[FS00008]

Taken word for word from a post by Librarian over on CalGuns.net
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=103660


"What is “loaded”?


As much as effort has been made to be accurate,

This is not legal advice!

This is a layperson’s summary of written law, with sufficient references that anyone could research the content.

For actual legal advice, consult YOUR attorney, whom you will PAY for an opinion.

Use your best judgement, including getting competent legal advice, before you act.



Note: ‘concealed’ and ‘how to transport’ are NOT included here.

FAQ first:

Yes, ammunition may be carried in the same container as the gun – loose ammunition or ammunition in ammo boxes does not make a gun loaded, because the ammunition is NOT “placed into a position from which it can be fired”.

Yes, you may transport loaded magazines and speed loaders, so long as they are not inserted into the magazine well or cylinder of the firearm. That does not make a gun loaded, because the ammunition carried that way is NOT “placed into a position from which it can be fired”.

No, a loaded magazine is not the same as a loaded weapon, and possession of a weapon and a loaded magazine for that weapon does not, necessarily, mean you have a loaded weapon.

Anyone who asserts something contrary to the above 3 points is simply wrong. That does not mean you cannot be arrested by uninformed or badly trained law enforcement, or charged with the crime of carrying a loaded weapon by an uninformed or politically motivated prosecutor. It does mean that, if it goes to court and you have good representation, the prosecution should lose on the law.

Your comfort level may lead you to do more than the law requires.

EXPLANATION:
California law has several usages of the term loaded in the Penal code and elsewhere.

The most common definition of loaded is from Penal Code 12031
Quote:
12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

[Since this post concentrates on loaded, other parts of 12031 are omitted, including the definitions of other terms in (a)(1).]

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm;

except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
THIS 12031(g) DEFINITION HAS BEEN MODIFIED BY CASE LAW!!!

The case is People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99 available at this link.

The key paragraphs of the decision are these:
Quote:
The term "loaded" has a commonly understood meaning: "to put a load or charge in (a device or piece of equipment) a gun" or "to put a load on or in a carrier, device, or container; esp: to insert the charge or cartridge into the chamber of a firearm." (Webster's New Collegiate Dict. (1976) p. 674.) Under the commonly understood meaning of the term "loaded," a firearm is "loaded" when a shell or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be fired; the shotgun is not "loaded" if the shell or cartridge is stored elsewhere and not yet placed in a firing position. The shells here were placed in a separate storage compartment of the shotgun and were not yet "loaded" as the term is commonly understood.

There is nothing in Health and Safety Code section 11370.1 which indicates the Legislature did not intend to use the term "loaded" in its commonly understood meaning.

We note Penal Code section 12031 states it is defining the term "loaded" "for the purposes of this section" (Pen. Code, § 12031, subd. (g)); it does not state it is applicable to a Health and Safety Code offense nor does Health and Safety Code section 11370.1 refer to the Penal Code definition.

Second, even if we were to accept the Attorney General's assertion that the definition of "loaded" contained in Penal Code section 12031, subdivision (g) applies to Health and Safety Code section 11370.1, subdivision (a), we would still conclude the shotgun here was not loaded.
…
[2] A statute "must be given a reasonable and commonsense interpretation consistent with the apparent purpose and intention of the Legislature, practical rather than technical in nature, and which, when applied, will result in wise policy rather than mischief or absurdity. [Citations.]" (Beaty v. Imperial Irrigation Dist. (1986) 186 Cal.App.3d 897, 902 [231 Cal.Rptr. 128].) "The words must be construed in context in light of the nature and obvious purpose of the statute where they appear. [Citation.]" (Decker v. City of Imperial Beach (1989) 209 Cal.App.3d 349, 354 [257 Cal.Rptr. 356]; Lakin v. Watkins Associated Industries (1993) 6 Cal.4th 644, 659 [25 Cal.Rptr.2d 109, 863 P.2d 179].)
…
Given the examples are all consistent with an intent to use the common meaning of "loaded," it follows the Legislature's use of the phrase "attached in any manner" to the firearm was intended to encompass a situation where a shell or cartridge might be attached to a firearm or "loaded" for firing by some unconventional method. The phrase does not demonstrate a clear Legislative intent to deem a firearm loaded no matter how a shell is attached to a firearm; in particular, it does not indicate a clear intent to deem a gun "loaded" when the ammunition, as here, is in a storage compartment which is not equivalent to either a magazine or clip and from which the ammunition cannot be fired. Our conclusion that the Legislature intended "loaded" as used in Penal Code section 12031 to reflect the common definition is supported by the court in People v. Heffner (1977) 70 Cal.App.3d 643, 650 [139 Cal.Rptr. 45], which reached the same conclusion …
So, following Clark, loaded means “a firearm is "loaded" when a shell or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be fired”. This is NOT restricted to shotguns.

NEW CASE LAW COULD CHANGE THIS – again, consult your own paid attorney for specifics regarding any legal action.


There are, however, MORE definitions of loaded for other circumstances. See next post. "

[FS00008]

"Less common usages of loaded and problems with possession of ammunition.

Post 2 of 3.

12001(j) only applies to 12023 (carry with intent to commit a felony).
Quote:
12001 (j) For purposes of Section 12023, a firearm shall be deemed to be "loaded" whenever both the firearm and the unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from the firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person.

12023. (a) Every person who carries a loaded firearm with the intent to commit a felony is guilty of armed criminal action.

171e only applies inside the State Capitol, legislative offices, office of the Governor, Governor’s residence, etc. Quote:
171c. Any person, except…, or a person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, who brings a loaded firearm into, or possesses a loaded firearm within, the State Capitol, any legislative office, any office of the Governor or other constitutional officer, or any hearing room in which any committee of the Senate or Assembly is conducting a hearing, or upon the grounds of the State Capitol, which is bounded by 10th, L, 15th, and N Streets in the City of Sacramento,

171d. Any person, … shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year, by fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment, or by imprisonment in the state prison, if he or she does any of the following:
(a) Brings a loaded firearm into, or possesses a loaded firearm within, the Governor's Mansion, or any other residence of the Governor, the residence of any other constitutional officer, or the residence of any Member of the Legislature.
(b) Brings a loaded firearm upon, or possesses a loaded firearm upon, the grounds of the Governor's Mansion or any other residence of the Governor, the residence of any other constitutional officer, or the residence of any Member of the Legislature.

171e. A firearm shall be deemed loaded for the purposes of Sections 171c and 171d whenever both the firearm and unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from such firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person.
Note that these definitions say nothing about magazines, only firearm and ammunition.


Fish and Game Code has a different definition: Quote:
2006. It is unlawful to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in any vehicle or conveyance or its attachments which is standing on or along or is being driven on or along any public highway or other way open to the public.
A rifle or shotgun shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in the firing chamber but not when the only cartridges or shells are in the magazine.

More obscure usages of loaded

There is a sentence enhancement for carrying concealed in PC 12025(b)(6)
Quote:
12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(b) Carrying a concealed firearm in violation of this section is punishable, as follows:
…
(6) By imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment if both of the following conditions are met:
(A) Both the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person and the unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from that firearm are either in the immediate possession of the person or readily accessible to that person, or the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person is loaded as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12031.
(B) The person is not listed with the Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 11106, as the registered owner of that pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(7) In all cases other than those specified in paragraphs (1) to (6), inclusive, by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.
So, if you either have a conventionally ‘loaded’ concealed weapon, or have the concealed weapon and ammunition for it, AND the weapon is not registered to you, you may get state prison instead of county jail.


There is a sentence enhancement for having a weapon and having armor-piercing ammunition:
Quote:
12022.2. (a) Any person who, while armed with a firearm in the commission or attempted commission of any felony, has in his or her immediate possession ammunition for the firearm designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, shall upon conviction of that felony or attempted felony, in addition and consecutive to the punishment prescribed for the felony or attempted felony, be punished by an additional term of 3, 4, or 10 years.
This is not quite ‘loaded’, but it is a case where possession of a kind of ammunition, without regard to whether it is actually in a weapon, is additionally a ‘bad thing’.


There is a sentence enhancement for those who commit defined street gang crimes and have both a weapon and a detachable magazine for it – whether or not there is ammunition and whether the weapon is loaded or unloaded (apparently in the 12031(g) sense):
Quote:
12021.5. (a) Every person who carries a loaded or unloaded firearm on his or her person, or in a vehicle, during the commission or attempted commission of any street gang crimes described in subdivision (a) or (b) of Section 186.22, shall, upon conviction of the felony or attempted felony, be punished by an additional term of imprisonment in the state prison for one, two, or three years in the court's discretion. The court shall impose the middle term unless there are circumstances in aggravation or mitigation. The court shall state the reasons for its enhancement choice on the record at the time of sentence.
(b) Every person who carries a loaded or unloaded firearm together with a detachable shotgun magazine, a detachable pistol magazine, a detachable magazine, or a belt-feeding device on his or her person, or in a vehicle, during the commission or attempted commission of any street gang crimes described in subdivision (a) or (b) of Section 186.22, shall, upon conviction of the felony or attempted felony, be punished by an additional term of imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or four years in the court's discretion. The court shall impose the middle term unless there are circumstances in aggravation or mitigation. The court shall state the reasons for its enhancement choice on the record at the time of sentence.

Health and Safety Code 11370 and 11550 refer to a loaded firearm, but do not define loaded (see People v Clark notes, prior post)."

[FS00008]

"Post 3 of 3

More concerns with ammunition:

Liberty1 points out that possession of a firearm and the ammunition for it at a gun show is illegal, unless LEO, guard, or vendor
Quote:
12071.4. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited as, the
Gun Show Enforcement and Security Act of 2000.

(g) No person at a gun show or event, other than security
personnel or sworn peace officers, shall possess at the same time
both a firearm and ammunition that is designed to be fired in the
firearm. Vendors having those items at the show for sale or
exhibition are exempt from this prohibition...

(l) Unless otherwise specified, a first violation of this section
is an infraction. Any second or subsequent violation is a
misdemeanor. Any person who commits an act which he or she knows to
be a violation of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor for a first
offense.
uclaplinker found another one I missed (that's why group efforts are so useful!): Penal Code 12316(c) prohibits bringing ammunition onto school grounds: Quote:
12316.
(c) Unless it is with the written permission of the school
district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school
authority, no person shall carry ammunition or reloaded ammunition
onto school grounds, except sworn law enforcement officers acting
within the scope of their duties or persons exempted under
subparagraph (A) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of Section
12027.

This subdivision shall not apply to a duly appointed peace
officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of
Title 3 of Part 2, ... , a person holding a valid license to carry the
firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of
Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, or an armored vehicle guard, who is
engaged in the performance of his or her duties, as defined in
subdivision (e) of Section 7521 of the Business and Professions Code.
A violation of this subdivision is punishable by imprisonment in a
county jail for a term not to exceed six months, a fine not to exceed
one thousand dollars ($1,000), or both the imprisonment and fine.
"district superintendent" seems to indicate K-12, but "equivalent school authority" might include colleges and universities as well."

[FS00008]

Y'all should really check this stuff out..

[R5CYA]

that one about the ammo for the gun at a show could really get a guy in trouble. say you brought a mosin to sell and found a great ammo deal. better get the gun sold before you pick up that ammo and leave i guess.

[Cyrano]

Do any of the morons who write these laws and regulations have ANY experience with firearms at all?

And have any of these halfwits ever been to a gun show? Do they have the first foggy notion of what it's like to be in quest mode and how infuriating it is to have to make a purchase, interrupt the quest and schlep your purchase to your car? Or how it feels to have something you had your eye on bought out from under you while you are engaged in complying with a bullshit, chickenshit law?

Or that none of their cockamamie definitions of "a loaded gun" even vaguely matches up with what a shooter understands a loaded gun to be?

This is the kind of muddled thinking the People get when they entrust law-making to people who neither understand a subject nor are astute enough to ask someone who does understand the subject and take their guidance from them?

[FS00008]

John, I've seen guys doing that all the time... I've also never seen the cops there do anything about it...

Cyrano... it's f****ng ridiculous... that's for sure.

[Horseshoer]

After reading this, I actually thought about moving. Where, I don't know. These moron's make law's. Nobody said they were smart. The down side is they make a good living, making our life hell. Just my opinion.

[blu97]

Stay, and fight back