Enough Gun vs Shot Placement

big shrek · 07-03-2009, 03:38 AM

I believe in BOTH, Enough Gun AND Shot Placement.

Covers yer bacon bits

CYA!!!

Yeah, I've used a .22lr for deer when I was a teen and it was all I had...it's Do-able...but it certainly ain't Optimal. As I've gotten older, I can appreciate using a .30-06 a lot more.

samuel · 07-03-2009, 05:47 AM

I killed my first deer when I was 14yrs old with a .30-30 at 175yds.I was using 150gr roundnose Rem.cartridges.It was a oneshot kill shoulder shot.The same shot would have worked behind the shoulder but I probably would have had to trail it.In those days we had two favorite bullets,the Win.,silvertip and the Rem.,corelokt.Both were good bullets with the same strengths and weaknesses.They would expand good on lighter resistance as long as you had the fps to make them work.Lighter bullets expanded easier making them deadlier at lower fps and very effective at shorter ranges but at longer ranges they lacked the weight for deep penetration,especially if they met heavy resistance like bone.Heavier bullets had the weight to penetrate but often didn't expand adequately to release enough energy to make a clean kill.Still the heavies worked best because they didn't frag as easily and penetrated deep enough to release energy all the way.They worked best at shorter ranges where they had adequate fps to make them expand.They really worked good if they had adequate fps and met heavy resistance like bone.The problem with bullets in those days was that they weren't bonded and would (could) rip the jacket off and fragment on heavy bone.So you had bullets that were great when they worked but if something was wrong like too little resistance to make them expand to release energy or too much resistance that would make them frag or shed weight so they lost penetration,they failed to make a clean kill in either case.Today we have a great bullet selection with many bonded bullets that will expand three times their diammeter and still retain 90+% of their weight.(one of the best is the solids with the plastic tip to make them expand.No bonding is necessary because you only have one kind of metal.) The bonded or buffered bullets work exelently for what they were designed for.And yet,even today,with all the high tech,bullet mfg,s will admit they can design a bullet on the computer and build it,take it out and test it,and it will fail miserably.They have some great bullets,but all are specific as to kill area,fps,and shot placement.You cannot take a bullet designed to hit heavy bone,(shoulder shot) resist rapid expansion and penetrate adequately to kill and shoot an animal in a low resistant area and expect to release enough energy for a definite kill.And you can't take a bullet designed to expand adequately in a low resistance area (behind the shoulder) and hit heavy resistance like bone and expect it to penetrate adequately to insure a clean kill.You cannot take a bullet designed to resist opening at high velocity on heavy game and expect it to make clean kills on smaller game with less resistance.Nor can you take a bullet designed to open adequately to make a clean kill on smaller game with less resistance and shoot heavier animals with more resistance and have it penetrate adequately.Shot placement means a lot,but without proper bullet selection it can and will fail.A bullet can hit perfectly and still fail to deliver a clean kill if designed for a different area on the animal or the resistance it will encounter.If this weren't the case,FMJ,s are all we would need.And without adequate bullet selection fmj,s "might" be best because at least they would penetrate.Contact your bullet/ammo Co,s and give your intended use of their product and they can and will help.They aren't going to advise wrong and have it come back on them. ,,,sam.

Lobo0311 · 07-03-2009, 02:23 PM

I think the issue of enough gun is a 2 fold matter, not just enough for the game but also has be a comfortable caliber for the individual shooter. If the hunter doent react well to the recoil of higher calibers shot placement will be off ( they'll flinch or jerk the trigger or whatever), also the caliber used for some will dictate the shot placement, as will the time you have to make your shot, and the individual marksmanship skill. A .338 will likely drop anything hit center mass......enough gun, while a .300 WSM or a .308 to the head/spine will have the same effect of the same animal........ shot placement. There are just a whole lot of variables that come into play. For varmints one will probably get closer shot oppurtunities, while those who go after dangerous game will try to take longer shots so as not to get mauled,trampled or otherwise injured by a critter that just doesnt realize it's dead yet.

samuel · 07-03-2009, 06:37 PM

I always liked to be as close as possible to dangerous (I call them big) game so I could hit them with maximum power.It beats blood trailing out through the bushes. ,,,sam.

Lobo0311 · 07-06-2009, 01:32 PM

This may well be one of those long winded threads as so many ppl have differing P.O.V's......LOL.

moosemike · 07-06-2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samuel

I always liked to be as close as possible to dangerous (I call them big) game so I could hit them with maximum power.It beats blood trailing out through the bushes. ,,,sam.

Sound advice.

07-03-2009, 03:38 AM	#101
big shrek Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Northwest, FL Posts: 3,015	I believe in BOTH, Enough Gun AND Shot Placement. Covers yer bacon bits CYA!!! Yeah, I've used a .22lr for deer when I was a teen and it was all I had...it's Do-able...but it certainly ain't Optimal. As I've gotten older, I can appreciate using a .30-06 a lot more. __________________ In every Unit...there is a Scrounger...

07-03-2009, 02:23 PM	#103
Lobo0311 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Northeast Kansas Posts: 615	I think the issue of enough gun is a 2 fold matter, not just enough for the game but also has be a comfortable caliber for the individual shooter. If the hunter doent react well to the recoil of higher calibers shot placement will be off ( they'll flinch or jerk the trigger or whatever), also the caliber used for some will dictate the shot placement, as will the time you have to make your shot, and the individual marksmanship skill. A .338 will likely drop anything hit center mass......enough gun, while a .300 WSM or a .308 to the head/spine will have the same effect of the same animal........ shot placement. There are just a whole lot of variables that come into play. For varmints one will probably get closer shot oppurtunities, while those who go after dangerous game will try to take longer shots so as not to get mauled,trampled or otherwise injured by a critter that just doesnt realize it's dead yet. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?

07-06-2009, 01:32 PM	#105
Lobo0311 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Northeast Kansas Posts: 615	This may well be one of those long winded threads as so many ppl have differing P.O.V's......LOL. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?

07-03-2009, 05:47 AM	#102
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 10,792	I killed my first deer when I was 14yrs old with a .30-30 at 175yds.I was using 150gr roundnose Rem.cartridges.It was a oneshot kill shoulder shot.The same shot would have worked behind the shoulder but I probably would have had to trail it.In those days we had two favorite bullets,the Win.,silvertip and the Rem.,corelokt.Both were good bullets with the same strengths and weaknesses.They would expand good on lighter resistance as long as you had the fps to make them work.Lighter bullets expanded easier making them deadlier at lower fps and very effective at shorter ranges but at longer ranges they lacked the weight for deep penetration,especially if they met heavy resistance like bone.Heavier bullets had the weight to penetrate but often didn't expand adequately to release enough energy to make a clean kill.Still the heavies worked best because they didn't frag as easily and penetrated deep enough to release energy all the way.They worked best at shorter ranges where they had adequate fps to make them expand.They really worked good if they had adequate fps and met heavy resistance like bone.The problem with bullets in those days was that they weren't bonded and would (could) rip the jacket off and fragment on heavy bone.So you had bullets that were great when they worked but if something was wrong like too little resistance to make them expand to release energy or too much resistance that would make them frag or shed weight so they lost penetration,they failed to make a clean kill in either case.Today we have a great bullet selection with many bonded bullets that will expand three times their diammeter and still retain 90+% of their weight.(one of the best is the solids with the plastic tip to make them expand.No bonding is necessary because you only have one kind of metal.) The bonded or buffered bullets work exelently for what they were designed for.And yet,even today,with all the high tech,bullet mfg,s will admit they can design a bullet on the computer and build it,take it out and test it,and it will fail miserably.They have some great bullets,but all are specific as to kill area,fps,and shot placement.You cannot take a bullet designed to hit heavy bone,(shoulder shot) resist rapid expansion and penetrate adequately to kill and shoot an animal in a low resistant area and expect to release enough energy for a definite kill.And you can't take a bullet designed to expand adequately in a low resistance area (behind the shoulder) and hit heavy resistance like bone and expect it to penetrate adequately to insure a clean kill.You cannot take a bullet designed to resist opening at high velocity on heavy game and expect it to make clean kills on smaller game with less resistance.Nor can you take a bullet designed to open adequately to make a clean kill on smaller game with less resistance and shoot heavier animals with more resistance and have it penetrate adequately.Shot placement means a lot,but without proper bullet selection it can and will fail.A bullet can hit perfectly and still fail to deliver a clean kill if designed for a different area on the animal or the resistance it will encounter.If this weren't the case,FMJ,s are all we would need.And without adequate bullet selection fmj,s "might" be best because at least they would penetrate.Contact your bullet/ammo Co,s and give your intended use of their product and they can and will help.They aren't going to advise wrong and have it come back on them. ,,,sam.

07-03-2009, 06:37 PM	#104
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 10,792	I always liked to be as close as possible to dangerous (I call them big) game so I could hit them with maximum power.It beats blood trailing out through the bushes. ,,,sam.