06-07-2008, 08:31 AM
| #1 |
| Military Rifle Collector   | Why keep a bound book? Ok so Im reading all about getting a C&R lic. I see all kinds of rules that seem pretty insignificant. All of them state you MUST keep a BOUND BOOK listing all your fire arms whether you used a C&R to purchase them or not. It says they MUST go in your BOUND BOOK. So who looks at your bound book? Why do they look at it? Can the BATF enter your home at any time like they can when you have a 01 FFL? Who can demand to see your BOUND BOOK? Can the local yokel police chief that you have to send your notice of your 03 to, demand to see your BOUND BOOK? I can find no mention of what happens if you dont have a BOUND BOOK or who can see it and when they can demand to see it.
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06-07-2008, 02:05 PM
| #2 |
| Senior Member  | I would say, having had an 01 FFl for 21 years, that failing to abide by the rules could lead to your arrest. The BATF can inspect upon 24 hrs notice, and I would think that if the police cheif wanted to peruse your books, there would be an ATF agent there also. Selling weapons without the proper documentation, would be deemed a violation of the US Chapters I am sure. Every gun would be confiscated and you would be a convicted felon after court is finished.That is with an 01 FFL. Now with a 03 C&R I understand that the BATF can inspect although they ususally will set an appointment. If your bound book is not up to order, then they can yank your licence. If they feel you acquired guns and disposed of them in a way to disguise, which failure to keep proper books would do; I am sure they could fole charges. In both cases, I think, that if you willfully failed to keep a bound book, you could be charged with something. The BATF are crafty fellows. As for showing your books, I believe you only have to show them to the BATF, but if a local LEO wanted to look, and you refused, the BATF would be at the door the next day. Applicants that get a licence and then don't do what is right, risk the others who want to keep a licence and do the right thing. |
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06-07-2008, 07:32 PM
| #3 |
| Military Rifle Collector | So when you have an 03 they can set up an appointment and search your home just like they can with an 01 FFL?
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06-07-2008, 09:14 PM
| #4 |
| Senior Member | I don't believe so, and I have never heard of that being done. When I had my 01 FFL, I operated out of a private residence. One of the several things that made me give it up was the threat that BATF could search the entire house, 2 that I was not 'zoned' for a business and was getting hassled by code enforcement and 3, grief with the sales tax authoroties who found it strange for a 'business' to have so little sales. I don't believe the search part would come up unless the book keeping was so shoddy and the BATF had evidence of sales and purchases not being entered. At that point any search would probably because they had the intent of filing charges. PS, I know of a non-licensee who was arrested for selling guns at a flea market.BATF had been monitoring him, and was aware he would buy a gun and then put it on his table. When they arrested him, it was at the flea market, and they then proceeded to search his car and his house 30 miles away. They already had gotten the indictment and the search warrants in advance. He was charged with selling 9 guns without a license and although he was 65 yrs old they sentenced him to 12 months federal prison which he served in SC. |
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06-07-2008, 09:29 PM
| #5 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Turning base to final -KAPV-
Posts: 248
| 12 months in federal custody sound like 12 really good reasons why you might want to keep the bound book and keep it in order.  |
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06-08-2008, 02:52 AM
| #6 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Colorado
Posts: 219
|  There is only one reason to keep a "bound book" - It is a federal requirement of an FFL or C&R lisc. Basikly, w/o a search warrent the feds can Not "just search your house!" The only part of your house they have access to is that part which you have declared to be your business location, probably boils down to where your safe is located. My understanding is that as a C&R you can arrange to meet them somewhere to allow them to look at your book & paperwork, you don't have to let them into the house??? I'm not up on the C&R stuff because I have an FFL, have had for 33 yrs. I'm one of the so called "kitchen table dealers." One of the few left. I use my garage as my place of business so they have no access to my house. As required, I list my hours of operation - Followed by: By Appointment Only. Thus they have to call and make an appointment to do a compliance check. As a C&R you are not required to have "business hours" so they must call and make an appointment to do a check. M14 is right about the hassel when the dumbass brady law went into effect. It took me 18 months to get around the county and get a business lisc. The good thing is I'll not have to do it again as it has no expiration date. Almost forgot - Nobody at the local, county or state level can come out and check your rekords for any reason - unless you voluntarily allow them to, which would be really Stupid!!! Those are Federal doccuments that NO One else has authority to look at. Sarge
__________________ Calling illegal aliens undocumented immigrants is like calling drug dealers unlicensed pharmacists! |
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06-08-2008, 08:01 AM
| #7 |
| Thor's Hammer  | Cap'n- If the BATF wants to inspect your bound book, they usually call you and you have the option to bring your book and collection down to the nearest BATF office. This inspection schedule is computer generated. I am waiting on a written decision from them, but this is the way it reads to me. 1) When you get your C&R, YOU become a Collector. Nothing you bought previously needs to be entered into your bound book. 2) Any C&R weapon purchased in any manner after you became a Collector must be entered into the book wether you used your license or not for the purchase. 3) If you decide to sell, say a M44 that you bought before you became a Collector, it's disposition must be entered into your bound book.
__________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers |
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06-08-2008, 12:39 PM
| #8 |
| Military Rifle Collector | See this is exactly why I wont get an 03. Nobody can definately tell me what is and what isnt the law. Is there a website that lists this? Or do you get a copy of the laws pertaining to 03's when you get your lic? I guess its just easier to go through the 01 holder I know. He doesnt charge me anything for transfers but he is a lil slow sometimes because he like everyone is busy in his life.
__________________ Let's light this fuse and see what happens! |
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06-08-2008, 12:55 PM
| #9 |
| Senior Member   | I've had an 03 for 8 yrs and have never been cobtacted by the BATFE...If you wanna play, you gotta pay...if you don't want to follow the rules don't get one. I think its pretty cool getting guns delivered to your door... 
__________________ U.S. Army 1976-1979 237th Combat Engineers Heilbronn, Germany |
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06-08-2008, 01:08 PM
| #10 | ||
| Senior Member  Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Montgomery, IL.
Posts: 4,328
| Quote:
Quote:
 Last edited by gandog56; 06-08-2008 at 01:13 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost | ||
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06-08-2008, 04:20 PM
| #12 |
| Military Rifle Collector | I dont think I have anything ilegal in my house that I can think of. I dont do drugs and lead a simple life other than stealing cars for a living. They cant bust ya for having sugar substitute draino and cold packs until you turn it into explosive so Im good there. I wasnt asking about this to break the law. I dont know why the hell anyone ever thought that. I am asking this to keep from having stormtroopers breaking down my door because I did something that I didnt know I shouldnt do. (hows that for a sentance?). But like I said I dont have to pay a dime for transfers so until I know what Im doing I think Ill just pass on the 03.
__________________ Let's light this fuse and see what happens! |
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06-08-2008, 07:09 PM
| #13 |
| Moderator   Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Selma, NC
Posts: 2,223
| The main reason I keep a bound book is that it's a requirement to hold my C&R. I knew that going in and agreed to the concept (whether I like it or not) before I applied. Plus it helps to be able to answer the questions about how many acquisitions and disposals I had when renewing.
__________________ troylaplante.com |
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06-08-2008, 07:22 PM
| #14 | |
| spiritual counselor  | Quote:
there is no search. i have only used mine once for a gun. i use it for reduced prices from certain companies.
__________________  Last edited by billy; 06-08-2008 at 07:24 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost | |
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06-08-2008, 08:13 PM
| #15 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Montgomery, IL.
Posts: 4,328
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06-08-2008, 09:27 PM
| #16 |
| Senior Member | Bring my guns to them???NO,No, would look real good me wheelin in a score or more of guns into a Federal building where they make you pass thru medal detectors and get wanded because you have a flag lapel pin and tie tac. They would not make you bring guns in. They may want to look at your books to see if they look OK, but bring guns in; Hell NO!!! |
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06-08-2008, 09:32 PM
| #17 | |
| spiritual counselor | Quote:
they would come to you house. it is your call.
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06-08-2008, 09:42 PM
| #19 |
| spiritual counselor | i know lots of crufflers and they nor myself have ever heard of someone getting inspected. i am sure it has happened but ......
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