how good is good enough?

[goodsteel]

I have been shooting since I could hold a rifle. I have always wanted to shoot in a competition but I could see that my accuracy was by no means "competition grade" even in my opinion. My father always explained my lack of accuracy by telling me that "the rifle (a marlin 30-30) will shoot better than you can, there are alot more good rifles out there than there are people to shoot them." Well I invested alot of time reloading and trying to sqeeze every last minute of angle out of that rifle. I sucseeded in producing sub- minute of angle groups at 100 yards with that gun but I was unsatisfied. I have owned a number of bolt action rifles since then but none of them could give me that perfect group I was looking for untill this year. I bought a Remington 700 in .300 win mag factory ammo was impressive with 1" groups @ 100yrd but when I reloaded my own ammo I finally found the group I was looking for as I could cover three shots with a dime @ 200yrd!!! (I told my dad "see it was the gun all along.") My question is, I know that I can shoot darn good by my standards but are those groups good enough to give me a shot at outshooting these guys that spend <$4000? In other words, when is the rifle good enough and what remains to be seen is the skill of the shooter?

[billy]

wow ,
thats a tough question.
those champs are incredible shots AND they use the very best equipment money can buy.
you never hear of someone winning a big match with a medium priced rifle.
it seems to be a setup with a $3000 scope not to mention a custom match rifle.
and the guy shoots 10's of thousands of rounds a year.
and he is always getting a brand new custom barrel or an entire custom gun being built for him while he is shooting his current one.
i dont want to be a wet blanket but you need disposable income and a LOT of free time .

you are a heluva shot and thats a nice rifle but i dont know..............

ive got $1100 into mine and i know it aint going to win much.
thats why i gave up my dream of smallbore benchrest competition.
not enough money and not near enough time.
(i hafta go to work )

[rfc357]

The way to get started in competitive shooting is to just go and do it. You (probably) won't win your first match, and you will make a lot of mistakes. But you will learn. Spend your time watching the people who win. They will probably even offer to help you.

I shoot service rifle competition. My club will loan you a rifle for a match, and sell you the ammunition at cost. This is not unusual. I'm an instructor, and I will help newbies if they want the help.

It's a great game. Don't worry about winning. Just do it.

[nathangdad]

Based on what you posted for the Remington I would be in a state of
delerious ecstacy!!!!!

Please note the .30-.30 has never been a target gun and this goes for both the ammo and the rifles built to shoot it. So, you do have an engineering/design limit to what it will do.

If you are really interested in competitive target shooting you will have
to have competitive equipment and that, unfortunately, comes with a price tag most of us cannot afford.

Anyway, your Remington results are a matter for which you should take great pride.

[LarryO1970]

Originally Posted by goodsteel

I have been shooting since I could hold a rifle. I have always wanted to shoot in a competition but I could see that my accuracy was by no means "competition grade" even in my opinion. My father always explained my lack of accuracy by telling me that "the rifle (a marlin 30-30) will shoot better than you can, there are alot more good rifles out there than there are people to shoot them." Well I invested alot of time reloading and trying to sqeeze every last minute of angle out of that rifle. I sucseeded in producing sub- minute of angle groups at 100 yards with that gun but I was unsatisfied. I have owned a number of bolt action rifles since then but none of them could give me that perfect group I was looking for untill this year. I bought a Remington 700 in .300 win mag factory ammo was impressive with 1" groups @ 100yrd but when I reloaded my own ammo I finally found the group I was looking for as I could cover three shots with a dime @ 200yrd!!! (I told my dad "see it was the gun all along.") My question is, I know that I can shoot darn good by my standards but are those groups good enough to give me a shot at outshooting these guys that spend <$4000? In other words, when is the rifle good enough and what remains to be seen is the skill of the shooter?

Have you ever considered entering a smallbore competition to get your finesse skills down? A good friend of mine started with Anschutz .22's and is now one of the premier military high power shooters. Granted, they are very expensive so if it were me, I'd look to a less expensive alternative. It may help you in refining your "touch" and your breathing control skills.

Unfortunately, most of us are old enough to have our bad habits built in... which are very tough, if not sometimes impossible to fix.

nathangdad is correct, the .30-30 is not the round you want to shoot for competitions. I gather you are referring to Cowboy Shooting? If so, maybe another shooter can suggest an alternative round for better accuracy and consistency.

[rfc357]

Thereis nothing inherently inaccurate about the .30-30. A few years ago I conducted an experiment with a Remington 788 bolt action in .30-30. By applying standard loading techniques, and using good bullets, I produced loads that shot at 1 MOA or a little larger. Wasn't difficult at all.

[Silent Shooter]

A dear friend and former Marine sniper that I compete with shoots less than .375 inch groups at 200. He is a truly amazing shot, and even then, he does not always win. It takes a lot of money, time, and natural ability.

If you are interested, take your time, build your rifle as you can. Be patient. I planned my first rifle for about 10 years before I bought the first part. It then took me 3 years to build it. It was worth the wait.

Originally Posted by rfc357

Thereis nothing inherently inaccurate about the .30-30. A few years ago I conducted an experiment with a Remington 788 bolt action in .30-30. By applying standard loading techniques, and using good bullets, I produced loads that shot at 1 MOA or a little larger. Wasn't difficult at all.

1 MOA is not even close to being accurate when talking about competition shooting... For deer hunting, 1 MOA is a tack driver, but not for comp.

[LarryO1970]

As Silent Shooter states, natural ability is key ... along with a lot of money for guns and gear.

My buddy (SSgt Stuart Mackey) of Camp Perry and multiple National Match fame started with the basics... a 22. He recently tied the national score for military high power. Had my eyes not turned south... I would still be shooting with him. We grew up together as shooter/spotter partners.

You can do it ... given time, patience, diligence and money. It's not as far off as it may seem to be....

Competition is in the arena of 1/4 minute of angle ... basic fundamentals are key.

[wunhunglo]

Question for you Larry?
Military High Power shooting, a la Camp Perry, what sights are they using, Match type Irons or are some comps run with Optical sights?

[rfc357]

Depends on what kind of competition. The X ring on high power targets is 1 MOA.

Service rifle and match rifle use iron sights. Max range is 600 yards.

Wimbledon is any rifle, any sights, 1000 yards.

Leach is any rifle, iron sights, 1000 yards.

I just don't believe 0.375" at 200 yards. Maybe once, not consistently. Not with a rifle you can hold. This is better than national champion bench resters can do.

Palma is 800, 900, 1000 yards, 7.62x51, iron sights.

[wunhunglo]

Thanks

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by goodsteel

I have been shooting since I could hold a rifle. I have always wanted to shoot in a competition but I could see that my accuracy was by no means "competition grade" even in my opinion. My father always explained my lack of accuracy by telling me that "the rifle (a marlin 30-30) will shoot better than you can, there are alot more good rifles out there than there are people to shoot them." Well I invested alot of time reloading and trying to sqeeze every last minute of angle out of that rifle. I sucseeded in producing sub- minute of angle groups at 100 yards with that gun but I was unsatisfied. I have owned a number of bolt action rifles since then but none of them could give me that perfect group I was looking for untill this year. I bought a Remington 700 in .300 win mag factory ammo was impressive with 1" groups @ 100yrd but when I reloaded my own ammo I finally found the group I was looking for as I could cover three shots with a dime @ 200yrd!!! (I told my dad "see it was the gun all along.") My question is, I know that I can shoot darn good by my standards but are those groups good enough to give me a shot at outshooting these guys that spend <$4000? In other words, when is the rifle good enough and what remains to be seen is the skill of the shooter?

Welcome to the addictive world of shooting.

Your gun is NEVER going to be good enough and that is why there is many different forms of Competition, to allow people to go to the level they are best siuted for.

If you spend $1000 or more on a firearm, the chances that you have a weapon that you won't have to blame for bad shots is increased many times over the $500 weapon. I paid over $350 just for my REAR SIGHT on my M1A.

It is ALL UP TO YOU and what will satisfy YOU. How far do you want to go and at what point will you be HAPPY with yourself. If you are true shooter then the answer to those two points does NOT exsist. You keep pushing to be better and better and that is when you realize, YOU ARE ADDICTED.

I would suggest to find a NRA sponsored HIGH POWERED MATCH in your area and ENTER. Go and compete against Novice and Open and see how you stand. You will leave with the conclusion, you will be back NEXT year and show them, or you will leave feeling you have gone as far as you want.

ENJOY and Welcome to shooting, I only gave up pushing when my eyesight started to falter, otherwise I would still be on the Firing Line trying to prove a point and feeling those chills when I see the Damn good group in the center.

HAPPINESS, IS A TIGHT ONE

[big boomer]

I am not the worlds best shot,but I did compete with some that were state champs and I even won a few NRA award points (worth a buck a piece back in the early 70's) this in smallbore comp. I later shot pistol and got as far as the regionals. What I am trying to say is go and compete you will learn from the others and will be surprised at how well you do. PS I never shot a group as good as yours at 200 yards so you can do well.
As you compete you will find out what equipment you will need. I shot small bore with an old Remington 513T and took points away from new Anschutz shooters. The main thing is to have fun and learn. If you want to start with 22 there are many old 22's out there like my old Remington, many under a grand and a bunch under 500. I don't compete anymore but I still have a Marlin 2000 and several Winchester 52's. They work just as well on small game or plinking.

[Silent Shooter]

Originally Posted by rfc357

I just don't believe 0.375" at 200 yards. Maybe once, not consistently. Not with a rifle you can hold. This is better than national champion bench resters can do.

He cannot do it every time, but he does it often enough to give him credit for it. i have seen him shoot it with my own eyes. But as you might have guessed, he still has his flyers, pulled shots, snafus, etc. like the rest of us...

[squirrelbaster]

idont know how good youhave to be to win but it seems to me that your good enough to compete, and by all standards WAY better than me!

[wunhunglo]

We are all good enough to compete; it is just the different levels at which we compete!

[rfc357]

Originally Posted by wunhunglo

We are all good enough to compete; it is just the different levels at which we compete!

Too true.

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by wunhunglo

We are all good enough to compete; it is just the different levels at which we compete!

I shot in competition for many years and who I learned was "MY BIGGEST COMPETITOR, WAS MYSELF"

It wasn't until I settled with myself, did I settle in to competing and really start to enjoy it. I think it was at the same time that things started to become INSTINCTIVE and I didn't have to think about each item as much. Things became more ROUTINE and less troublesome. Scores started to improve and dope changes became slight, if any. Postions came more naturally as did the feel for a good shot. Once I settled things with MYSELF, the competition went away and I was enjoying the MATCHES.

I did my most learning on a 9V 45 Off-hand String, that is when I learned that Mind Games were only going to hurt and never help.

[wunhunglo]

and I was enjoying the MATCHES

That's the name of the game, having fun! Don't get me wrong though, I enjoy winning but it doesn't always happen. If we didn't enjoy it, why else would we lie down in all weathers and throw money at the ground hundreds of yards away!
Last Sunday, I was out at the range with 20 odd others (some more Odd than others), it was about 2-3 degrees (C) and with a gusty 20 knot, 9 o'clock crosswind which meant the 223 guys had quite a bit of windage screwed on at 600 metres but every one of us had a good day! Sort of determines the term, "Gun nut"!

[Wingwiper]

Wun

Do you read the WIND or the MIRAGE?