Overheard at the range

[tlarkin]

Originally Posted by The_Patriot

It's all about the perceived threat.

That was my point, but I think you said it better. It is better to get tried by 12 than carried by six as they say.

The problem is, that you need to follow your states laws for self defense or you can end up in some trouble.

Would someone really be a threat at 15 yards away just yelling at you? There is a fine line that once you cross you can and will be held responsible for your actions. Which, is why most people who legally conceal and carry don't ever get into situations like this. Mainly, because they are law abiding citizens for the most part, or at least in my perception.

Also, where you are at is a huge factor. If on private property you better not be tress passing, and if in public you better not be breaking any gun free zone laws, so on and so forth.

Also, if you ever pull your weapon you better be ready to use it.

[samuel]

Update on self defence with tape and cell phone.Decided on 20' tape and guess 1'.It worked well but the yape kept doubling over and got to where it wouldnt roll up so I went out and found a limb that covered part of the distance but when I taped it to the measure it covered the #,s so I couldnt tell exactly what I had.That was a $12.95 tape so I decided to try one of those super duty 25ft tapes.It kept bending so I found if I laid on the floor I could run it out to 21' if I didnt run into anything.While lying on the floor makes self defence a little awkward,it is the best to get an accurate reading on the tape.Now as to the cell phone.After I learned to not try to run the tape out on the phone and dial the tape,I found that it was easy to preprogram 911 and hit redial.So I practiced this several times until the sheriff,s dept told me they were going to arrest me.I guess they must be anti,s because they dont want to help me practice.Anyway I took the batteries out and practiced without their help.I had one little mishap.I had to go to the bathroom big time and had the cell phone in my back pocket.while dropping my drawers the phone fell in the stool.It doesnt seem to work right anymore.Now I must find out if I can use a firearm while holding a tape in one hand and a phone in the other.If I cant use the gun At least I will get the distance right and be the first to dial 911.That is when I get a phone that works.Practice,practice,practice. sam.

[billy]

once you master combat handgun techniques on the toidy.
you are unstoppable!

you have to train to wipe with the left hand and squeeze slowly with the right.
DO NOT get them confused under stress!
you have to keep calm and cool sam.

dont get caught with your pants down indeed.....BAH!

[samuel]

Originally Posted by billy

once you master combat handgun techniques on the toidy.
you are unstoppable!

you have to train to wipe with the left hand and squeeze slowly with the right.
DO NOT get them confused under stress!
you have to keep calm and cool sam.

dont get caught with your pants down indeed.....BAH!

Could you explain this wipe and squeeze manuver a little more clearly?I want to get this self defence down right.What I wonder is,do you wipe the tape and squeeze the phone or vica versa?I really cant understand squeezing the tape as I use a pull motion to get it out.Wiping it might be necessary if I drop it in the stool.I can understand wiping and squeezing the phone after dropping it to get it dry and wipe some of the stickey,stinkey stuff off but I have been through that phase of the training and dont care to do it again.How long will this wipe and squeeze training take and when do I get to practice with a firearm.I believe,if I am going to train in the bathroom I will use a handgun as my bathroom is small and I doubt that my wife will let me practice even the wipe and squeeze manuver in her big bathroom.I am just dying to get to the firearm phase!Do you practice with live fire?After I get to be proficient at this self defence low long do I have to wait for an attack to see if I can do it right?I am so excited and cant wait. sam.

[mym1a]

Originally Posted by Gordo1

OK, since hearing that conversation and relaying it here, I have purchased a laser tape marked for 7 yards, a linear tape just in case the laser fails, a distance sensitive light that will strobe when the assailant crosses the 7 yard line, safeties for each of my HD pistols that will not fire unless the strobe lights and only if the assailant has bad breath (oh yes, I also purchased a breathalizer good for 21 yars plus, knowinfg most asialants will likely have been drinking) and a Rodesian Razor Back. Now I feel safe.

lol make sure you call time out first lol

[The_Patriot]

Originally Posted by ezearln

LMSAO Patriot that was without doubt a different way of putting accross your point Hutu spear chuckers Oh good Lord!

Glad you liked it. My imagination sometimes strays...far.

[samuel]

TP: you had to go high tech and I am still having trouble with the tape and phone!I will never get to the firearm phase!!! sam.

[ART338WM]

I will give you one that actually happened in Chicago less than a block a way from Sox Park. A man his wife and two children were walking from a remote pay to park lot when they noticed a young black male comming towards them with a large wooden table leg. The assilent proceeded to beat the father to death, and beat the one son so badly as he suffered permenent brain dammage.

The worst part is not the fact IL has no right to CC or while in cook co. even basic self defence, no the real make you puke fact is the SOB who did the crime was lator found not guilty by reason of insanity! When arrested he was heard saying he was having a bad day.

What i found utterly amaizing is the fact that it would apere the father did nothing to prevent the atack. I go to Sox Park 3-4x a year and even though they do a basic search of you, I always pack at least a beyond scarry shaving sharp folding knife, an so far the cops have never found it on me. That may change if they ever start using metal detectors. I usually carry it in my breast pocket and hold my 2yr old over it while they search my wifes perse and diaper bag. I figure unless Im facing a gun I can sacrifice a arm while I get in and use the knife. The knife BTW blade is only 2.5" long, but you can litterally shave with it. I would not stab with it only slash, perferably the fore head just above the eyes, or accross the face from eye soccet accross the nose and over cheek. Not a fatal wound but one garunteed to get a wood be assilents mind off you.
Im not trying to sound like rambo here, but if i saw someone comming towards me and my family with a bed post, I would tell the wife and kids to run and i would do my best to elliminate the threat, and trust me when I say I have a fair amount of ecperience in doing that, especially unarmed. At any rate I would never, never allow a obvious threat like the one I have described ever get any where near me or my family befor I instantly took action against it.

[Powderman]

Don't shoot unless they're 7 yards or closer? I'm sorry, but that instructor has chairborne ranger written all over.

The general rule is that you have to be in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm.

And, if some yahoo thinks that over 7 yards means that you are out of danger, they need to go back to playing counterstrike.

If someone should question this, let's go to the range. I guarantee that I will use a handgun and put every round within a 5 inch circle at 50 YARDS. Yes, I said yards, not feet. I wonder if that jackleg feels that bullets lose killing power at that distance, too?

The key word here is imminent. You had better believe that if someone is within 50 yards, and they have a firearm and mean to do you harm, you are in SERIOUS trouble.

[ezearln]

The question remains to many as to just WHAT IS imminent? The answer to that is not always as clear cut as some armchair gunslinger wannabe's seem to make out or would have others believe. Many states employ a "Reasonableness" test to decide if deadly force was actually necessary, many police deparments and academies use a decision flow chart or ladder to train cadets when they need to use deadly force. Most states also apply a concept of law called "Disparity of Force" to decide, if other things in the situation are unequal.

The reasonableness test: Would another person of reasonable intelligence and understanding, under the same circumstances. Make the same decision to use deadly force? You may find this one going out the window if you happen to have extensive military or police combat training.

The Discision Making Process: Regardless of the terminology used every police department/academy, military or civilian as well as any self defense instructor that is fully trained/experienced. Teaches one form of decision making flow chart /laddar or another which gives the student guidence when deciding whether or not to use deadly force.

The one I taught used the following terminology and was taught as a flow chart. Some here might find it useful.

Intent: This may be established in a variety of ways such as by a verbal declaration ie: "I'm going to kill you!", by display ie: An armed (or in somecases unarmed) individual charging or approaching you in a threatening manner, or by two or more persons enicirciling you or denying you an escape route.

Ability: Does the person have the ability (means) to cause you or another great bodily harm or death? This sometimes calls into play the concept of Disparity of Force. Is the person armed? If so with what? Does the person reasonably appear able to use the weapon? Is there more than ONE assailant? What are the person(s) physical and sometimes emotional characteristics that are observable? What are the victims?
ie: an 180-200lb man with a machete raised above his head is charging towards you screaming DIE!!!
You've pretty much sastified Intent and Ability in that case, however another murkier example is this: You are either a 98lb coed, or a disabled person unable to walk, elderly or infirm, or a male of very slight build or strength, or a child (don't laugh it's happened). The following happens: You're confronted by one (or more) very large apparently fit men, the men appear excited or agitated, they begin making ugly and threatening comments, they do NOT appear armed in any way however they begin to close with you... What is your decision? Have they satisfied Intent and Ability? Harder to decide isn't it? In my opinion yes, but remember there is one last thing to consider...

Opportunity: Does the person have the apparent opportunity to actually complete their attack and actually cause your death or serious bodily injury? ie: A person threatens to cut your heart out and eat it! He is 7 yards away grasping a large apparently bloody fixed bladed knife, there is a substantial chain link fence between you 12' tall topped with concertina wire. You've satisfied Intent and Ability but your adversary lacks Opportunity so deadly force would NOT be acceptable. However put that same man behind that same fence with a pistol and you have all three Intent, Ability and Opportunity.
These decisions all happen in a fraction of a second you don't require a check off sheet, and while most shootings do indeed occur at approximately 7 yards that doesn't mean that past that distance the threat is no longer valid!

[DrBoomBoom]

From everything I've read and was taught, Ezearlin's dead on the money. In Tennessee, it's exactly that: intent, ability, opportunity.

That's the law, but the problem isn't the law, it's the lawyers. DA's and civil lawyers have learned that judges and juries can be convinced that a distance like 20 or 30 feet is far enough away to negate opportunity. So, I intend to defend myself as I see fit, within the law to the best of my ability, and would find a lawyer who has been successful in defending clients against this prosecutorial tactic.

[Mike82]

I'm just glad evryone here is a gun addict, that way I feel secure evryone will sleep safely at night, and the "home defense law" has made it now that anyone that steps into your home, garage, workshop, any building you pay taxes on, is a clean target, and you don't have to feel in danger before pulling the trigger. Oxford office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms here informed me simply that it's "shoot to kill". I prolly shouldn't feel overjoyed about this law, except that it's been so long since i've been in combat, and due to brain dmg from an IED, my reasoning is a lil off.

Be safe guys, and have a good year!!!

PS. If you can do this to an intruder with an empty case you're already too late. Unless you somehow hit em in the eye

.

[Wingwiper]

MY desire to stay alive would outweigh my desire to follow the law.

In my state you have a legal Right to shoot to kill to protect life or property, the Equal force is gone. It was challenged several years back and the fellow who shot and killed a man, in the dark who was breaking into his garage, won his case.
We do not have a High Violent Crime rate here and the crime rate we have usually involves idiot Flatlanders who come here thinking we are easy targets.
Ezearln has said it well and for the guy who defends his family, he must defend himself after in court. Too bad. Vermont saw it a bit different and they also looked at Police reaction time and what could happen in that time. Our Equal Force Laws are gone and now we have the Right to shoot to kill to protect life or property. Everyone thought Vermonters would go crazy when that law was passed some 20 years ago, we didn't. we were already crazy.

[neophyte]

Somehow this will fit in.?
Sat. a week ago I sat in [free to listen] while my shooting partner was doing the class work and then off to shooting to qualify for CCW.
My son and I originally went together and now was another chance for a 'refresher'. WOW.
What a difference; totally different atmosphere different grouping of people.
With my son and myself; mostly computer types, mail, engineers, and corporate types.

At the Pro Bass, mostly if not all YOUNG, college to soon to graduates, with a couple of 'drug addict' types [I saw them} idiots.

We happened to have a good to better "explainer" to the law. She not only told but showed us where in the "law" our rights. [be very careful] Ambiguous, with all the ambiguities that go along with the "LAW" covering its own ass. Called it 'gray matter'; [I have enough 'gray matter'].

Quite enlightened and reinforced my understandings.

An example was given. [she picked on me] Middle of the night, someone breaks into your house and attack you house pet.

My dog; name is Baby; Labrador retriever with severe hip dysplasia. Lap dog, truck dog, love dog, bed dog, kisses as sweet as wine.

Back to example:
I hear this ruckus; jump outa bed, grab firearm, go into kitchen, see bad guy with a knife repeatedly stabbing 'Baby'

Now what would you do?

I'd shoot the SOB; grab a ball bat and set in to do as much damage as inhumanly possible, take said knife and proceed to do some "carving"

Folks in NC; be dang sure before you pull the trigger.

By Law; you have no 'right' to shoot, kill, maim, destroy "anyone" for damaging or stealing your "PROPERTY"

[Alleydude]

Sounds like Michigan has the right idea. Had to look it up to find out:

2005 House Bill 5143 (Repeal “duty to retreat” in self defense )

The only good thing Granholm ever did.

[Windwalker]

Well, I've had my laugh to start the day. Anyone with a flaming spear could be considered a threat.lol I should hope so. There is also some good information in this post.. so think about it.

[ezearln]

DrBoomBoom makes a valid point when it comes to prosecutors (the overzealous ones at any rate) and civil trail lawyers (the ones trying you for a wrongful death suit on behalf of the family of the SOB you shot defending yourself). It isn't hard for a glib, authoratative lawyer to make the average citizen serving on a jury believe that 20 or 30 feet is a safe distance from an assailant. After all he is too far away to actually place his hands on you right?

IMHE the best way to defend yourself after having to use deadly force, is to know as much as you possibly can before you have to use it. Not just as that pertains simply to the law but also knowing what you should and shouldn't be doing to make yourself as unattractive a target to criminals as possible. Criminals by and large are cowardly opportunistic predators, they prefer weak or weak appearing victims, inattentive, hesitant, meek is the blood in the water that draws these vermin.
Simply my experience, as well as being resolved to use the minimum amount of force necessary to defend myself and my family. Thankfully Texas has revised much of it's self defense laws, making once somewhat muddy waters much clearer. In any event things to remember regardless of where you find yourself or what the circumstance when you are compelled to use deadly force there are things that are a given:

Do not regardless of what you may have heard or been told under any circumstance change the scene. If you were justified in your use of deadly force it really doesn't matter where or how the body falls or lays!

Always notify the authorities as soon as humanly possible after an incident, and request medical assistance first for your assailant and any others requiring it.

Remain calm and relate only the minimum basic facts to justify your actions, contact your attorney as soon as possible.

[samuel]

Thats a great post Ezearln! lots of good info. sam.

[Sport717]

Good men who do nothing end up DEAD!!. If you are being threatened with a weapon such as a gun, 7 yards do not apply. If shots have been fired you are within legal right to return fire or protect your self as you see fit.

[Shotbreak]

This is a gross oversimplification at best. First off, if any assaultive situation there are three steps in a reflexive response. #1 it takes the brain .125 seconds to identify the threat level whether it is a club at 25 yards or a rifle muzzle dimpling your belly fat. #2. it takes .125 seconds for the brain to fire the receptors in the muscle groups to respond to the threat. #3 it takes .2 seconds for the muscle groups to affect and complete the APPROPIATE response. A total of .45 seconds for a person well trained in defensive combat handgun techniques. A Phillipino Knife fighter at 7 yards can present the knife, span the distance and severely cut you at least 4 times in .4 seconds. Have you ever seen a Bola Knife? YOU LOSE. I have seen this demonstrated, and incorporated it in my training programs.
I am a Master Firearms Instructor/Police Sgt. ret. with over 30 years of training experience, and survivor of several gunfights as well as a Distinguished Master Pistol Competitor recognized by Act of Congress of the US. Advice: sufficient training will tell you when and how to shoot, and be the only testator at the coroners inquest. Selecting trainers is difficult when you are learning. I have published guidelines to help students receive only the best training.

Sgt. J.R. Friend ret.
Grand Rapids, MI Police Dept.

This is a gross oversimplification at best. First off, if any assaultive situation there are three steps in a reflexive response. #1 it takes the brain .125 seconds to identify the threat level whether it is a club at 25 yards or a rifle muzzle dimpling your belly fat. #2. it takes .125 seconds for the brain to fire the receptors in the muscle groups to respond to the threat. #3 it takes .2 seconds for the muscle groups to affect and complete the APPROPIATE response. A total of .45 seconds for a person well trained in defensive combat handgun techniques. A Phillipino Knife fighter at 7 yards can present the knife, span the distance and severely cut you at least 4 times in .4 seconds. Have you ever seen a Bola Knife? YOU LOSE. I have seen this demonstrated, and incorporated it in my training programs.
I am a Master Firearms Instructor/Police Sgt. ret. with over 30 years of training experience, and survivor of several gunfights as well as a Distinguished Master Pistol Competitor recognized by Act of Congress of the US. Advice: sufficient training will tell you when and how to shoot, and be the only testator at the coroners inquest. Selecting trainers is difficult when you are learning. I have published guidelines to help students receive only the best training.

Sgt. J.R. Friend ret.
Grand Rapids, MI Police Dept.