I don't know what you guys are talking about. Keeping a record of firearms in a "bound binder"? What the hell is that?
I got a C&R license because I liked the idea of being able to get antique firearms delivered directly to my house, not that I can afford to buy any.
I hope that I completely misunderstand what you guys are talking about, because I am certainly not going to comply with any garbage like this.
Am I the the only one who's confused?
Last edited by mollysdaddy; 03-08-2012 at 05:32 PM.
get it barry! A c&r is no hassel and you can realy get some good deals. Every seriouse collector should have one. The only disadvantage to having a c&r is all the money you spend on the good deals that are so good you hate to pass them up.
I don't know what you guys are talking about. Keeping a record of firearms in a "bound binder"? What the hell is that?
I got a C&R license because I liked the idea of being able to get antique firearms delivered directly to my house, not that I can afford to buy any.
I hope that I completely misunderstand what you guys are talking about, because I am certainly not going to comply with any garbage like this.
Am I the the only one who's confused?
It's real easy to make your own record book. I designed my own form for my book. You can make copies for your own book if you like.
and to be clear, it's just incoming and outgoing C&R purchases, although I chose to list a C&R eligible rifle I purchased normally because it became an outgoing trade for an incoming C&R rifle and I wanted to document where it came from. clear as mud, right?
I printed some sheets and they are bound in a 3 ring binder. Record keeping is a good idea in any case and it's the main thing needed to be a good boy with C&R. Only takes a few seconds per rifle and you don't have to send it anywhere or anything. I keep all copies of FFLs I send to and receive from in the binder too.
My understanding is when audits occurs they check the book and actually don't even look at the guns.
I don't know what you guys are talking about. Keeping a record of firearms in a "bound binder"? What the hell is that?
I got a C&R license because I liked the idea of being able to get antique firearms delivered directly to my house, not that I can afford to buy any.
I hope that I completely misunderstand what you guys are talking about, because I am certainly not going to comply with any garbage like this.
Am I the the only one who's confused?
The bound book also called the Acquisition and Disposition (A&D) book is a requirement for all FFL holders so that at anytime, ATF may audit your acquisitions but mostly your dispositions.
On other forums I've been on, it seems Southwest states get their C&R A&D books audited more than other regions.
I don't know what you guys are talking about. Keeping a record of firearms in a "bound binder"? What the hell is that?
I got a C&R license because I liked the idea of being able to get antique firearms delivered directly to my house, not that I can afford to buy any.
I hope that I completely misunderstand what you guys are talking about, because I am certainly not going to comply with any garbage like this.
Am I the the only one who's confused?
If you are going to get a C&R license,you've got to play by their rules.It's not that hard to do just record your purchase when you get it and put the book in a safe place,for example,your gun safe.
I have no problem with keeping records of the A&D of my guns.
__________________
"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself"
Franklin D Roosevelt
does the "bound book" have to be a physical book or can it be a digital one (i.e. - on a flash drive)?
I'm pretty sure a flash drive would not be legal. See #2 below:
Quote:
you are REQUIRED to keep a bound book of all your C&R purchases.
The BATF can request to see your bound book at any time (most likely they will contact you via letter or phone call to setup a date - and you will need to comply). It is imperative you keep this record and accurately record all of your transactions in it. There are some arguments as to the rules around the bound book but here is what I have been able to gather (my rules are the most conservative to be safe). 1.) Must follow a specific format. 2.) Must be a physical log, electronic logs are not acceptable (although I think they are for regular FFL's and you can send in a form to BATF asking for a special disposition to use electronic records). 3.) Must be retained even if you give up your license. 4.) You must record any C&R purchase in the book from the time you have the license forward.
One good example is the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP). You can buy an Garand from them with no FFL or FFL C&R. If you have a C&R, because the Garand is a C&R weapon YOU MUST record this in your bound book even though you did not need your C&R to make the purchase (People have given me grief on this - do what you want, but Surplus Rifle followed up with ATF and this is FACT, the only weapons you don't need to to record are weapons not desginated C&R eligible period). You must also record any sale or "give away" of one of your C&R weapons in the disposition portion of your bound book. Purchases or sales of modern firearms (not designated as a C&R) do not need to be recorded in your log.
Sigh, and I just got that CMP Garand and didn't put it in my book yet. Gotta go and do that, now!
__________________
People think I'm paranoid because I own guns. If I own guns, what do I have to be paranoid about?
does the "bound book" have to be a physical book or can it be a digital one (i.e. - on a flash drive)?
You can put it on the source information on a flash drive but you should have a physical printout of the information. It does not need to be hand written...
Buds Gun Shop offers a free gun database program that has an area for listing C&R weapons along with all the pertinent info and a photo of the weapon. I'm going to be purchasing the full version as the free is limited to 10 weapons and I have more than that...LOL. But, you can differentiate between C&R and non C&R. Very easy to use and it also allows you to compile and print a report if you want a bound copy for back up.
Here is what I've found from the ATF regarding using a computer database instead of a bound book. Seems very straightford that if you computer program can do all of the requested tasks it can take the place of a bound book.
er computerized records may be
maintained without obtaining written approval from ATF if they contain all the required
information specified in the regulations and are maintained in a permanent form.
Additionally, industry members have questioned whether computer records in combination
with paper records may be maintained if they are permanent and contain all the
information required by the regulations.
ATF has determined that acquisition and disposition records required by 27 CFR Part 478,
Subpart H, and §§ 478.121, 478.122, 478.123, and 478.125(e), in computerized form,
satisfy the standard of permanency and are substantially equivalent to paper records if they
meet the following criteria:
1. All data entered into the computer system must be recorded into the database and
cannot be capable of being edited or modified at a later date without generating an
audit trail. The software system must retain any correction of errors as an entirely
new entry, without deleting or modifying the original entry. The system may allow
for entries in a notes column to explain any correction.
2. The system must have a reliable daily memory backup capability to protect the data
from accidental deletion or other system failure.
- 4 -
3. The system must meet the regulatory requirements for recording pertinent
information.
4. The system must allow queries by serial number, acquisition date, and name of the
manufacturer or importer. Commonly recognized trade names may be used when
recording the manufacturer/importer in the firearm description.
5. The FFL must periodically print all records from the system. Specifically, the
records must be printed:
(a) at least semiannually,
(b) upon request of an ATF officer,
(c) when the database is purged, and
(d) when the license is terminated
Printouts must be retained until the next printout is prepared.
The printouts must be limited to only the information required and specified by
regulation.
6. The FFL may download the required acquisition and disposition records to portable
storage devices such as Compact Discs (CDs), Digital Versatile Discs (DVDs), and
USB Flash Drives, instead of conducting the periodic printout of those records,
provided that the FFL presents the records in a printed format at ATF’s request. ATF
recognizes that printed records take up space and are not as easy to search as records
maintained in a digital format.
7. The computer printouts must contain firearms in inventory as well as all firearms
transferred during the period covered, sequentially by date of acquisition.
8. The system must record both the manufacturer and the importer of foreign-made
firearms.
9. Printouts may include antique firearms, but cannot include other merchandise.
However, antique firearms must be identified as “ANT” in the “firearm type” column.
10. The name and FFL number (if licensee) or name and address (if non-licensee) of the
supplier/consigner and the purchaser/transferee must be included in the computer
data. An ATF Form 4473 transaction number may be used in lieu of the address for
recording the transfer of a firearm to a non-licensee if the Forms 4473 are filed
numerically.
11. The system cannot rely upon invoices or other paper/manual systems to provide any
of the required information.
- 5 -
12. All required records including acquisition and disposition records, must remain at the
licensed premises.
13. Upon termination of a license, the FFL must provide an American Standard Code for
Information Interchange (ASCII) text file (in conformity with industry standards) and
a file description, in addition to printouts of all records, to the ATF Out-of-Business
Records Center. The printout and ASCII text file must contain the information as
prescribed by regulation. All records must be forwarded to the ATF Out-of-Business
Records Center in accordance with 27 CFR 478.127, including complete printouts,
and ASCII text file (and file description) of the A&D records, and all ATF Forms
4473.
Here is what I've found from the ATF regarding using a computer database instead of a bound book. Seems very straightford that if you computer program can do all of the requested tasks it can take the place of a bound book.
er computerized records may be
maintained without obtaining written approval from ATF if they contain all the required
information specified in the regulations and are maintained in a permanent form.
Additionally, industry members have questioned whether computer records in combination
with paper records may be maintained if they are permanent and contain all the
information required by the regulations.
ATF has determined that acquisition and disposition records required by 27 CFR Part 478,
Subpart H, and §§ 478.121, 478.122, 478.123, and 478.125(e), in computerized form,
satisfy the standard of permanency and are substantially equivalent to paper records if they
meet the following criteria:
1. All data entered into the computer system must be recorded into the database and
cannot be capable of being edited or modified at a later date without generating an
audit trail. The software system must retain any correction of errors as an entirely
new entry, without deleting or modifying the original entry. The system may allow
for entries in a notes column to explain any correction.
2. The system must have a reliable daily memory backup capability to protect the data
from accidental deletion or other system failure.
- 4 -
3. The system must meet the regulatory requirements for recording pertinent
information.
4. The system must allow queries by serial number, acquisition date, and name of the
manufacturer or importer. Commonly recognized trade names may be used when
recording the manufacturer/importer in the firearm description.
5. The FFL must periodically print all records from the system. Specifically, the
records must be printed:
(a) at least semiannually,
(b) upon request of an ATF officer,
(c) when the database is purged, and
(d) when the license is terminated
Printouts must be retained until the next printout is prepared.
The printouts must be limited to only the information required and specified by
regulation.
6. The FFL may download the required acquisition and disposition records to portable
storage devices such as Compact Discs (CDs), Digital Versatile Discs (DVDs), and
USB Flash Drives, instead of conducting the periodic printout of those records,
provided that the FFL presents the records in a printed format at ATF’s request. ATF
recognizes that printed records take up space and are not as easy to search as records
maintained in a digital format.
7. The computer printouts must contain firearms in inventory as well as all firearms
transferred during the period covered, sequentially by date of acquisition.
8. The system must record both the manufacturer and the importer of foreign-made
firearms.
9. Printouts may include antique firearms, but cannot include other merchandise.
However, antique firearms must be identified as “ANT” in the “firearm type” column.
10. The name and FFL number (if licensee) or name and address (if non-licensee) of the
supplier/consigner and the purchaser/transferee must be included in the computer
data. An ATF Form 4473 transaction number may be used in lieu of the address for
recording the transfer of a firearm to a non-licensee if the Forms 4473 are filed
numerically.
11. The system cannot rely upon invoices or other paper/manual systems to provide any
of the required information.
- 5 -
12. All required records including acquisition and disposition records, must remain at the
licensed premises.
13. Upon termination of a license, the FFL must provide an American Standard Code for
Information Interchange (ASCII) text file (in conformity with industry standards) and
a file description, in addition to printouts of all records, to the ATF Out-of-Business
Records Center. The printout and ASCII text file must contain the information as
prescribed by regulation. All records must be forwarded to the ATF Out-of-Business
Records Center in accordance with 27 CFR 478.127, including complete printouts,
and ASCII text file (and file description) of the A&D records, and all ATF Forms
4473.
Oh great, keep a bound book, or spend probably hundreds on the right data base and backup equipment. I got the darned thing to SAVE money.
__________________
People think I'm paranoid because I own guns. If I own guns, what do I have to be paranoid about?
gandog56. The program is $40 and all you have to do is print out your C&R guns every 6months, throwing away the previous printout. You back up to your computer so no extra money there. I've been using the free version, but it only lets me enter 7 guns and I have, at the moment 12 with more coming. I use it for all my guns as it's very easy to keep them separate and allows you to just print out the C&R guns. You can also put a photo of each gun in the record. To me, $40 is well worth it. You can find this program at MyGunDB Budsgunshop.com Edition $39.95 SHIPS FREE.
gandog56. The program is $40 and all you have to do is print out your C&R guns every 6months, throwing away the previous printout. You back up to your computer so no extra money there. I've been using the free version, but it only lets me enter 7 guns and I have, at the moment 12 with more coming. I use it for all my guns as it's very easy to keep them separate and allows you to just print out the C&R guns. You can also put a photo of each gun in the record. To me, $40 is well worth it. You can find this program at MyGunDB Budsgunshop.com Edition $39.95 SHIPS FREE.
Yeah, well the book I made cost me about 2 bucks.
__________________
People think I'm paranoid because I own guns. If I own guns, what do I have to be paranoid about?
LOL! Nothing wrong with a $2 book, that's for sure. I'm just a computer geek and if I can do it with a program, then by cracky I'll do it...LOL. Besides, if the ATF ever saw my writing and printing they'd probably fine me for NOT using a computer program...hehehehehehe. I also like the idea I can use the same program for all my other guns and it keeps them apart.
18Likes
??????? 
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Curio Book 
Ty! 
