[FyreTyger]

See, I don't know. Yes there is a teacher in every classroom, but how many of them would carry? If they're teaching 30 students, and they choose to carry, they're protecting those 30 students. But what about the class of 30 who's teacher decides not to carry? What are they to do? If they were going to go this route, I think they should make an application process for at least a *few* students to be able to carry as well. It makes it a very bad balance, people per gun, in the classrooms. I would rather have a teacher and two students armed, than just an 80 year old man who refuses to retire.

[AKHunter]

Quote:      

To start out I think maybe they should just let the teachers/professors carry. See how that works out first before arming the entire student body. __________________ You only live once, so make sure you shoot twice.

That would make them the first target and so, the nut job murderer would eliminate first known resistance before said teacher has a chance to react.

Having anyone who chooses to do so carry CCW would take that advatage away from said nut job. I do think however, that teachers/professors should be allowed to carry just like anyone else.

[TXplt]

CCW holders are a very responsible lot. AD's/ND's are extremely low (being as safe or safer than LEO's), and the revocation rate for all causes (mostly administrative infractions) in most states is well less than 1%. Here's a link with some more data if you're interested (you can scroll to the bottom and look thru the fact sheets which are selectable). +1 to what AK and Windwalker have already posted.

NRA-ILA :: Fact Sheets


As long as you're prepared to accept the responsibility (which shouldn't be understated--if you're not prepared to use your weapon defensively than you probably shouldn't be carrying--only you can make this call) the benefits of CCW under all conceivable conditions very much outweighs the risks or "costs." I don't mean to sound sexist, but as a woman even more so -- Like it or not you face a greater risk of preditors--a handgun can be an excellent tool to aid in your self defense and level the playing field against those who would do you harm. Self-defense is an inherent right and responsibility. It would be great if we could think our way out of situations, but there are evil preditors in this world who would hurt and kill others, and force is sometimes your only option. No different than an animal set on harming you. Don't accept the drivel that "your gun is likely to be used against you" or "you're more likely to be involved in an accident" -- as long as you put in the time and effort and training (and ALWAYS practice safe gun handling) this is simply not true. Respectfully, the "con" side of TL's post is false, but you can look that up and decide this for youself--they're simply unsubstantiated assertions.

I'd recommend you CCW everywhere, all the time that you can within state and federal legal (not necessarily "university policy") constraints. In several states, the "no weapons" or "ghostbuster" weapons signs do NOT carry any legal weight (in TX the signs have to have very specific wording). You'll need to learn the laws for the states you can carry in as to where you can and can't carry as well.

Bottom line: You are responsible for protecting you (and your loved ones).

[ander254]

In SC, it people are now allowed to own pistols at 18 but federal law preempts that by not allowing dealers to sell to them until 21. I also think SC requires you to be 21 to get a CCW. So with that, typically only seniors and graduate students at the universities will be allow to carry concealed. This greatly limits how many "idiots" there will be carrying. they don't call it a place for higher lernin' for nuthin. Most of the fools will fail out somewhere in the process. I for one about did my freshman year, but now im in law school, go figure. I understand that you don't want to be around 1000's of gun toting fools but in reality you wouldn't. And besides (kinda off topic) how many robberies happen at gun shows? Not many. And on the note about costs... I don't think many college students will want to shell out the $200 to jump through the hoops to get a CCW. They'd rather spend it on beer.

[FyreTyger]

Quote:       Originally Posted by ander254

In SC, it people are now allowed to own pistols at 18 but federal law preempts that by not allowing dealers to sell to them until 21. I also think SC requires you to be 21 to get a CCW. So with that, typically only seniors and graduate students at the universities will be allow to carry concealed. This greatly limits how many "idiots" there will be carrying. they don't call it a place for higher lernin' for nuthin. Most of the fools will fail out somewhere in the process. I for one about did my freshman year, but now im in law school, go figure. I understand that you don't want to be around 1000's of gun toting fools but in reality you wouldn't. And besides (kinda off topic) how many robberies happen at gun shows? Not many. And on the note about costs... I don't think many college students will want to shell out the $200 to jump through the hoops to get a CCW. They'd rather spend it on beer.

That is precisely my point. I would say 75-90 percent of the student body wouldn't be legal to carry, or would be too busy buying other things to spend the money on concealed carry.

On my campus, there are approximately 10, I think, rapes/sexual assaults per year. If you're a lone female student, like myself, and have to walk across campus after dark to get to your car, like I do, I would personally like to carry something with a little more punch than just my mace. If someone is coming at me with a knife, or gun, or some other weapon, I don't want them to get close enough for me to mace them. My mace has a max range of 12 feet, and at that point, the sheer shock of getting maced could get me stabbed or shot. Collateral damage to buildings be damned, I'll shoot to keep myself from harm. I'm not advocating carrying gargantuan caliber CCW's here, I know some people do it, but a .22 or 9mm can be just as effective, and just as deadly as a .40 or .45 if used effectively and with experience. I have no intention of wantonly killing people, but I do believe that I should have the right to carry a little snub nosed revolver on my hip to class for my own safety. Concealed or not, I still think we should be allowed to carry them on my campus.

(I tend to not trust people in this area, can anyone tell?)

[tonystewartfan]

Quote:       Originally Posted by FyreTyger

That is precisely my point. I would say 75-90 percent of the student body wouldn't be legal to carry, or would be too busy buying other things to spend the money on concealed carry. On my campus, there are approximately 10, I think, rapes/sexual assaults per year. If you're a lone female student, like myself, and have to walk across campus after dark to get to your car, like I do, I would personally like to carry something with a little more punch than just my mace. If someone is coming at me with a knife, or gun, or some other weapon, I don't want them to get close enough for me to mace them. My mace has a max range of 12 feet, and at that point, the sheer shock of getting maced could get me stabbed or shot. Collateral damage to buildings be damned, I'll shoot to keep myself from harm. I'm not advocating carrying gargantuan caliber CCW's here, I know some people do it, but a .22 or 9mm can be just as effective, and just as deadly as a .40 or .45 if used effectively and with experience. I have no intention of wantonly killing people, but I do believe that I should have the right to carry a little snub nosed revolver on my hip to class for my own safety. Concealed or not, I still think we should be allowed to carry them on my campus. (I tend to not trust people in this area, can anyone tell?)

Join the NRA. .38 snubnose should do it.

[neophyte]

Fyre Tyger: Ma'am, welcome back to the thought. Safety cannot be over-simplified. Redundant will be more, of these types of answers. My concern for you, them and those isn't ?redundant? We that care, care about all.

Placing 'teachers' 'coaches' 'police' 'moms' 'dads' 'pastors' 'day-care' in the lime-light as preserving my behind aint gonna work. They cannot be with me every moment, nor do I want this. Giving me the opportunity to experience life and life's cycles through my eyes. [ma'am I'm old enough to be older than your parents] qualified; yet that doesn't change a thing. Freedom without, being unable to do something, in that moment of danger, would and has pissed me off.

How would you; Pick the Person who Would qualify carrying a firearm for defenses purposes on campus.
How would you choose this individual over another

I spend some time on Campus's and enjoy the mess outa watching, Some need a seeing eye dog after lunch, some are just to funny, some I couldn't imagine covering my butt. Am I judgmental? Am I ignorant? Am I concerned.
Answers are tough, questions sometimes not tuff enough.

Follow up with your thinking and thoughts. I fragmented this "bit'' on purpose

[FyreTyger]

I agree with you on your first point. Just like I said it's too much to ask a teensy weensy percentage of people, teachers, coaches, police, etc, protecting all of us. We have lives to live, and I don't want a baby sitter either. that's why I want to carry myself.

How would you pick the person? Hmm... I think the University should have an application process so they themselves know who's carrying and numbers of people carrying, guns they carry, the serials, etc. Not necessarily a "proving" type application, but a legally covering their butt application. In case something were to happen, you know? And they could control the numbers of people allowed to carry on campus through that setup.

I don't think you're ignorant or judgmental. There are dozens of people on campus I don't trust as far as I can spit. I don't blame you. It is fun to people watch on campus.

[Girlgun]

I think FryeTyger has the right of it. Good laws that allow gunowners w/ proper training to carry concealed makes sense. I just do not understand how they can say those same folks cannot carry on campus?

[shootergirl]

fyretyger, my campus security during my undergrad schooling was pretty useless, too. while there is truth to the safety in numbers thing, if someone really wanted to hurt me, a scrawny philosophy major on a bicycle wasn't going to stop him.
i agree that an armed society is a polite society. and a safer one overall.
vet school is in a much seedier part of town and i hope that for my own safety i won't have to be on campus after dark.

[tlarkin]

Quote:       Originally Posted by shootergirl

fyretyger, my campus security during my undergrad schooling was pretty useless, too. while there is truth to the safety in numbers thing, if someone really wanted to hurt me, a scrawny philosophy major on a bicycle wasn't going to stop him. i agree that an armed society is a polite society. and a safer one overall. vet school is in a much seedier part of town and i hope that for my own safety i won't have to be on campus after dark.

I hate to keep playing devil's advocate here, but I would just like to point out that an armed society in certain societies works. An example where it doesn't work is Israel. Everyone packs heat and there are all kinds of violent problems every day there. It obviously doesn't make an impact. The polar opposite of that would be Switzerland, where everyone is required by the government to keep a fully automatic assault rifle (typically SIG issued) in their home. They are required to serve in the Military from 18 to 20 (or something along those lines) and then they are required to keep their service gun afterwards in case their country ever got invaded. They have a fraction, and I mean a huge difference, of gun related violence than we do in the USA.

We aren't a very peaceful society in the USA. I don't think we would be more polite if we were all armed, I just think all that would do is get more people killed, and also at the same time allow people to defend them self. Obviously, most people who carry legal are probably not going to use it unless in self defense, however, all those that carry illegally, who knows what they might do. For all you know, people could be carrying illegally in your school right now, or at your work, or in public where you shop.

Having more guns does not always equal more peace. Then again, gun control does not always equal peace either. In Japan, gun control actually works, again they are a different society than us.

I think it is extremely hard to say the impact on our society would be if everyone was issued a gun period, or if half the people carried, or if no one had guns at all. We are a dynamic nation, with many problems, many different interlace cultural influences, and everyone is out for them self.

[Girlgun]

wow, I never knew that about switzerland. With Israel, of course, I assume the majority of the violence is related to Palestinian rebellion, so that is a difficult example to use as a comparison. I also think the overall crime rate there is still lower than here. But in general, you make a very good point about e/ society being different. I just feel like we have a skewed sense of reality here, expecting the government to babysit us and keep us safe while not taking enough responsibility for ourselves: not just safety wise, but in all areas. Interesting that gun ownership and military duty are regarded as responsibilities in Switzerland... interesting!

[TXplt]

Quote:       Originally Posted by shootergirl

fyretyger, my campus security during my undergrad schooling was pretty useless, too. while there is truth to the safety in numbers thing, if someone really wanted to hurt me, a scrawny philosophy major on a bicycle wasn't going to stop him. i agree that an armed society is a polite society. and a safer one overall. vet school is in a much seedier part of town and i hope that for my own safety i won't have to be on campus after dark.

Very well said. Armed society is not only more polite, but in general (and very much in America's case) safer.

Y'all be careful making cross cultural analysis; in general these aren't valid. They only work when the cultural values between the countries beeing looked at are very similar. Gun control (either strong or none) would have little effect on the crime rate in Japan--although it'd be wholly inappropriate for another country to monkey with their laws (kinda like the UN sometimes tries to do to ours ?). Speaking with some understanding of their culural values.

I'd humbly recommend y'all CCW whenever legally possible; all the time. If this violates "university policy", well, only you can make that risk assessment call.

Take care.

[tlarkin]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Girlgun

wow, I never knew that about switzerland. With Israel, of course, I assume the majority of the violence is related to Palestinian rebellion, so that is a difficult example to use as a comparison. I also think the overall crime rate there is still lower than here. But in general, you make a very good point about e/ society being different. I just feel like we have a skewed sense of reality here, expecting the government to babysit us and keep us safe while not taking enough responsibility for ourselves: not just safety wise, but in all areas. Interesting that gun ownership and military duty are regarded as responsibilities in Switzerland... interesting!

Yeah, I am all for self defense and am all for people who are responsible to carry guns. I think if you get caught carrying your gun while drastically intoxicated you should have your CCW taken away. At the same time there is a definite reason that the Darwin Awards exist, people are dumb.

Switzerland is a bit more socialist than us, and they have a different society and culture all together. They are raised with the notion that guns are there for the sole purpose of defending their country. They always maintain neutral status during any war. Their economy has always been stable, they have free health care, free higher education (university level), they are all required to do their service in the Military, they are the third largest exporter world wide of music (they have arts in their culture). When you look at them and know that every citizen is packing a full automatic weapon in their home, and then compare that to their violent crimes, it is drops of water in the ocean compared to our rate of violent crimes.

I think that if we armed America it would make positive and negative changes depending on the community you lived in, since America is a very dynamic country.

As for carrying in school, if they had a way to qualify people and they registered with the campus I think it would work out OK. Just one accident would be a huge liability though, and I think it would ultimately come down to how the legal department would want to handle it.

[FyreTyger]

Ok, here's my overall thought to the whole thing.

"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

This goes for prohibiting, and full on banning. This is the primary reason I support CCW being allowed on campus. This is exactly what happened at Virginia Tech. Only the outlaws had guns.

[cremley]

Quote:       Originally Posted by TheWall

To start out I think maybe they should just let the teachers/professors carry. See how that works out first before arming the entire student body.

After reading all of the posts for this thread, and as a college student, The pros outweigh the cons for concealed carry. I do agree with "TheWall" on this though. Get the majority of the professors to carry as a trial and we will see how that goes before implementing CC for everyone on campus.

[Girlgun]

Quote:       Originally Posted by TXplt

....Y'all be careful making cross cultural analysis; in general these aren't valid. They only work when the cultural values between the countries beeing looked at are very similar..... Take care.

I tend to agree w/ you there, Tx. It's apples and oranges much of the time.

[tlarkin]

Quote:       Originally Posted by TXplt

Y'all be careful making cross cultural analysis; in general these aren't valid. They only work when the cultural values between the countries beeing looked at are very similar. Gun control (either strong or none) would have little effect on the crime rate in Japan--although it'd be wholly inappropriate for another country to monkey with their laws (kinda like the UN sometimes tries to do to ours ?). Speaking with some understanding of their culural values.

I only made those references to prove that an armed society is not always a peaceful one nor is it a polite one. I agree with you that gun control would really make no impact in America either way it went, but it would violate our rights.

I was kind of pointing out that it is a band-aid approach, and it won't ever fix any hard issues like violent crime. However, I do believe that no law abiding citizen should just sit there and get shot for no reason.

I work in education so my views on this are probably a bit different than most people who have not worked in education.

[FyreTyger]

I also work in education, and I can see your view point. But I also agree with the fact that I don't always trust those people on campus, and I'd rather be armed and ready, than at the mercy of a deranged gunman.

[tlarkin]

Quote:       Originally Posted by FyreTyger

I also work in education, and I can see your view point. But I also agree with the fact that I don't always trust those people on campus, and I'd rather be armed and ready, than at the mercy of a deranged gunman.

I am not against it, I just have the perception of most young people being dumb and irresponsible. Which is fine, I was young and dumb and irresponsible, drank and partied and chased women constantly, it is a part of growing up. I just know that in my early 20s if me and my friends had guns, I guarantee something bad would have happened. It is not to say that it would have been one of us, but perhaps someone we hung out with or the parties we went to so on and so forth.

I do think that I would feel better if any student that did carry was registered with the administration as a student that carried, so everyone knew (on the administration side) that the student had a gun. So, if anything were to come up with that student where a danger could be present with them owning a gun, then the school could revoke their right to carry.