Shoot to Disarm vs. Shoot to Kill - Page 6

Erick123 · 12-30-2007, 01:24 AM

I would unload whatever gun i had with me inside of his/her body

Father Time · 12-30-2007, 09:28 PM

Hey... I'll flog the dead dog with you guys

Two to body mass - additional shots for effect are optional.

sammoh · 12-31-2007, 04:56 PM

If someone comes comes into my home with the intent to harm my loved ones or myself, I'd shoot to eliminate the threat.

Double tap to the center of mass and if they don't go down, repeat till they do. If the bugger dies afterwards, his fault for coming after me. When LEO arrives, tell them I shot to eliminate the threat and ask for my lawyer then shut up till my lawyer tells me to speak.

Btw, something I always add when I'm asked this question...

If you're shooting a large bore weapon (.45acp, .44mag etc) or a shotgun and you've emptied your mag into the bg and they keep coming, make a prayer to whatever god you pray to because whatever you're facing isn't earthly.

letsroll · 12-31-2007, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paper

Oh, I don't think you know what you're talking about..
Aren't handguns illegal in New York City, too?? It's perfectly safe there, also.. I thought I read where people walk around with huge quantities of cash in their pockets and a sign on their back saying that they're unarmed and have $4723.35 on them without fear??

Luckily for me, as an IL resident I not only can't protect myself, but if I do I'm committing a felony and won't be able to legally own a gun again.

Please note EXTREME sarcasm in my posts

If you believe that last part then you have no understanding of IL law. It clearly describes that one can defend self, others and property. But it clearly states under what circumstances deadly force may be used. Threat of life and/or bodily harm is part of the circumstance. Not to save your colored tv from a pawn shop.

I have seen some state that in IL you must retreat if possible. That is not true. The retreat language comes in the part where it states that aggressors cannot use the self defense stance, unless the aggressor has clearly indicated his intent to break off the encounter by retreat or withdraw. Pursuing or detaining a perp is not the homeowners business. If the aggressor is not allowed to leave or disengage, then the aggressor may become the one whose life is in danger or facing bodily harm. What that means is if you catch some thief in your garage and you corner him and tell him you are going to shoot his arse , when you should tell him instead to drop the tool box and you are calling the police, and he tries to leave and you do not let him, he could be seen in a court of law as a defender subject to justification to use deadly force. See, you have reversed that role of who is fearful for their life and who is threatening to take life or do great bodily harm. The law does not want the homeowner using deadly force against fleeing perps. Additionally the intent is for those moments when there is a confrontation that some loud mouth instigates and becomes pushy and the person to whom he exhibits force to becomes defensive such as a handful of Glock, and the loud mouth backs down but now the person with the handful of glock becomes the aggressor and start threatening to blow his arse away. Again the role has reversed as well as the deadly force to protect issue.

BTW there is a provision in the same statutes that state an aggressor as defined in said statues nor anyone of their behalf ( such as surviving family) cannot bring claim liability as a result of their aggression. So if they are criminal and get hurt while threatening the life of someone, too bad!
refer here for actual text for self defense against person:
Illinois General Assembly - Illinois Compiled Statutes
and for self defense against dwelling:
Illinois General Assembly - Illinois Compiled Statutes

Cyrano · 01-07-2008, 03:32 PM

If you are shooting to eliminate the threat, don't forget the Jeff Cooper Axiom:

Two in the chest and one in the head
Always leaves the subject dead.

The Colonel developed this rule in response to the bad guys taking to wearing body armor. Even if they are wearing body armor, two shots to the center of mass is going to knock the wind out of the perp long enough for you to plant one right between the eyes and settle his hash that way. And if he's not wearing body armor, the two to the center of mass probably will have killed him, and the one to the head will make sure of it.

The technique does need to be practiced. I've seen it performed on the Thunder Ranch range on Guns & Ammo TV by Grits Gresham at paper targets. It's not bang-bang-bang; it's more bang-bang (half a beat) bang. As Cooper explained it, getting the two body mass shots off fast will give you a fraction of a second more to place an aimed shot to the head. The Cooper Axiom may save your hide if you ever happen to find you're a P.G. Wodehouse hero dropped into a Don Pendleton situation.

GlockMeister · 01-07-2008, 04:17 PM

Well now, what a question. You shoot to disarm, they basically live to sue your a$$ and you can basically get charged with aggravated assault, assault and battery, assault with intent to kill or do bodily harm, assault and battery with a deadly weapon and even attempted murder just to name a few. The advantage is given to whom calls 911 first. Just be sure to tell them you are the victim and you are armed, what you are wearing so they know who to look for etc...

Ever watch Personal Defense TV? They have a guy who is a police officer give training techniques and advice who's name is Massad Ayoob who gave the five main tips to do after you've been involved in a shooting. Forgot what they are at the moment. Wrote them down and even forgot for the moment where i put it.

Personally I'd shoot to kill. I say that anyhow, when it got right down to it, not sure what I'd do. It may be easier to do if you've already done it and it may even sound easier said then done. But get right down to it, not sure if I could take a life. They had a gun,I saw it, they went to use it, I hope I have the rocks to defend myself and if I do pull the trigger, may as well make it permanent. Like my motto says under my name anyhow...

Good question. One of those I ask before I hit submit and will ask many times over after and if I do/did hit submit; Is/Was this a question i really should have answered and put my name to??? lmao

Once it's on paper, it's harder to say no, i never said that... lmfao

G_Meister

mkusanagi · 01-19-2008, 11:04 PM

When things go bad they tend to go bad REALLY QUICKLY, producing a huge adrenaline shock that usually leaves no time for thought.

You train to hit the big center mass because when IT is hitting the fan, there's usually neither the time nor capacity to make a judgment call or take careful aim; you have to depend on the acquired instinctive reactions that training instills to save your bacon, because if you have to think about what you're going to do, bang! You're dead.

I think shooting to "wing 'em" is something for Hollywood.

View Poll Results: What would you do?
Shoot to disarm	2	1.87%
Shoot until the threat is eliminated	104	97.20%
Hadn't thought about it	1	0.93%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

12-30-2007, 09:28 PM	#102
Father Time Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 374 Images: 2	Hey... I'll flog the dead dog with you guys Two to body mass - additional shots for effect are optional. __________________ You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.

12-31-2007, 04:56 PM	#103
sammoh Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 42	If someone comes comes into my home with the intent to harm my loved ones or myself, I'd shoot to eliminate the threat. Double tap to the center of mass and if they don't go down, repeat till they do. If the bugger dies afterwards, his fault for coming after me. When LEO arrives, tell them I shot to eliminate the threat and ask for my lawyer then shut up till my lawyer tells me to speak. Btw, something I always add when I'm asked this question... If you're shooting a large bore weapon (.45acp, .44mag etc) or a shotgun and you've emptied your mag into the bg and they keep coming, make a prayer to whatever god you pray to because whatever you're facing isn't earthly. Last edited by sammoh; 12-31-2007 at 04:59 PM.

01-07-2008, 03:32 PM	#105
Cyrano Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: New York Posts: 2,362	Remember the Jeff Cooper Axiom If you are shooting to eliminate the threat, don't forget the Jeff Cooper Axiom: Two in the chest and one in the head Always leaves the subject dead. The Colonel developed this rule in response to the bad guys taking to wearing body armor. Even if they are wearing body armor, two shots to the center of mass is going to knock the wind out of the perp long enough for you to plant one right between the eyes and settle his hash that way. And if he's not wearing body armor, the two to the center of mass probably will have killed him, and the one to the head will make sure of it. The technique does need to be practiced. I've seen it performed on the Thunder Ranch range on Guns & Ammo TV by Grits Gresham at paper targets. It's not bang-bang-bang; it's more bang-bang (half a beat) bang. As Cooper explained it, getting the two body mass shots off fast will give you a fraction of a second more to place an aimed shot to the head. The Cooper Axiom may save your hide if you ever happen to find you're a P.G. Wodehouse hero dropped into a Don Pendleton situation.

01-07-2008, 04:17 PM	#106
GlockMeister Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 5,504	Well now, what a question. You shoot to disarm, they basically live to sue your a$$ and you can basically get charged with aggravated assault, assault and battery, assault with intent to kill or do bodily harm, assault and battery with a deadly weapon and even attempted murder just to name a few. The advantage is given to whom calls 911 first. Just be sure to tell them you are the victim and you are armed, what you are wearing so they know who to look for etc... Ever watch Personal Defense TV? They have a guy who is a police officer give training techniques and advice who's name is Massad Ayoob who gave the five main tips to do after you've been involved in a shooting. Forgot what they are at the moment. Wrote them down and even forgot for the moment where i put it. Personally I'd shoot to kill. I say that anyhow, when it got right down to it, not sure what I'd do. It may be easier to do if you've already done it and it may even sound easier said then done. But get right down to it, not sure if I could take a life. They had a gun,I saw it, they went to use it, I hope I have the rocks to defend myself and if I do pull the trigger, may as well make it permanent. Like my motto says under my name anyhow... Good question. One of those I ask before I hit submit and will ask many times over after and if I do/did hit submit; Is/Was this a question i really should have answered and put my name to??? lmao Once it's on paper, it's harder to say no, i never said that... lmfao G_Meister __________________ I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6!

12-30-2007, 01:24 AM	#101
Erick123 Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 52	I would unload whatever gun i had with me inside of his/her body

01-19-2008, 11:04 PM	#107
mkusanagi Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 10	When things go bad they tend to go bad REALLY QUICKLY, producing a huge adrenaline shock that usually leaves no time for thought. You train to hit the big center mass because when IT is hitting the fan, there's usually neither the time nor capacity to make a judgment call or take careful aim; you have to depend on the acquired instinctive reactions that training instills to save your bacon, because if you have to think about what you're going to do, bang! You're dead. I think shooting to "wing 'em" is something for Hollywood.