Shoot to Disarm vs. Shoot to Kill - Page 4

gunney_m · 12-01-2007, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dookiebutt

Seems easy to me. Take the threat out. I am neither shooting to kill or shooting to disarm.

Same.

billy · 12-01-2007, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HEMI

Everyone that carrys a gun or uses one for personal protection needs to know the law and take a good lethal force defence course. Shoot someone even if you did everything by the book YOU WILL END UP IN COURT YOU MAY BE CHARGED YOU MAY BE SUED BY THE ASSAILANTS FAMILY. This is a fact.I didn't take the poll because Shoot to stop the threat wasn't there, and it is the only choice we as the law abiding have. If the assailant dies that is an unfortunate outcome but it was his choice.
If you answered the poll at all you need to re-evaluate why you have a gun for self defence!!!!

+1

i didnt take the poll because it doesnt have my answer.
remove threat.

gunney_m · 12-01-2007, 08:58 AM

Well just use your 454 billy, that will remove the threat.

billy · 12-01-2007, 10:06 AM

im worried about it going down valley and through those houses.

gunney_m · 12-01-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billy

im worried about it going down valley and through those houses.

I know man I was joking.

gak906 · 12-01-2007, 01:50 PM

Keep in mind that durring a deadly force encounter , you will not be thinking of disarming anyone, it's truly life or death, if it's not you shouldn't be shooting at all. Also the FBI performed a study of 100's of officer envolved shooting, in the part of that study that pertained to accuracy, it was interesting to note, that officer's that routinely scored high ( 95 - 100) on the range( non stress) put only 4 out 10 rounds on target in real life. it makes it even more sobering when you think that in real life (on avg)the shootouts occured with in 10 feet.
There is also a term known as A DEAD MANS 30 SECONDS. Meaning exactly whats it says . Bad guys kills you even though he's dead and walking , he just don't know it yet.Thats why departments have gotten away with teaching just double tap from the 3 yard line , because you revert back to your training in High Stress situation. And officers were getting in gunfights double tapping and would stop firing ( training).And bad guy would kill them.The same as in the wheel gun days , on the range the range master would scream when officers would drop brass on his range , so they would dump empties in their hand then put them in their pocket. Durring some investigations after shootings where officer's were killed they found the dead officer's with empty brass in their pockets.
SO YOU FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAIN. ONLY SHOOT TO STOP THE THREAT, REPEAT STOP THE THREAT , THAT MEANS THE THREAT IS ON THE GROUND AND NOT A THREAT ANYMORE.
Hope that helped
And Dito what billy said Know the law. And tell the cops the truth, you thought he was gonna kill you/someone. Then shut up and get a lawyer.

Paper · 12-01-2007, 10:20 PM

I feel really bad for you guys..

See, I live on the IL/WI state line, and since neither state has concealed carry, we simply don't have any gun crimes.. To make it even safer, my two closest and largest cities have outlawed handguns (Madison, WI and Chicago, IL) and because of that, we can run naked in the streets without worries of being robbed or even taked to in a mean manner..

I feel so bad for you guys in those evil areas..

I gotta move....

risk_3715 · 12-02-2007, 03:40 AM

Madison WI and Chicago safe places?!?!?!? F'n BS! Lived there. You really should move, friend. Run far far away from the tree huggers.

Farmer · 12-02-2007, 04:47 AM

Billy,
Back on page 1 you said shoot to kill then give aid!

Here in Aus, the fact that you give aid could mean that your intentions were not to harm the person as much as you had. So the advise i was given was to shoot at the mass by double tapping until the threat id gone even if that means emptying your arm. Then standing over the threat giver until help arrives.

BTW, this advise was given when i did my security guards firearm course by 2 ex-fbi agents.

Paper · 12-02-2007, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by risk_3715

Madison WI and Chicago safe places?!?!?!? F'n BS! Lived there. You really should move, friend. Run far far away from the tree huggers.

Oh, I don't think you know what you're talking about..
Aren't handguns illegal in New York City, too?? It's perfectly safe there, also.. I thought I read where people walk around with huge quantities of cash in their pockets and a sign on their back saying that they're unarmed and have $4723.35 on them without fear??

Luckily for me, as an IL resident I not only can't protect myself, but if I do I'm commiting a felony and won't be able to legally own a gun again.

Please note EXTREME sarcasm in my posts

ArkansasHunter · 12-02-2007, 06:10 AM

Shoot to disarm or Shoot to kill...Depends on the situation and the mood I'm in...A.H

ezearln · 12-02-2007, 07:42 PM

Sigh

amazed this thread is still alive and kicking!

Troy · 12-02-2007, 08:47 PM

shoot to disarm. it's not your fault your a lousy shot and put 8 into his Xring. you were stressed.

rondog · 12-03-2007, 06:14 PM

Gentlemen - the words you use to an investigating/arresting officer, or use in court, can save you or crucify you. The SAFEST thing to say is you were in fear for your life (or that of another person) and you "shot to STOP THE THREAT". None of this "he asked for it", "it was him or me", "shoot to kill", "shoot to disarm", "citizen's arrest", etc. There was a clear and imminent threat of death or severe bodily harm to yourself or another innocent person, you felt you had to shoot him to stop that threat. Period.

Wording it or saying it any other way is only taking the very real risk that those words can be turned around and used against you. Shooting a bad guy is only the beginning of having to defend yourself. Screw it up by saying the wrong thing, and you might end up wishing he'd shot you instead. "Self-defense" means a helluva lot more than just shooting a bad guy, in my opinion. You have to defend yourself from the whole world after the shooting, and your mouth can be your own worst enemy.

Also, I practice double taps, and I'll put as many bullets in somebody as I feel I have to, to stop the threat. But if at all possible, I'll only do them one at a time! I don't want to be crucified for dumping a whole magazine into some clown, when one or two shots might have stopped him. Alive or dead, as long as he's down, unarmed, and no longer a threat to anyone, then the threat has been stopped.

Just my opinions. I want to go home alive, not go to prison alive.

Troy · 12-04-2007, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondog

I want to go home alive, not go to prison alive.

and there ya go.

CrazyIvan · 12-04-2007, 01:38 PM

The level of force necessary to stop a threat is decided by the person who instigated an assault or attack. My reaction is simply a reflex to their action. My goal is to keep those I care about, the defenseless and myself safe and I will use whatever means necessary to do so within acceptable reason, of course. The perpetrator's injury, dismemberment, ailment, paralization or death is result of their actions. Just like if I were to stick my arm in a wood chipper to try and remove it's teeth while it is still running.

As questioned on the stand, I would answer: "With my knowledge, understanding and ability of self defense, I used the appropriate level of force necessary to hault the dangerous threat posed upon me/mine."

NRAJOE · 12-04-2007, 01:44 PM

Eliminate the testimony...

CrazyIvan · 12-04-2007, 01:49 PM

NRAJ,

You still have the family and civil suits to deal with.

Troy · 12-04-2007, 03:20 PM

eliminate the testimony like Joe says and all ya got is one story to tell. no conflicting testimony to play to the jury.

Rem 742 30-06 · 12-04-2007, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by risk_3715

Madison WI and Chicago safe places?!?!?!? F'n BS! Lived there. You really should move, friend. Run far far away from the tree huggers.

Where exactly did you live I go to school at the University of Wisconsin and have walked in the more questionable neighborhoods at night and felt perfectly safe. Plus when it is cold like it is crime goes down. But despite what paper says we do have gun crimes here just not too many.
Paper where exactly do you live cause I live west of Beloit, WI.

View Poll Results: What would you do?
Shoot to disarm	2	1.87%
Shoot until the threat is eliminated	104	97.20%
Hadn't thought about it	1	0.93%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

12-01-2007, 10:06 AM	#64
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 11,964 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	im worried about it going down valley and through those houses. __________________ just leave britney ALONE! she's going thru a hard time snivel sniff....WAH

12-01-2007, 10:20 PM	#67
Paper One Buwwit Weft Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: IL/WI Border Posts: 986	I feel really bad for you guys.. See, I live on the IL/WI state line, and since neither state has concealed carry, we simply don't have any gun crimes.. To make it even safer, my two closest and largest cities have outlawed handguns (Madison, WI and Chicago, IL) and because of that, we can run naked in the streets without worries of being robbed or even taked to in a mean manner.. I feel so bad for you guys in those evil areas.. I gotta move.... __________________

12-02-2007, 04:47 AM	#69
Farmer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Limbri NSW Au Posts: 296	Billy, Back on page 1 you said shoot to kill then give aid! Here in Aus, the fact that you give aid could mean that your intentions were not to harm the person as much as you had. So the advise i was given was to shoot at the mass by double tapping until the threat id gone even if that means emptying your arm. Then standing over the threat giver until help arrives. BTW, this advise was given when i did my security guards firearm course by 2 ex-fbi agents. __________________ Cheers, Rob

12-02-2007, 07:42 PM	#72
ezearln Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 3,175	Sigh amazed this thread is still alive and kicking! __________________ "You can have my Freedom when I'm done with it!"

12-01-2007, 08:58 AM	#63
gunney_m Banned Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Muskogee,Ok Posts: 1,931	Well just use your 454 billy, that will remove the threat.

12-01-2007, 01:50 PM	#66
gak906 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Georgia Posts: 112	Keep in mind that durring a deadly force encounter , you will not be thinking of disarming anyone, it's truly life or death, if it's not you shouldn't be shooting at all. Also the FBI performed a study of 100's of officer envolved shooting, in the part of that study that pertained to accuracy, it was interesting to note, that officer's that routinely scored high ( 95 - 100) on the range( non stress) put only 4 out 10 rounds on target in real life. it makes it even more sobering when you think that in real life (on avg)the shootouts occured with in 10 feet. There is also a term known as A DEAD MANS 30 SECONDS. Meaning exactly whats it says . Bad guys kills you even though he's dead and walking , he just don't know it yet.Thats why departments have gotten away with teaching just double tap from the 3 yard line , because you revert back to your training in High Stress situation. And officers were getting in gunfights double tapping and would stop firing ( training).And bad guy would kill them.The same as in the wheel gun days , on the range the range master would scream when officers would drop brass on his range , so they would dump empties in their hand then put them in their pocket. Durring some investigations after shootings where officer's were killed they found the dead officer's with empty brass in their pockets. SO YOU FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAIN. ONLY SHOOT TO STOP THE THREAT, REPEAT STOP THE THREAT , THAT MEANS THE THREAT IS ON THE GROUND AND NOT A THREAT ANYMORE. Hope that helped And Dito what billy said Know the law. And tell the cops the truth, you thought he was gonna kill you/someone. Then shut up and get a lawyer.

12-02-2007, 03:40 AM	#68
risk_3715 Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Utah Posts: 70	Madison WI and Chicago safe places?!?!?!? F'n BS! Lived there. You really should move, friend. Run far far away from the tree huggers.

12-02-2007, 06:10 AM	#71
ArkansasHunter Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: South Arkansas Posts: 10,678	Shoot to disarm or Shoot to kill...Depends on the situation and the mood I'm in...A.H

12-02-2007, 08:47 PM	#73
Troy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Manitoba Canada Posts: 2,501 Images: 3	shoot to disarm. it's not your fault your a lousy shot and put 8 into his Xring. you were stressed.

12-03-2007, 06:14 PM	#74
rondog Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 1,324	Gentlemen - the words you use to an investigating/arresting officer, or use in court, can save you or crucify you. The SAFEST thing to say is you were in fear for your life (or that of another person) and you "shot to STOP THE THREAT". None of this "he asked for it", "it was him or me", "shoot to kill", "shoot to disarm", "citizen's arrest", etc. There was a clear and imminent threat of death or severe bodily harm to yourself or another innocent person, you felt you had to shoot him to stop that threat. Period. Wording it or saying it any other way is only taking the very real risk that those words can be turned around and used against you. Shooting a bad guy is only the beginning of having to defend yourself. Screw it up by saying the wrong thing, and you might end up wishing he'd shot you instead. "Self-defense" means a helluva lot more than just shooting a bad guy, in my opinion. You have to defend yourself from the whole world after the shooting, and your mouth can be your own worst enemy. Also, I practice double taps, and I'll put as many bullets in somebody as I feel I have to, to stop the threat. But if at all possible, I'll only do them one at a time! I don't want to be crucified for dumping a whole magazine into some clown, when one or two shots might have stopped him. Alive or dead, as long as he's down, unarmed, and no longer a threat to anyone, then the threat has been stopped. Just my opinions. I want to go home alive, not go to prison alive.

12-04-2007, 01:38 PM	#76
CrazyIvan Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 2,338	The level of force necessary to stop a threat is decided by the person who instigated an assault or attack. My reaction is simply a reflex to their action. My goal is to keep those I care about, the defenseless and myself safe and I will use whatever means necessary to do so within acceptable reason, of course. The perpetrator's injury, dismemberment, ailment, paralization or death is result of their actions. Just like if I were to stick my arm in a wood chipper to try and remove it's teeth while it is still running. As questioned on the stand, I would answer: "With my knowledge, understanding and ability of self defense, I used the appropriate level of force necessary to hault the dangerous threat posed upon me/mine." __________________ "Minimum wage, minimum effort." "Never underestimate the power of stupidity." ~Me Last edited by CrazyIvan; 12-04-2007 at 01:43 PM.

12-04-2007, 01:44 PM	#77
NRAJOE Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Toledo,OH Posts: 19,043 Images: 3	Eliminate the testimony... __________________ U.S. Army 1976-1979 237th Combat Engineers Heilbronn, Germany

12-04-2007, 01:49 PM	#78
CrazyIvan Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 2,338	NRAJ, You still have the family and civil suits to deal with. __________________ "Minimum wage, minimum effort." "Never underestimate the power of stupidity." ~Me

12-04-2007, 03:20 PM	#79
Troy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Manitoba Canada Posts: 2,501 Images: 3	eliminate the testimony like Joe says and all ya got is one story to tell. no conflicting testimony to play to the jury.