F/A M1 Carbine

redrider13 · 10-25-2009, 11:44 PM

Yes, you read that right. Full auto M1 carbine. Sorry I cant get details on this much more than that. But basically I know a guy who inherited an M1 carbine and on the side of the receiver is a switch to make it go bang bang bang. What are the legalities (basic) of inheriting the rifle and etc? He doesnt want to do the paperwork to get the class III and would rather just take it and pull those parts out and destroy them if possible. Is there anything he should be aware of by doing this?

rondog · 10-26-2009, 12:18 AM

Sorry man, but your friend is sca-rewed. If that gun wasn't registered properly back during the amnesty period, it's illegal as hell and always will be illegal as hell. Even if all the f/a parts are removed and destroyed, it's still a f/a receiver and in the eyes of the ATF, it's a machinegun. Period. Don't pass Go. Don't collect $200. Go directly to Jail. Big time.

It ain't right, but that's the law. And they have NO sense of humor about it. The only thing he can safely do with it is call the ATF, tell them he inherited it, and let them come get it and take it to be destroyed. And hope to God they don't take him too.

It's a crying shame, IMO. I'd consider an intact and operable M2 carbine to be a priceless treasure!

redrider13 · 10-26-2009, 09:41 PM

Unfortunately I did some more digging last night and all of the above is true. It sucks. I already contacted him and told him about the situation so I'm just sad to see such a gun get destroyed.

Sarge · 10-28-2009, 02:15 AM

Rondog - Sorry but you are Wrong!
IF it was registered as an FA then he can get the carbine transferred to him by the estate. I'm not sure, but I believe this can be done without paying the $200??? He'll still have to do the paperwork.
IF it is marked M1 - and was never registered as a FA - rather than M2 all he has to do is remove about 4 parts - selector switch & 3(?) from the trigger housing - and he is legal. It is not necessary to replace the stock, op rod or trigger housing.
Sarge

rondog · 10-28-2009, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarge

Rondog - Sorry but you are Wrong!
IF it was registered as an FA then he can get the carbine transferred to him by the estate. I'm not sure, but I believe this can be done without paying the $200??? He'll still have to do the paperwork.
IF it is marked M1 - and was never registered as a FA - rather than M2 all he has to do is remove about 4 parts - selector switch & 3(?) from the trigger housing - and he is legal. It is not necessary to replace the stock, op rod or trigger housing.
Sarge

Yeah, IF it was registered and IF it's an M1 and not an M2. I don't know enough about them to say if there was a full-auto M1 or not, I'd always heard they were M2's. But I kinda doubt that somebody who brought a USGI machinegun home from the Army would get it registered. It's not like it was a captured German MP40.

But man, what a cool toy to have! I'd be sorely tempted to hide it away.....

Mooseman684 · 10-28-2009, 04:07 AM

If it WAS Registered , He Can LEGALLY Inherit it...There should be TAX STAMPED paperwork of Ownership. If he Has It , He can Contact The BATFE Immediaitely. He will need a copy of the will and he will have some paperwork to fill out.I believe it is tax free (No 200.00 Transfer)
Some M1 Carbines WERE converted to M2 select fire, but Sarge is correct...
Rich

JimBob · 10-29-2009, 07:03 PM

If the receiver is stamped M2 it will always be considered a machine gun.If it is stamped M1 removing certain parts specified by the ATF it can be returned to legal status,BUT,you cannot be in possesion of the parts and the rifle without being in violation of the NFA.The M1 carbine is the only weapon that the ATF will do this on.If it is stamped M2 the ATF rule of once a machine gun always a machine gun applies.Possesion of all the parts to convert one even if you do not posess the rifle is also considered as possesion of an NFA controlled firearm.

rondog · 10-29-2009, 07:58 PM

Just curious, but where would it be stamped M2? Where at on the receiver?

JimBob · 10-29-2009, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondog

Just curious, but where would it be stamped M2? Where at on the receiver?

On the front receiver ring.If made as an M2 it will be stamped Cal.30 M2.Some early production M2s were overstamped M1s.Many of the conversions done by the military were simply conversions done post-war on standard M1 carbines without changing any markings.The M2 marked carbines are very late WW2 rifles done before production was halted at the end of the war.It has been reported the CMP has received some with the returns of carbines and they have been stripped of usable parts and the receivers destroyed.Large numbers of of standard M1 configuration carbines were converted to the M2 standard at the time of the Korean War.

Mooseman684 · 10-29-2009, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimBob

Possesion of all the parts to convert one even if you do not posess the rifle is also considered as possesion of an NFA controlled firearm.

This is Not true...Possession of the Parts without Possessing an M1 is Legal.
You just cant have the Carbine AND all the parts. There are parts dealers at Gunshows up here that have the parts but No Carbines.
ATF ruled the Carbines legal without the parts and Possession of the parts legal without the Carbine , since the Parts are Not EVEN Considered to be a firearm. Several guns are like this...HK's ,Cetmes, Uzi's...to name a few.
Sportsmans Guide was selling the M1 Carbine F/A parts a while Back in their Catalog.

JimBob · 10-30-2009, 01:32 AM

Per the ATF web page 26 U.S.C.5845,27 CFR 479.11 I quote "A conversion kit is a machine gun for purposes of the NFA"end of quote.Most of those kits people are selling are lacking something to make a complete conversion.

Mooseman684 · 10-30-2009, 01:48 AM

Well , they have changed the law then , because this is The letter we had that said...

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, D.C. 20226

JUN 7 1994

FROM:Special Agent in Charge
Detroit Field Division

To: The Outfitter

SUBJECT: Conversion Kits

For purposes of the GCA, the term "firearm" is defined in 18 U.S.C.
section 921(a)(3) to mean:

(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is
designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile
by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of
any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer;
or (D) any destructive device...

Machinegun conversion kits are not among the items defined as
firearms by section 921(a)(3). Therefore, machine gun conversion
kits are not subject to regulation as firearms under the GCA. For
example, a person engaged in the business of dealing only in such
kits would not be required to obtain a license as a dealer in
firearms under the GCA. Also, a person who transferred a
machinegun conversion kit to a felon or other person prohibited
from receiving or possessing firearms would not violate 18 U.S.C.
section 922(d), nor would the prohibited person's receipt or
possession of the kit violate 18 U.S.C. section 922(g).

Special Agent in Charge
Detroit Field Division

JimBob · 10-30-2009, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

Well , they have changed the law then , because this is The letter we had that said...

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, D.C. 20226

JUN 7 1994

FROM:Special Agent in Charge
Detroit Field Division

To: The Outfitter

SUBJECT: Conversion Kits

For purposes of the GCA, the term "firearm" is defined in 18 U.S.C.
section 921(a)(3) to mean:

(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is
designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile
by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of
any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer;
or (D) any destructive device...

Machinegun conversion kits are not among the items defined as
firearms by section 921(a)(3). Therefore, machine gun conversion
kits are not subject to regulation as firearms under the GCA. For
example, a person engaged in the business of dealing only in such
kits would not be required to obtain a license as a dealer in
firearms under the GCA. Also, a person who transferred a
machinegun conversion kit to a felon or other person prohibited
from receiving or possessing firearms would not violate 18 U.S.C.
section 922(d), nor would the prohibited person's receipt or
possession of the kit violate 18 U.S.C. section 922(g).

Special Agent in Charge
Detroit Field Division

That is 15 year old information.What I quoted was from the 2005 regulations and I wouldn't swear that was accurate 4 years later But that is the latest or newest regulation listing shown.

Mooseman684 · 10-30-2009, 02:12 AM

You are correct Jimbob...I just looked it up and they have now added conversion kits...They cant make up their mind. Just like the shoestring that was classed as a Machinegun is Now NOT a Machinegun...But putting the string on a semi -Auto Makes it a temporary Machinegun...

10-25-2009, 11:44 PM	#1
redrider13 Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 91	F/A M1 Carbine Yes, you read that right. Full auto M1 carbine. Sorry I cant get details on this much more than that. But basically I know a guy who inherited an M1 carbine and on the side of the receiver is a switch to make it go bang bang bang. What are the legalities (basic) of inheriting the rifle and etc? He doesnt want to do the paperwork to get the class III and would rather just take it and pull those parts out and destroy them if possible. Is there anything he should be aware of by doing this?

10-26-2009, 12:18 AM	#2
rondog Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 3,296	Sorry man, but your friend is sca-rewed. If that gun wasn't registered properly back during the amnesty period, it's illegal as hell and always *will* be illegal as hell. Even if all the f/a parts are removed and destroyed, it's still a f/a receiver and in the eyes of the ATF, it's a machinegun. Period. Don't pass Go. Don't collect $200. Go directly to Jail. Big time. It ain't right, but that's the law. And they have NO sense of humor about it. The only thing he can safely do with it is call the ATF, tell them he inherited it, and let them come get it and take it to be destroyed. And hope to God they don't take him too. It's a crying shame, IMO. I'd consider an intact and operable M2 carbine to be a priceless treasure! __________________ I child-proofed my house, but they still keep getting in! Last edited by rondog; 10-26-2009 at 12:22 AM.

10-28-2009, 02:15 AM	#4
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 390	Rondog - Sorry but you are Wrong! IF it was registered as an FA then he can get the carbine transferred to him by the estate. I'm not sure, but I believe this can be done without paying the $200??? He'll still have to do the paperwork. IF it is marked M1 - and was never registered as a FA - rather than M2 all he has to do is remove about 4 parts - selector switch & 3(?) from the trigger housing - and he is legal. It is not necessary to replace the stock, op rod or trigger housing. Sarge __________________ Calling illegal aliens undocumented immigrants is like calling drug dealers unlicensed pharmacists!

10-28-2009, 04:07 AM	#6
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness. Unit 13 Posts: 11,310 Images: 2	If it WAS Registered , He Can LEGALLY Inherit it...There should be TAX STAMPED paperwork of Ownership. If he Has It , He can Contact The BATFE Immediaitely. He will need a copy of the will and he will have some paperwork to fill out.I believe it is tax free (No 200.00 Transfer) Some M1 Carbines WERE converted to M2 select fire, but Sarge is correct... Rich __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM!

10-29-2009, 07:58 PM	#8
rondog Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 3,296	Just curious, but where would it be stamped M2? Where at on the receiver? __________________ I child-proofed my house, but they still keep getting in!

10-26-2009, 09:41 PM	#3
redrider13 Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 91	Unfortunately I did some more digging last night and all of the above is true. It sucks. I already contacted him and told him about the situation so I'm just sad to see such a gun get destroyed.

10-29-2009, 07:03 PM	#7
JimBob Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: East Central Illinois Posts: 725	If the receiver is stamped M2 it will always be considered a machine gun.If it is stamped M1 removing certain parts specified by the ATF it can be returned to legal status,BUT,you cannot be in possesion of the parts and the rifle without being in violation of the NFA.The M1 carbine is the only weapon that the ATF will do this on.If it is stamped M2 the ATF rule of once a machine gun always a machine gun applies.Possesion of all the parts to convert one even if you do not posess the rifle is also considered as possesion of an NFA controlled firearm.

10-30-2009, 01:32 AM	#11
JimBob Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: East Central Illinois Posts: 725	Per the ATF web page 26 U.S.C.5845,27 CFR 479.11 I quote "A conversion kit is a machine gun for purposes of the NFA"end of quote.Most of those kits people are selling are lacking something to make a complete conversion.

10-30-2009, 01:48 AM	#12
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness. Unit 13 Posts: 11,310 Images: 2	Well , they have changed the law then , because this is The letter we had that said... DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Washington, D.C. 20226 JUN 7 1994 FROM:Special Agent in Charge Detroit Field Division To: The Outfitter SUBJECT: Conversion Kits For purposes of the GCA, the term "firearm" is defined in 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(3) to mean: (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device... Machinegun conversion kits are not among the items defined as firearms by section 921(a)(3). Therefore, machine gun conversion kits are not subject to regulation as firearms under the GCA. For example, a person engaged in the business of dealing only in such kits would not be required to obtain a license as a dealer in firearms under the GCA. Also, a person who transferred a machinegun conversion kit to a felon or other person prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms would not violate 18 U.S.C. section 922(d), nor would the prohibited person's receipt or possession of the kit violate 18 U.S.C. section 922(g). Special Agent in Charge Detroit Field Division __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM!

10-30-2009, 02:12 AM	#14
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness. Unit 13 Posts: 11,310 Images: 2	You are correct Jimbob...I just looked it up and they have now added conversion kits...They cant make up their mind. Just like the shoestring that was classed as a Machinegun is Now NOT a Machinegun...But putting the string on a semi -Auto Makes it a temporary Machinegun... __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM!