Anyone out their hand load their carry munitions? It was a thought that has been floating around in my head for a while and wasn't sure if it was common place or not.
id advise against this. while weak, if you have to go to court to defend your actions, a prosecutor could say you made a MORE DEADLY bullet than one you can buy. while we all know here that is bogus, the public at large, which elected Bobo, wouldn't know he difference. YMMV
As long as you are in a firearms-sane place or one with castle laws (and stick to conventional reloading wisdom) you should be fine. Never seen where someone was prosecuted for using handloads in any case (there being some urban legend here due to unscrupulous prosecutors making cases with FACTORY black talons). This would be easily defensible in court (i.e. reloading ballistics are standardized just like factory ballistics--in fact you have MORE control over your rounds being safe and accurate. As long as you are sticking to published loading data there would be no problem).
Having said that I have also never seen a case where handcrafted ballistics beat factory ballistics or would have any major accuracy advantages in a defensive situation at typical defensive ranges (unless your gun had core reliability issues in which case you would need a new gun).
This would be easily defensible in court (i.e. reloading ballistics are standardized just like factory ballistics--in fact you have MORE control over your rounds being safe and accurate. As long as you are sticking to published loading data there would be no problem).
While I agree with you, wouldn't it be quite difficult to prove that the loads that you fired were "standardized" and did, in fact, conform to SAMMI specs.... ?
If Masaad Ayoob believes you're better off with commercially produced loads for your personal defense firearms in case you ever have to defend yourself in court because you defended yourself with a gun in the real world, I'd listen to him.
If Masaad Ayoob believes you're better off with commercially produced loads for your personal defense firearms in case you ever have to defend yourself in court because you defended yourself with a gun in the real world, I'd listen to him.
Actually I didn't see that in his post; it was in a follow on post. One lead to an acquittal (where the unscrupulous prosecutor tried to exploit the handload but it was absolutely rejected but DID demand expert testimony); the other had to do with the lack of GSR which wasn't so much the handloading but the expectation of forensics from a certain cartridge which wasn't present in the handload leading to the prosecution thinking someone was lying. In the cases there I read the handcrafted ammo did not end up being a factor but extra testimony WAS spent refudiating the claims (much like the Black Talons). The reading really does make a case for SYG/castle laws as well -- don't know if the prosecutors were motivated by ignorance or malice but either can land you in jail.
Thanks, Jay for the information link which I had never seen. I think it would be as difficult to prove that MY loads were to SAMMI specs (but if you had any left over these could be easily enough tested) as it would to show the same for a factory round (and these have variances as well and might well be used as in the cases if you got a weaker round that day)--in fact I would feel more comfortable making the case that I had direct control over the manufacture for more care and consistency (kind of like why I work on my car--if it is something I can fix. I do it not for cost but because I care more about the results than someone who has seen 12 other cars that day--it's MINE). I think that one could just as easily make the point that one handloads for accuracy which demands consistency and goes to the extra time to personally weigh each charge, inspect each component of each round, etc--getting better quality than factory rounds (I think someone trying to better factory energy levels is really looking for trouble--given the high performance ammo available). It probably doesn't help me personally that my favorite .44/.45 Colt rounds (and .45 AR) are factory wadcutters and labeled as "anti personnel" by the Buffalo Bore manufacturer, but I like the concept, accuracy and ballistics--and will continue to use them and if someone makes an issue out of it someday guess I'll just have to deal with it then. I guess you could make your reloads sound more friendly (Jay's safety carry ammunition) and it goes to show really anything can be used by someone unscrupulous. At the end of the day I don't think it matters a great deal.
I had read some of Massad Ayoob's take on using handloads for self defense some years ago. While an overzealous lawyer not be a problem in every case it obviously has been a problem in some situations.
I handload a lot but I figure that the cost of factory amunition is relatively cheap in comparison for CCW purposes.
(But realistically speaking, handloaders don't save any money anyway - they just shoot more)
i do
and i still havent found an instance of someone getting nailed in court for it.
i am sure it has happened but i cant find one.
You are correct. It is a myth! That said I still do not recommend you use hand loads simply because you can't load any that are as effective as the BEST self defense ammo out from the commercial companies. They have put a lot of time and money in R&D to come up with their loads and you simply do have the resources to match them!!!
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An armed society is not always polite, but it is a FREE AND SAFE SOCIETY!
As a new member here...I sure dont want to get off on any wrong foot
or what..
But any are welcome to read the additional info I put with my intro posts as someone asked...
Of course anyone should be cautious of any info per a web forum and always seek proper advice from your local authorities and or retained counsel.
I "saw" this thread that caught my eye as I initially looked into the CHL area....and is indeed a often asked question....before I could answer
or finish formulating my answer, as per my custom ( I am a super mod on an international forum) someone had already properly answered a lot of
it for me.
I dont know how many times I have read " I have never heard of ANY one being arrested or having ANY problems with using hand loaded or
reloaded non factory ammo for concealed/open or defensive use...
Well....you have now...and an indictment and prosecution as listed above per a Ayoob reference....and..you didnt even hear yet, of the western state officer....in good standing...used a type handgun that the local supplier only got about one of ammo in a year, so his "chief" gave him
permission to load his own...one night wrestled with a guy while guy was in drivers seat, guy grabbed cops gun...they wrestled..gun went off and destroyed guys jaw and face....but because of ammo...the ammo...cop escaped jail time, but lost job and pension...
I am not and will not have a peein match with anybody or one who will "by God I know what I know "...etc...but I ask anybody to explain to
me, why in the name of God and family when our own Fed and (my state) protects me from self incrimination, I would "seek" to do all I could to
place ammunition in the hands of a defense (civil) or DA prosecutor to use against me......I would really like to hear this...
If you have not been there, you have no idea what they will indeed do with this, and any info they can get their hands on.
With the ease and availability of Hornady or similar ammunition "listed"...listed....remember that word !....and ammo available that even the FBI uses, or even.....plain off the shelf target loads from Wally World...etc..
Keep the ammo you will use "for defense" just for that...save the box with any markings or LOT numbers on it until the LAST round is gone....
When I say "listed"...I refer to something that has been made for a specified use or as stated etc....as in "Personal or Defense Ammo "...
Yes.....if you happen to have a pistol or other weapon in your safe and it happens to be loaded with non factory loads...and you grab it in
a robbery at home or threat....99.999% of the time per a justified shoot.. you will have no problem....but if...you make a regular habit...of using or carrying non factory loads...in a weapon...you have BEFOREHAND decided
to carry/use/make available for personal defense or to stop a threat....
Well....I dont know what else to say to any except keep an eye on Florida and do your best to imagine if you can...Al Sharpton using anything he has
with your name on it on MSNBC if ammo was an issue...or any DA or Defense counsel....( you know....my civil govt code law here in TX as in
many others...actually spells out...you are IMMUNE from civil actions from those you shoot or relatives IF shoot justified criminally...but....you can and WILL be sued for anything ) ...but I just know how I feel as to my ammo choice....so when ANYBODY asks me ...I only have to show the box lot code, and politely say..."Sir/Mam...you'll have ask to ask Hornady to send somebody to testify...they have experts for that...."
I simply cant pass speaking my piece on this...as I would on eye protection or sound etc.....( by the way, always use over ear muffs...whether you
insert plugs with or without them...as has been proven the noise levels that can travel through the surrounding ear bones and structures of your
exposed ear with plugs only...is the KIND of damage that is ALWAYS permanent and only shows up later)
i do
and i still havent found an instance of someone getting nailed in court for it.
i am sure it has happened but i cant find one.
I know this is a few weeks old, but I actually do have a case where that happened. The shooting range & gun shop that I go to, and took my CPL class at, at one point came out with it's own brand of reloaded ammunition for multiple calibers. The creators, who were the owner of the shop and his close friend, who I believe also had a stake in the business, researched ballistics and designed a round that would do the most damage in ballistics tests, including gelatin, wood, and "carcass" tests. They did not market the ammo for long, but the friend of the owner started carrying it. Shortly thereafter, he was forced into a situation where he had to use his gun, and he promptly killed his/her attacker. Upon going to court, the lawyer who was defending the "victim's" family asked him/her what he/she carried in their firearm, to which he/she replied that they designed their own ammunition and carried that. The lawyer then spun around and said "So you designed this cartridge to kill my client?!" The friend of the owner promptly lost the case and did some time. I was told this story DURING my CPL training by the instructor, and later it was recanted by the owner personally. The moral of the story is, for the love of God, DO NOT use your own reloads! If you HAVE to use reloads because you want the most effective round, order them from someone else, or buy them from a reloading company. A lot of small reloading companies make high quality defense grade reloads, and it takes all of the blame off of you in case you ever need to actually use your gun, God forbid.
I deal with Police Officers regularly at work. I asked them what the department uses and I use the same thing (Gold-dot). If it ever came down to it "I use the same ammo as the police".
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