the ammo 350grain bullets for hogs and bear or deer would be my main loads but with an option of a 500 grain load just in case things get ugly.

I have had great success using 350, 405, and 500 grain loads in my .458 Lott, I like to run the 350 grain Speer flat nose about 2750 fps, makes a great load for hogs and black bear!

I like to load the 405 grain CP hardcast about 2500 fps, and have found that the penetration with this bullet is superb, and doesn't really ruin a lot of meat.

I have also loaded the 500 grain Barnes TSX to about 2250, shoots good, but haven't experimented with it much, just on paper.

Yup, it's a lot of fun owning a .458, even with light loads it's head and shoulders above anything the 45-70 can offer. And it really hammers whatever it hits!

[FortyXDM]

Originally Posted by dmsbandit

Eskimos have been killing seals, walrus, polar bears, caribou with guns that some wouldn't shoot anything but varmits with for years. It's all about shot placement and a steady aim. If you can't hit them, you can't kill them.

Not sure if I agree with the statement, "it is ALL about placement. Well placed is one thing for a .458 and quite another for a 308. It is true that Eskimos have used many different firearms to bring down large animals - but, Eskimos don't have gardens and very few grocery stores nearby. I am sure they would gladly opt for the heavy calibers if they could.

Tom

[bobvonb]

apparently the animals in question don't watch the Outdoor Channel. All animals are supposed to drop in their tracks when shot from any distance with anything without question, thank you very much.

I find it interesting that these shows generally do not even mention the cartridge being used anymore. As a wee child I can remember seeing "hunting shows" on the old 13" B&W. Quite different. Col. Snotty Bottoms would dispatch a charging elephant at 6 feet 3 inches and then proceed in great detail to mention that he was using a double-barrelled Gherkins SuperExpress in .777 caliber manufactured by Snippy and Snippy of Lower West London because he thought his .666 was too small... or, if it was a long shot on a Greater I-Kid-You bull, that he used a 67" barrel anti-aircraft .066 calibre In-Field bolt-action with a stock made from an old Chippendale hi-boy, handloaded with 400gr of BoomBoom hand grenade powder, with bullets made from melted down Panzer tank tracks, using iron peep sights personally polished by Sir Winston Churchill.

I say use enough gun AND hit em where you are supposed to.

[Dakoma]

Originally Posted by Midas

I have had great success using 350, 405, and 500 grain loads in my .458 Lott, I like to run the 350 grain Speer flat nose about 2750 fps, makes a great load for hogs and black bear!

I like to load the 405 grain CP hardcast about 2500 fps, and have found that the penetration with this bullet is superb, and doesn't really ruin a lot of meat.

I have also loaded the 500 grain Barnes TSX to about 2250, shoots good, but haven't experimented with it much, just on paper.

Yup, it's a lot of fun owning a .458, even with light loads it's head and shoulders above anything the 45-70 can offer. And it really hammers whatever it hits!

Thanks first positive answer from a fellow shooter I've got,everone mostly states that it is to much for hunting North American game but dont consider what handloading can do,loaded up or down they will make big nasty holes in whatever they hit just like the 45/70 or better and they love cast bullets,I like the Lott cartridge also but dont have a action long enough.Also been thinking of the paperpatched bullets,soft lead that expands to the size of a silver dollar like the old Buffalo hunters used to use.

[Midas]

Originally Posted by Dakoma

Thanks first positive answer from a fellow shooter I've got,everone mostly states that it is to much for hunting North American game but dont consider what handloading can do,loaded up or down they will make big nasty holes in whatever they hit just like the 45/70 or better and they love cast bullets,I like the Lott cartridge also but dont have a action long enough.Also been thinking of the paperpatched bullets,soft lead that expands to the size of a silver dollar like the old Buffalo hunters used to use.

Well, that's to be expected, a lot of NA hunters and shooters don't like to think outide of the box too much! I get my share of off color comments when I show up at the range with anything more potent than a 30-06.

Little do they know that big bores are some of the most versatile cartridges around.

[FISHPOND]

Have to say that I don't think out side of the box. I have never thought about using such a large rifle for North America. Truth is I don't reload right now and the price for ammo on those larger caliber is more then I want to pay.

[Dakoma]

Sent a email to Rifle Sporting Firearms Journal to find out about Phil Shoemaker's .458 Magnum,just a little information.I never got a reply until the next issue came out,and there it was on the front cover.He called it Ole Ugly and Phil did a full story about his rifle,it had many coats of paint but the action was verry smooth from many years use.And as a Guide in Alaska it had saved his bacon and those he took out hunting many times,so I got my answer and then some.

[Dakoma]

Phil Shoemaker's Ole Ugly .458 Winchester Magnum.

[Midas]

Thanks for the pics Dakoma, you can that tell rifle has a lot of field experience, if it could only talk!

[Dakoma]

Originally Posted by Midas

Thanks for the pics Dakoma, you can that tell rifle has a lot of field experience, if it could only talk!

One of his clients after using his available ammo told Phil to have a go at a 1800 pound Bull Moose at 400 yds.he held 4 ft. high and hit him with a 500 gr.Trophy Bonded bullet and the Bull droped in its tracks.Considering velisity the bullet was doing 1,100 fps.at impact,it was found on the other side and expanded to over 1",I have to say impressive.

[FortyXDM]

Originally Posted by bobvonb

apparently the animals in question don't watch the Outdoor Channel. All animals are supposed to drop in their tracks when shot from any distance with anything without question, thank you very much.

I find it interesting that these shows generally do not even mention the cartridge being used anymore. As a wee child I can remember seeing "hunting shows" on the old 13" B&W. Quite different. Col. Snotty Bottoms would dispatch a charging elephant at 6 feet 3 inches and then proceed in great detail to mention that he was using a double-barrelled Gherkins SuperExpress in .777 caliber manufactured by Snippy and Snippy of Lower West London because he thought his .666 was too small... or, if it was a long shot on a Greater I-Kid-You bull, that he used a 67" barrel anti-aircraft .066 calibre In-Field bolt-action with a stock made from an old Chippendale hi-boy, handloaded with 400gr of BoomBoom hand grenade powder, with bullets made from melted down Panzer tank tracks, using iron peep sights personally polished by Sir Winston Churchill.

I say use enough gun AND hit em where you are supposed to.

Bob - I am pretty sure that the .777 Gherkin was discontinued in the late 80's. Seems I recall it was getting far too many shooters in a "pickle"

[jtuck]

Well you guys say what you will, but you'll never discourage me from taking the trusty ole Red Ryder bear hunting!

[rockman7]

wanna bet the guy taking the picture had a 458 winmag over his shoulder ?

[ezearln]

You guys are just too much at times, had me laughing all the way through these posts! Fact is the heaviest caliber I currently own is a .30/06 but if and when I am in dangerous game territory I load up the maximum round my rifle will take usually 220 gr partitions and I am usually toting an M1911 with at least three spare magazines with a mix of FMJ and HP ammo, I have yet to encounter in NA an animal that doesn't have DEEP regret about a charge on my position, most beomming a tasty BBQ the following afternoon. But again that is just my personal experiences. Others may differ.

[deadzero]

Originally Posted by FISHPOND

Have to say that I don't think out side of the box. I have never thought about using such a large rifle for North America. Truth is I don't reload right now and the price for ammo on those larger caliber is more then I want to pay.

Hmmm.... maybe better to think outside the box than to be placed in one.

"to eat or be eaten, that is the question".

Hmmm... the price of a big bullet is worth more than the free personal tour of an animals digestive tract.

[samuel]

Originally Posted by jtuck

Well you guys say what you will, but you'll never discourage me from taking the trusty ole Red Ryder bear hunting!

Yeah,but some hunters actually get off the couch and go out in the wild to hunt. sam.

[dmsbandit]

Originally Posted by FortyXDM

Not sure if I agree with the statement, "it is ALL about placement. Well placed is one thing for a .458 and quite another for a 308. It is true that Eskimos have used many different firearms to bring down large animals - but, Eskimos don't have gardens and very few grocery stores nearby. I am sure they would gladly opt for the heavy calibers if they could.

Tom

I'm sure they would. But the point of my comment was that you need to put the bullet in the right place. I've killed deer with everything from a 22LR to a 45colt. All will do the job if you point the gun correctly. The closest kill was 25 feet with a 308, and the furthest was about 250 yds with a 284 win and a 154 grain hornady rn at 2500 fps. Hit them in the vitals, and they die.