hollow point Vs FMJ

[Wingwiper]

Mick and Irish

I can see the drag of the FMJ because of the blunt and flat back. I was never aware of the normenclature of the M852 and may have fired it many times without ever realizing it was also referred to as HP.
I found the replies to be very informative and I have gone to some links and am reading up on it now. I can see by my own theory with the Green Tip how the FMJ with the jacket (could be variable in thickness, thus balance thrown off) and the lead core could be inferior. When we were shooting only against LC M118 I guess the Inferiorness wouldn't be so pronounced.
My eyes are tired and not so good any more and I wish sites like this were available in my prime, some years ago. We learned by word of mouth and only by those who were willing to share and that was not the rule of the day to share info with your competitor for them to gain points against you. Sites like this are GREAT and allow old hasbeens like myself to learn and to pass on without fear of shooting beside any of you....
Thanks for the info.

[irish murphy]

One thing i really like about the australian handgun silhouette scene.The people are more than happy to share info.I learnt a lot from some really nice people.Ofcourse there was the few who didnt like saying anything.But they didnt have many mates.

[Wingwiper]

Irish

There was NO INTERNET to speak of when I was last competing. We all knew each other or knew of each other and tips in shooting were very guarded. Hell! there was a fellow team mate who held a secret for the 10 years I shot with him. He wouldn't even share it with his fellow team mates in fear we would beat him on individual matches.
Our coach was always assisting inferior teams and there coaches but never told them everything. We would help enough to allow them to be better but not great and that way the program was ensured to continue another year or so.
Sites like this are now a great source for the Novice to come in and gain info from the older Open or OLD shooters in their disicpline and give it a try prior to competing.
Great Site... Makes me kinda envious of what is at the Novice's and even the Open shooters finger tips.
Good Luck

[338RemUltraMag]

glad i could help, it is frusterating to milk the answers out of people... but you make me feel old the way ya talk... i'm only 20, i hope that doesn't effect the credibility of my posts any... I shoot competition but not f class that is the only reason i know about match bullets. Oh, by the way, the "hollow-point" on a .224 cal bullet is only about 5 or 6 thousandths across so really it is almost a fmj.

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by 338RemUltraMag

glad i could help, it is frusterating to milk the answers out of people... but you make me feel old the way ya talk... i'm only 20, i hope that doesn't effect the credibility of my posts any... I shoot competition but not f class that is the only reason i know about match bullets. Oh, by the way, the "hollow-point" on a .224 cal bullet is only about 5 or 6 thousandths across so really it is almost a fmj.

Your credibility is based on your knowledge and your ability to convey it to others and you did a right fine job.

You gave the explanation I was hoping to get and you did a fine job explaining. Now that it has been described, I do remember bullets with pin holes in the tip, I just never gave it much thought nor did I ever think of them as Hollow points. I guess when a few of the lads here started to speak about Hollow Points I was instantly thinking about hunting rounds and the very pronounced hollow point. These M852s are filled to the brim with lead and the hole depth is minor as compared to a regular hollow point. So Yes I can understand it better now. Son of a gun....

My competition was pretty much over by 95 when my eyes started to have their focus point a bit farther than where the front sight was. I went from seeing what kind of stone the Ants were carrying to having to believe it if someone told me there were Ants there. The one thing I have the fondest memories of is my shooting career. Good luck in your shooting endeavors.

[338RemUltraMag]

every one gets turned around happens to me a lot.... glad i can help, ever think of shooting bench competition with a scope?

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by 338RemUltraMag

every one gets turned around happens to me a lot.... glad i can help, ever think of shooting bench competition with a scope?

Nah! My days are over and I still plink alot and I still shoot, just not in a competitive mode.
I had my cup of tea and loved it while it was HOT..... I have my memories and my stories and wouldn't even attempt to try to shoot with the young eyes.

HAPPINESS IS A TIGHT ONE....

[vikingpreacher]

It could go either way when you consider that 1 rifle will shoot 1 bullet better. I don't really think that 1 bullet is inherently more accurate than another.

[338RemUltraMag]

well wingwiper it would be an honour to know everything you know from trial and error... all that info... it dumbfounds me to realize how much I have to learn before i am even a serious shooter...

[pruneemac]

no question HP are more accurate. Why would you want to shoot FMJ? I know they are cheap but they arent very good for hunting. Illegal in some states.

[Mick]

this is in cmp national match forum for a reason, we are not talking about hunting, but target shooting.

[mitch_mckee]

Originally Posted by pruneemac

no question HP are more accurate. Why would you want to shoot FMJ? I know they are cheap but they arent very good for hunting. Illegal in some states.

Not the same as a hunting hollow point. Not intended for hunting anything but enemy troops.

[338RemUltraMag]

personally i think for enemy troops a V-MAX would be in order but FMJ's would be ok if they were match grade

[mitch_mckee]

Originally Posted by 338RemUltraMag

personally i think for enemy troops a V-MAX would be in order but FMJ's would be ok if they were match grade

Any type of expanding bullet is illegal in war according to the Hague Conventions. The hollow points in question don't expand so they qualify.

Shooting terrorist is another matter. They are not under the flag of any country so you can shoot them with anything you like.

[338RemUltraMag]

yeah i get the geneva convention but the bullet thing is stupid (non-expanding) but the v-max would be nice for the enemy troops to clean up

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by 338RemUltraMag

well wingwiper it would be an honour to know everything you know from trial and error... all that info... it dumbfounds me to realize how much I have to learn before i am even a serious shooter...

That is very kind of you, Thanks

Let me now CORRECT you.
You do NOT have to learn anything to become a SERIOUS shooter, you only have to have a Love, Desire to learn and the commintment to see it thru. JUST DO IT.
The fun and what makes the stories for you to be able to tell later, is the learning process. Sure there are the real serious shooters, but they did NOT walk up to that firing line the first time, knowing everything and they have fallen on their face on more than one occassion, don't let them fool you. In shooting we had a Saying.

"THERE ARE THOSE WHO HAVE AND THOSE WHO WILL"

So when you shoot your first cross-fire and hear a roar of laughter from behind, know full well, they either have already or they will be.

The Team or the Individual that won the match was the one who had their EGGS IN ONE BASKET. That is all it is. Everyone will have a bad day, no matter how hard they try and then there will be the days you will baffle yourself and wonder how it got so easy so fast. Learn to just concentrate on the task at hand and stay RELAXED.

Shooting is a very rewarding sport and something that will clean out the mind faster than anything I know. After a day of shooting (Sunrise to Sunset) it is hard to give someone your name. At the end of the day, as you sit on the whatever yardline, cleaning gear, and breaking out the COLD ones and having other shooters from other teams come over and talk with you, memories are being embedded. It is these times that you will never forget and the other shooters who become Match Friends who make it all worth while.
Our team NEVER went to the WAILING WALL until after the LAST MATCH at the END. We didn't need any more Monkeys on our back than we already had. We tried to make sure that we had the minium amount of Mind Games to screw us up.
JUST DO IT and have a ball and mix with some of the best damn people you will ever have the pleasure to meet.
As a Novice, you will be picked on and you will have your PIT PIG experiences and the Target Bets and the long tales being told to you.. That is the normal and part of the fun as well. GOOD LUCK.

[rfc357]

Wingwiper, I certainly did not meant to insult or offend you or anyone else. I do not believe theoretical analysis of projectiles is of much use. I just go to matches and observe what the winners use. What I see is almost exclusively Sierra hollowpoints. So that is what I use. They certainly shoot better both in my match M1 and my Rock River mouse gun than any FMJs I have tried.

Results are all that count.

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by rfc357

Wingwiper, I certainly did not meant to insult or offend you or anyone else. I do not believe theoretical analysis of projectiles is of much use. I just go to matches and observe what the winners use. What I see is almost exclusively Sierra hollowpoints. So that is what I use. They certainly shoot better both in my match M1 and my Rock River mouse gun than any FMJs I have tried.

Results are all that count.

I was as much to blame as anyone. I was picturing HOLLOW POINTS as in Hunting, when you said that and I was Baffled why they would be considered more accurate.
I got several explanations, that set me straight and now I know that the HPs that are being referred to in Matches are not per se really HPs.
I have so much 7.62mm left, I guess I am not going to worry about, my competing days are over, but I learned a lot on this thread and that is what it is all about.

You are right about it is the RESULTS THAT COUNT. I found it very interesting when I was reading about the FMJs and how there may be excessive lead at the rear from over pour or flow and that will cause a bad flight to the target. WOW! I thought LC FMJs were as good as you could get. The info I picked up on here, I wish I knew 14 years ago or before. The point increases we could have had.

Take Care

[irish murphy]

Hunting hollow points and match grade hollow points all have a hollow point.Why would you call something a hollow point if it wasnt.All the match grade pills ive used have a hollow point.Ive opened up nearly every type of projie i have ever used just to see what its got inside.

[Wingwiper]

As I read about the Match KIng Match HPs, they had a real small hole where the lead was poured in and then closed as much as possible. They had a jacket that also covered the base of the projectile and did not allow for SPILL OUT or OVERFLOW of the lead. The opening as I understand it, is very small in diameter and just inside of the opening is lead.

Where as a Hunting HP the hole goes for a ways in and I am not sure about the base whether it ihas lead exposed or the jacket is at the base. I don't have any.

So the HPs used in Matches is not really HP as per se and I think I cut and pasted a section in an earlier post that may have explained it better.

While sometimes described as a "hollow point," this is a mischaracterization in law of war terms. Generally a "hollow point" bullet is thought of in terms of its ability to expand on impact with soft tissue. Physical examination of the MatchKing "open tip" bullet reveals that its opening is extremely small in comparison to the aperture in comparable hollow point hunting bullets; for example, the 165-grain GameKing is a true hollow point boat tail bullet with an aperture substantially greater than the MatchKing, and skiving (serrations cut into the jacket) to insure expansion. In the MatchKing, the open tip is closed as much as possible to provide better aerodynamics, and contains no skiving. The lead core of the MatchKing bullet is entirely covered by the bullet jacket. While the GameKing bullet is designed to bring the ballistic advantages of a match bullet to long range hunting, the manufacturer expressly recommends against the use of the MatchKing for hunting game of any size because it does not have the expansion characteristics of a hunting bullet.